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Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

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whodare

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Look I'm honestly doing the same thing anyone in this thread trying to help is, help you improve your results.

I'm pointing out that 99% of the time there is going to be a better, more effective, more efficient method to achieve the same results, or even surpass what defoliation ever has to offer.

It has it's place, but it really should be limited, and other avenues pursued first.


People in this thread have no idea what I'm involved with or done, just because I don't document everything I see and do doesn't mean I don't have experience.


Example,

my plants eat 20-50 ppms daily when growing vigorously. They drink a gallon per plant of water or more everyday. When stripped down before they go into flower, they eat maybe 10ppms and drink less than half of what is normal, in my experience this stalling lasts for 3-5 days if the plants were in the peak of health.

So that to me is definitive proof that they stop eating, and use reserves to repair growth, as root growth is stalled also. They drink significantly less after also which proves photosynthesis and plant growth have stalled and gone into stress/repair mode.

Now the question is why would you want to be more aggressive than that by defoliating, when my method achieves the same result. Both stress the plant but I do it right before flower so they can recover and again right before the end of stretch as not to stall swell mode.

Defoliating surely has the same effct but to a greater extent on plants that my pruning does as your removing even more leaf surface area. See when leafs are removed you are reducing the plants ability to uptake water and nutrients, as they sweat juices out leafs during the day up taking nutrients along the way.

Training plants laterally should be enough to promote strong non-dominant branching, and with a good prune after stretch you should be left with a canopy about 18 inches thick. Plants reflect green light, red light is absorbed or passes through the leafs, about 80-90% passes through.

I get strong branching because I use high watts per sqft, that right there will do more good for you than defoliating, at least veg under your flower wattage.


And honestly you didnt defoliate in those pics, not as described by the op.
 

Jbonez

Active member
Veteran
Whodare, fever, while Im not taking sides, I do vehemently respect both of your intellectual capacities, and at this point I think you are wasting your time..

Problem is, with the unlimited variables that go into a grow, there is no objective way of saying someone is truly right or wrong, who are you trying to convince?

As for your opposition, I ask the same...
 

whodare

Active member
Veteran
Not convince fanatics, but offer another option, and present counter arguments so this isn't a big circle jerk of "oh rip em" "pull it" "cut it off". All with little to no controls and zero scientifically viable evidence, while I can provide thousands of scholarly articles studing the damage of defoliation, or when to implement, which is not often, and never in flower.

Some people, such as yourself, are willing to be objective, and can understand that I'm not knocking the method, just being realistic.

With a half million views and rising because of sticky status, I hope I can help at least one person find the better option than defoliation to increase yield, cause there is ,most likely, a better option.
 

iampolluted

Active member
whodare...i completely agree with your 1st paragraph. it does have it's place, and in the right space, hands, and strain it can help greatly. lots of people try various methods to improve yield. me being one. everyone does it until they find something they can work with that actually works. it's why people choose scrogs, sogs, verts, trees, you get the idea. we all want the same thing, more bud. this tech. helps some people. it won't help others.

i'm glad we can agree on that.

i'm not sure of what you're growing in, but if you're pulling leaves you're removing sugar producers. growth stalls when the smaller leaves have to work over time to produce the sugars needed to produce new leaf. try adding some after a decent prune, or when you see they aren't eating after doing so. if the plants start to take up more water, you'll know it's working to fill in the gaps in translocation that would have been filled with glucose from the leaves before the cut. imo, it should help speed things up because the little leaves won't be working as hard to keep the plant from losing sugars in a normal nutrient cycle.

i think a simple test could help to prove everything i've stated. i would seriously try it myself but i have no way to measure anything like that. organics doesn't give me specifics...but i am curious as hell to see if my theory is correct.

did that make sense? cuz i'm kinda high right now.
 

Jbonez

Active member
Veteran
With a half million views and rising because of sticky status, I hope I can help at least one person find the better option than defoliation to increase yield, cause there is ,most likely, a better option.

