Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[DrFever]

i dont like to get in the middle of this but i got to chime in for the vert side... i am not bashing horizontal in any way because i know that great yields can be achieved in it also...but usually it takes some type of pruning, topping, at the very minimum lower branch removal, etc... like you said to get 640 tops..

i can understand with the defoliation.. but vert increases your yeilds, the same way LST does in horizontal..

we all know that LST works, there is a science behind it: a plant grows naturally with a main cola...you train the main cola sideways, and the plant looks for a new main cola (usually the next highest branch)...you keep training and training and eventually you have a bunch of "mini-tops" all evenly spaced from the light..and increase your yeilds

vert is essentially the same thing, except the plants grow that way without training.. most of the yield increase in vert comes from 2 main things: increase of canopy space compared to floor space...and the absolute absence of larf

sure the light may lose intensity and bounce around 360 degrees, but we just make sure we have plants to catch it, and keep our plants closer

i dont have enough fingers to count why i switched to vert, but heat issues was at the bottom, or not even on there at all

your plants look great and your yeilds are amazing i am not arguing that... but you say you got 6lbs under 2k with a reflector...so what do you think would happen if you removed your reflector and had the same plants on the ceiling growing downwards also????

but these, sometimes heated, debates/discussions are a great thing... if no one questioned anything we might still believe the world to be flat...most of science is theory and indoor growing hasnt been around that long, and is probably gonna be around for a long time

i am not bashing vert either and yes great results on both ends of them grows

anyone using a reflector is not getting 100% usage of available light. you're losing over 50% of the light to reflection from the reflector. reflected light is not as intense as direct light. it's common sense. a light without a reflector will be brighter and more intense than one in a reflector. even the best reflector on the planet cannot compete with a bare bulb. indirect lighting is never going to equal direct lighting.

circling plants around the lights wastes nothing, except for the light that passes by the plant, which is why we have white or reflective walls. vert growers use the direct light from the bulb on all it's sides and rely on the intensity of the light (once it passes the plants) to reflect it back from the walls, or we turn our plants to ensure even coverage on the back side. people like heath use more lights to surround plants so they don't have to turn em. in my case, i have plants on 3 walls, and in between 4 1k bare bulbs. there is no shade anywhere in the room unless it's shaded by leaf.

i see no decrease in intensity using a bare bulb with 360 degrees of light. the light output is the same regardless of whether there is a reflector or not. a reflector is going to reduce intensity because 1/2 of it is refracted light.

coming from someone that thinks feeding there plant sugars your words mean nothing ???
open reflectors anyone with a brain will tell you that a light with reflector will reflect all the light to the directed area and yes it will be all of light
street lights use a reflector for a reason so all light points down onto the street
even my 8 year old kid could tell you with his simple experiment with a flash light flash light on pointing send all energy to that area you see further etc now take the reflector out of it and pow it lights your area but you can see 10 feet ahead of you
like before
iampoluted everytime you post it makes nonsense really

 

[iampolluted]

i've already presented studies from the 60's that states plants CAN absorb simple sugars if needed. if you choose to disbelieve the science so be it, not my fault, nor do i care.

thinking a reflector will outperform a bare bulb is lunacy and there are plenty of growers (on here and worldwide) using such, that will back up my claims.

oh yeah....light poles....i don't drive 30' off the ground so what fucking purpose would it serve it use a bare bulb? none. it's not brighter from a reflector, it's directional. i have 360 degrees of light while you are really only using 180 degrees with the rest being refracted, in effect losing intensity by hitting the reflector and bouncing back. take a flashlight, and shine it on your reflector, then tell me the light bouncing back is as bright as it would be if you looked directly at it.

ps...let your 8 yr old edit your posts....he can probably show you where the periods go so your posts actually make some fucking sort of sense.

 

[Jbonez]

IAP, Doc is one of the guys that gets weight because of his veg time, and his grow is dialed, the average grower wouldnt do what he is doing, so his way of using reflectors is the most efficient hands down.. Compare that to an inefficient vertical grow and he could more than likely trump that grower.

You are both contesting each other, however, the argument may be pointless as variables not mentioned or observed directly are keeping the nature of the difference out of the convo..

Just from what I am seeing, you both are respectively "correct"..

 

[DrFever]

jbonez after xmass i am doing a vert 7 k c02 injected but the kicker is 2 lights will be horizontal

 

[iampolluted]

i can agree with that...hori's have their place, but to say a hori produces more light is not correct.

 

[vspin]

open reflectors anyone with a brain will tell you that a light with reflector will reflect all the light to the directed area and yes it will be all of light.

I think it's determined by the effectiveness of the reflector (obviously). However, I don't think there is any reflector on the market that reflects all light. Some light is going to be absorbed as heat, if I'm not mistaken..?

 

[Jbonez]

I think it's determined by the effectiveness of the reflector (obviously). However, I don't think there is any reflector on the market that reflects all light. Some light is going to be absorbed as heat, if I'm not mistaken..?

I think its determined by the effectiveness of the grower..

 

[vspin]

I think its determined by the effectiveness of the grower..

How so? How would an effective grower reflect 100% of light? If true, I'm in trouble.

 

[DrFever]

also diffuse light from a reflector is better used and better penetrates the canopy because it doesnt come from a point source.

 

[Jbonez]

also diffuse light from a reflector is better used and better penetrates the canopy because it doesnt come from a point source.

This is parmount amongst orchid growers, or so Im told...

Vspin, that distinction can only be made if every grower grows the same exact way, it simply doesnt matter that much, if say environment is limiting the plants ability to use that light in the first place for example, amongst other variables to long to list..

Srry, thats just how my brain works.. Check out what BST is doing with custom built reflectors and Orca film.. you will see what I mean.

 

[vspin]

This is parmount amongst orchid growers, or so Im told...

Vspin, that distinction can only be made if every grower grows the same exact way, it simply doesnt matter that much, if say environment is limiting the plants ability to use that light in the first place for example, amongst other variables to long to list..

Srry, thats just how my brain works.. Check out what BST is doing with custom built reflectors and Orca film.. you will see what I mean.

Yeah, I see. I'm not opposed to reflectors, I'm just saying that 100% light reflection will never occur without light being absorbed as heat, even though very minimal in the best hands.

 

[vspin]

Edit: Yeah, I see. I'm not opposed to reflectors, I'm just saying that 100% light reflection will never occur since light is going to be absorbed as heat, even though very minimal in the best hands with the best materials.

 

[Jbonez]

Yeah, I see. I'm not opposed to reflectors, I'm just saying that 100% light reflection will never occur without light being absorbed as heat, even though very minimal in the best hands.

The light itself is radiated as heat.. The reflector as I understand it merely reduces the intensity of the light, as light is traveling further in order to reach the canopy, the inverse square says that the further light travels, intensity will be exponentially diminished..

I guess thats what I meant.

Photons be trippin....

 

[Bud buster]

Reflectors do give back 90% of the light coming from the back 180 of the bulb but with vertical you can get more cubic feet of usable space with equal lumens hitting the plant because with horizontal you usually have to keep the lights farther away for heat and canopy spread with vertical you can keep the plants closer making up the difference compared to extra reflected light from a hood.

 

[DrFever]

Reflectors do give back 90% of the light coming from the back 180 of the bulb but with vertical you can get more cubic feet of usable space with equal lumens hitting the plant because with horizontal you usually have to keep the lights farther away for heat and canopy spread with vertical you can keep the plants closer making up the difference compared to extra reflected light from a hood.

that is with open reflectors if you have reflectors with glass in front then again you will lose efficiency for instance once my grow is done i will have 6- 8" of bud above net and another 6" of bud below it all joined up there are down falls on both verts an horizontals yes you can place plants closer in vert but again the light does diminish faster cause its source radiant heat is being spread 360 degrees .
In horizontal unless you got a good dialed in room good cold air hovering above plants you can easily fry them vert growers need many lights to account for the lose in intensity where as horizontal many growers have to keep lights raised higher
1000 watts are a fckin amazing bulb the power they pump out Radiant heat is incredible the shure force of penetration is incredible efficient not as good as lets say a 600 but
penetration for instance 1000 watt does not have to be 16 " from tops to get full power to them they can be as far as 2 feet + and you will get full penetration power 600's lose there power at a good rate once you start placing them further away from a plant place a plant in a vert grow 3 feet away and she will stretch like a mofo