This statement should be stickied..

But you have to understand, younger dudes in this game dont care about learning shit, its all about what the other guy is doing to get weight... Like me, I started running vert cuz I saw dudes getting weight, still took me a few runs to see the benefits, Id say that goes with any style of growing.

So you are effectively beating a dead horse, no?

I appreciate your stance, but its falling on def ears imo... You are presenting a logic, sometimes logic is a language people dont speak... Yet we try...

either way.. Ill post my personal results, I just wanna see how this defoled chem starts acting... If it stretches the same, the math is in my favor, if not, Ill be wasting light..
 

whodare

Active member
Veteran
i'm not sure of what you're growing in, but if you're pulling leaves you're removing sugar producers. growth stalls when the smaller leaves have to work over time to produce the sugars needed to produce new leaf. try adding some after a decent prune, or when you see they aren't eating after doing so. if the plants start to take up more water, you'll know it's working to fill in the gaps in translocation that would have been filled with glucose from the leaves before the cut. imo, it should help speed things up because the little leaves won't be working as hard to keep the plant from losing sugars in a normal nutrient cycle.

i think a simple test could help to prove everything i've stated. i would seriously try it myself but i have no way to measure anything like that. organics doesn't give me specifics...but i am curious as hell to see if my theory is correct.

did that make sense? cuz i'm kinda high right now.

I'm in hydro, rdwc.

Leafs are more than sugar producers, they are what brings water carrying nutrients into the top growth by sweating out of the stomata, creating a sucking effect, capillary action only gets you so far. (osmosis is how they get in there in the first place)

So even if plants could use the sucrose your saying to feed, it's ability to feed is reduced making it moot, and more than just sugar is needed to regrow what was taken.

They wouldn't start drinking more after applying sugar because sugar has nothing to do with nutrient uptake, leaf surfàce area being reduced water demand and until, the plant recovers water uptake will be hindered regardless of sucrose in the rootzone.

That is why I prune and leave the leafs I can while removing the sucker growth, it gets rid of stuff that would never have been much even with defoliation while leaving the leafs behind to continue photosynthesis.

There is no way a leaf 1/10 the size of another is capable of the same energy poduction and liquid translocation as the larger on, period.
 

whodare

Active member
Veteran
This statement should be stickied..

But you have to understand, younger dudes in this game dont care about learning shit, its all about what the other guy is doing to get weight... Like me, I started running vert cuz I saw dudes getting weight, still took me a few runs to see the benefits, Id say that goes with any style of growing.

So you are effectively beating a dead horse, no?

I appreciate your stance, but its falling on def ears imo... You are presenting a logic, sometimes logic is a language people dont speak... Yet we try...

either way.. Ill post my personal results, I just wanna see how this defoled chem starts acting... If it stretches the same, the math is in my favor, if not, Ill be wasting light..

I think it a bit naive to think my advice is falling on deaf ears, many people don't post in this thread just read. No offense (and that's not to say some people wont completely ignore me but I think most will read at least)

Maybe I have a fetish for flogging deceased hay-burners lol

Hope it works for ya.
 

Jbonez

Active member
Veteran
I think it a bit naive to think my advice is falling on deaf ears, many people don't post in this thread just read. No offense (and that's not to say some people wont completely ignore me but I think most will read at least)

Maybe I have a fetish for flogging deceased hay-burners lol

Hope it works for ya.

Touche, I digress...

But in light of the opposition, are you saying that challenging these guys with logic is truly benefiting anyone?

lol dont answer that, I just got the answer I was looking for....

Im not one to go out of my way to get my logic across, Ill present the data, if ya want it go ahead..

Some people, like yourself, are a little more selfless than others, Im just not exactly one of them, perhaps its a character flaw..