 

[Bud buster]

They both have there merits depending on the setup and easy access but most of the indoor trees are vertical which you are going to do with two top & 7 vertical lights that is as close to the sun pattern as you can get. Use hoods for any verticals that aren`t surrounded by plants. Alot of times they only stack 400 600 but a 1000 will give you lots of spread in height 4 or 5 feet so with 360 you can cover a 12 or 16 foot circle at stalk centers so the whole bulb can light 12 x 4 = 48sqft or 16 x 5 = 80sqft with a hood 5 x 5 = 25sqft or 6 x 6 = 32sqft.

 

[medicalmj]

that is with open reflectors if you have reflectors with glass in front then again you will lose efficiency for instance once my grow is done i will have 6- 8" of bud above net and another 6" of bud below it all joined up there are down falls on both verts an horizontals yes you can place plants closer in vert but again the light does diminish faster cause its source radiant heat is being spread 360 degrees .
In horizontal unless you got a good dialed in room good cold air hovering above plants you can easily fry them vert growers need many lights to account for the lose in intensity where as horizontal many growers have to keep lights raised higher
1000 watts are a fckin amazing bulb the power they pump out Radiant heat is incredible the shure force of penetration is incredible efficient not as good as lets say a 600 but
penetration for instance 1000 watt does not have to be 16 " from tops to get full power to them they can be as far as 2 feet + and you will get full penetration power 600's lose there power at a good rate once you start placing them further away from a plant place a plant in a vert grow 3 feet away and she will stretch like a mofo

Hey Doc I almost bought a diffuser the other day while trying to spend some money at my local "toy/candy" store. I also pulled the glass and am doing something a little different with ventilation now that its not 100 outside. So what have you noticed in difference w and w/o.

 

[DrFever]

Are you serious would love to see what they look like at toy and candy store you got any links ????
i have some metal always wanted to make my own or just say fck it and just buy them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKA4IOuNX8Q

 

[Jbonez]

Im not gonna so far as to advocate this method full on as of yet..

But here are some +'s for the advocates, and what Im seeing thusfar, and why I am liking it.

Pulling leaves does in fact stunt growth. Ive seen this as a result, however, and this is a big however, I am seeing far more leaf sites emerging as it appears and I am thinkin that when I bloom this bitch, she is going to have less inter nodal spacing hands down, so its shaping up to look like a success.. This obviously must be started in veg to see results in the future, again, just from my subjective observation..

So far the plants while not growing as fast, are growing more sites for potential, much less clones are also a result in the sense that they are smaller, but I dont grow moms so I rarely need a lot of cuts..

Id say keeping the plant growing healthy and free of any def's is tantamount in keeping things moving as fast as possible growth wise.

here is my chemD's progress, Im only gonna do this to her for now because I know her very well and if I yield more than Ive grown accustom to, then Ill put my name on it..

I think my vertical homies will agree that more uniform sites are a good thing, is it because of the defol? Im saying yes for now..

 

[DrFever]

Im not gonna so far as to advocate this method full on as of yet..

But here are some +'s for the advocates, and what Im seeing thusfar, and why I am liking it.

Pulling leaves does in fact stunt growth. Ive seen this as a result, however, and this is a big however, I am seeing far more leaf sites emerging as it appears and I am thinkin that when I bloom this bitch, she is going to have less inter nodal spacing hands down, so its shaping up to look like a success.. This obviously must be started in veg to see results in the future, again, just from my subjective observation..

So far the plants while not growing as fast, are growing more sites for potential, much less clones are also a result in the sense that they are smaller, but I dont grow moms so I rarely need a lot of cuts..

Id say keeping the plant growing healthy and free of any def's is tantamount in keeping things moving as fast as possible growth wise.

here is my chemD's progress, Im only gonna do this to her for now because I know her very well and if I yield more than Ive grown accustom to, than Ill put my name on it..

I think my vertical homies will agree that more uniform sites are a good thing, is it because of the defol? Im saying yes for now..
View Image

To bad you didn't have same plant side by side cause with the lost time from stress you would probably have 50 more shoots just from super cropping and or fimming picture 410 is one plant all from cropping no stress but amazing growth