We are all a mix of Feelers and Thinkers. On the MBTI for example I am 100% Thinking, zero feeling, so with a dominant Ti function, its nearly impossible for me to "care" what others think, so long as the data is acceptable.. I will put my foot down if data is misconstrued, however if someone isnt capable of receiving it, its moot, and I move on.
 

rasputin

The Mad Monk
Veteran
I think that if nothing else Whodare is providing a necessary counterpoint to this discussion by asking questions to those in favor. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and so far in this thread we've got a lot of the former, little of the latter.

That said, there is definitely a sense of redundancy in this thread between fans and skeptics. The same argument seems to be rehashed every few pages.

As for me, I just tuck fan leaves if they're in the way or pluck them off if they're shading a lower growth site. But I have no misconception as to how this relates to overall yield. For that I focus on light, genetics, and environment.

And I hear ya, Jbonez. I'm similar in that regard but try to remind myself that ultimately, I'm dealing with other people and regardless of our opinion or approach we should respect one another or at least maintain some sense of civility. It says more about me if I start to devolve to someone else's level of personal insults, et al because of a simple disagreement than it does the person tossing out the insults. And more importantly, it's not going to ruin my day if someone doesn't "get it". That's not my job, after all. It is their own.
 

whodare

Active member
Veteran
..

But in light of the opposition, are you saying that challenging these guys with logic is truly benefiting anyone?

.

Maybe my debate skills lol, but really, idk :shrug:

I've gotten iam to agree with me, that's progress, right? Lol
 

St3ve

Member
Crying? Lol ok sure.

Great results? Only ones I see being posted belong to people who don't defoliate.





I know for a fact that if you squeezed out a few extra grams defoliating then you can improve in many other aspects of your grow first.

Not a single person in here has provided a side by side, the best we get are pictures of different grows from different times, probably different weather. were plants the same size, veg time the sameeverything identical.

No, not one clear concise side by side to show the effects. Out of all the people in this thread you would think you would have someone with a science background come forward willing to prove it either way.

If it works for you good, but having seen most of the defoliators gardens I'd say they have a whole lot of improving to do before they can say it was defoliation that pushed them over the edge of max yield.







Some eye candy at day 34

View Image


View Image

as always, you and all the other naysayers cherry pick certain sentences to respond on.
 

St3ve

Member
Im starting see that defoliating really takes its toll on the plants upward growth, Id say square footage of actual foliage is the near the same as before I pulled leaves, just that instead of a bunch of big leaves, the plant stopped "upward" growth and put out a fuck load of little leaves.. Again, this imvho can only be implemented in veg to see benefits in bloom.

If you dont have enough veg time to defoliate and then let them resume to get the size you want before the flip, dont waste your time, otherwise, im seeing benefits due to my veg time...

There is no right way to defend this or not, it is simply what it is, just another method of training.. Same reason we dont top and supercrop our gals in late bloom... I wont be pulling any leaves after the flip, which is in like 45 minutes.. lol..

You got it.. which is exactly what the op has been saying since the very first post in this thread.
 

St3ve

Member
Looks like you over veg'd those plants. Maybe that's why defoliation helped, your space was overgrown reducing you possible yield.

All you have to do is cut a few days off veg, and now that you know how they stretch you should know how big to get them before flip.

Days saved in veg add up to more runs per year which would increase your yield more than defo ever could

sigh.. have you even read this thread whodare?

If you veg in the same space as you flower then you are correct. However, as the op mentioned, and me, and everyone else that uses this, it only increases yield if you have a separate veg area.

My flower room is always flowering.. bar none. The day I chop, I move all the plants finished out of the flower room, move all the vegged plants in, and then I start trimming. Never missing a beat.
 

Jbonez

Active member
Veteran
I think that if nothing else Whodare is providing a necessary counterpoint to this discussion by asking questions to those in favor. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and so far in this thread we've got a lot of the former, little of the latter.

That said, there is definitely a sense of redundancy in this thread between fans and skeptics. The same argument seems to be rehashed every few pages.

As for me, I just tuck fan leaves if they're in the way or pluck them off if they're shading a lower growth site. But I have no misconception as to how this relates to overall yield. For that I focus on light, genetics, and environment.

And I hear ya, Jbonez. I'm similar in that regard but try to remind myself that ultimately, I'm dealing with other people and regardless of our opinion or approach we should respect one another or at least maintain some sense of civility. It says more about me if I start to devolve to someone else's level of personal insults, et al because of a simple disagreement than it does the person tossing out the insults. And more importantly, it's not going to ruin my day if someone doesn't "get it". That's not my job, after all. It is their own.

All I want to say is that I am "that" much better a person after this post, well played friend, I enjoy your type in any discussion.
 

Jbonez

Active member
Veteran
You got it.. which is exactly what the op has been saying since the very first post in this thread.


Well in that case, I wish I woulda chimed in a few hundred pages ago.

No one is arguing what Ive submitted as proof.
 

5th

Active member
Veteran
Yeah its more of a "Point, Counter Point" thing.
Sometimes entertaining, mostly not.
Sometimes informative, mostly not.

I'm not going to hop on and tell "who" he's wrong about agressive pruning stunting or slowing a plant. Im just chalking it up to his personal experience and his opinion. My experience has been the exact opposite. (I strip them bitches naked like the OP)

All this "hard data" is laughable. Too many grow spots...too many variables. One can go on for days about sugars n' whatnot...they just can't provide any info on the experiment, control, nute delivery...any of it.
(but 5th I read it on the net...thats grade six science)

Fuck all that.

Remember Pluto? Used to be a planet. We accepted it because it was science, hard proof, saw it with our own damn eyes even...
Not the case.
Same with flora n' fauna...we've got it all figured out don't we? We can rip one of these fuckers n' half, stick it under a microscope and look at it in a cellular state. Been doing it for decades. But now we're figuring out some of these cells do more then photosynthesis...they've had other properties for millions of years. We just never thought to look.

Fuck I'm stoned, so yeah...I'm of the opinion (and someone else mentioned it) "it works in some gardens, not so much in others". Works pretty damn good in my garden actually. With science working overtime the past three decades...I think it won't be long before the entire growing community is turned on its ear and we're all growing more dope then we can handle...well here's hoping so.

:tiphat:
 

Bassy59

Member
would love to see some harvest pics or close to chop day pics IMO i am skeptical of your 24 - 32 oz harvest :laughing:

Stick your skepticism right up your ass. This is wet weight 1 plant on harvest day.

You're the one that has not proven even one of your claims. Nor when I challenged your #'s were you able to refute me. You grow nice plants, but you are not the all-knowing person you think you are.

Furthermore, when the owner of the Nutrient maker that I use, whom has a masters degree in this shit and numerous other degrees, tells me he's all for my defoliation technique and does it himself on MJ, I'll take his word vs your little garden center all day long.

Again, this is WET WEIGHT OF ONE PLANT, last grow, harvested 9/20/12, Kosher Kush. Dry weight was 10.43oz. My weight is jr in comparison to D9's and others that HAVE POSTED IN THIS THREAD THEIR RESULTS!
 

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whodare

Active member
Veteran
veg time, canopy space, plant numbers, veg wattage, any other training methods, hydro/dirt?

care to answer that?
 

St3ve

Member
All I want to say is that I am "that" much better a person after this post, well played friend, I enjoy your type in any discussion.

I agree.. and the problem Rasputin, is that people are coming in here with great yields on their own, without having been successful using this technique, and they say it doesn't work. How someone can say something doesn't work who can't do it is just saddening. :(
 

Bassy59

Member
Approx 5 weeks veg time. Can't say for sure as I didn't note transplant of seedling from root riot cube to buckets. 220w T5HO

4 plants in 4x4 tent, RDWC. Bent to hell and back so they wouldnt run into the 1k light in flower. Canopy was a literal blanket of laterally placed bud.

Had I vegged a little less and again, more laterally, yield would have been higher. But still, pics of above weight was only 1 plant in this grow.
 

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