Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[Greensub]

a better measurement would be weight / watt / space / time.

grams per watt per cubic foot over the course of a year, perhaps.

A 10% increase in yield per space could not be counted as an increase if it took 10% longer, or 25% more wattage, for example.

100% completely agree... I've always looked at it that way, nice eloquent way of expressing it. A huge variable here is time... veg time (some people can afford, some can't), it's an underlying cost of time and space.

actually now that I think about (I'm not great at math) a nice way of putting it would be...

Damn, that was a 10 minute pause... how would you express

weight = watt per cubic foot over time

algebraically??? (anyone???)

 

[gnarly]

Mate this is the problem. People say 10-15% increase with absolutely no evidence.

In fact the evidence apears to be the opposite.

Look at the two plants above for example. The defoliated one looks to be at least 10-15% smaller.

The very beginning of this discourse talks about an important feature that is missed/ignored in that picture you mention: The defoliated vegging plants require longer time to achieve the same desired plant sizes.

So to be fair in comparison, one would be vegging plants from various clonings and defoliating SOME of them. Then fill two equal-sized, equally lit, canopies --- one canopy with the leafy (maybe lollipopped or whatevs) and one canopy with the defoliated. And you would do it with equally SIZED plants, not equally AGED -- this is implicit in the fact that your defoliated plants require longer to reach your grows' target plant size.

For some people veg time matters, and for others it doesn't. Now I have no experience or opinion on this other than my anecdotal observations from experience where light-defoliation of the highest fan leaves seems to help. But I would speculate that to those whose veg time matters, there may be a negative impact by defoliation. I have read some noting that the defoliated ripen faster and require shorter flower; to that point I have not seen any evidence.

In all cases, I was excited in the first several pages at how civil the thread was. And then moving to the end I come to see people getting overly-argumentative and personal... tsk tsk. We can all be better than that.

 

[gnarly]

100% completely agree... I've always looked at it that way, nice eloquent way of expressing it. A huge variable here is time... veg time (some people can afford, some can't), it's an underlying cost of time and space.

actually now that I think about (I'm not great at math) a nice way of putting it would be...

Damn, that was a 10 minute pause... how would you express

weight = watt per cubic foot over time

algebraically??? (anyone???)

What I think you want is all of your math to produce a number with the unit (g*h / w*m^3).

But what I think would be best with those variables: Grams / (watts * hours * volume).

This math should compare your YIELD to account for energy, time, and volume. Thus with a given yield, if it took more energy, you get a smaller number --- more time, smaller number --- more volume, smaller number... And if with the same energy/time/volume you get a greater yield, your number goes up... etc etc.
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One note I would add to your idea is that 'space' or volume or cubic feet, whatever --- should indicate that of the CANOPY, not of the ROOM. But then again, I suppose if you were also trying to account for people who waste space or could do stuff like layer two grows into one room or something (like on a rack)....

In the end, its really a far more complex thing..... cost of kwh... cost of nutrients... cost of equipment... the time it takes to grow (as you mentioned) but also the time invested by the grower. Do you ding someone for not going wall to wall with the canopy and leaving room? .. brainstorm a bit and you'll keep thinking up relative factors..

Uggh.. too much offtopic, haha. Mods, please don't hate me for trying to help.

 

[Greensub]

laughably, it would be the same thing you quoted where 'space' is the cubic foot volume.

to produce comparable numbers, you can't have weight on the other side of the '=' (equation). What you want is all of your math to produce a number with the unit (g*h / w*m^3).

Thanks, I knew someone would come up with something...
----------------

One note I would add to your idea is that 'space' or volume or cubic feet, whatever --- should indicate that of the CANOPY, not of the ROOM. But then again, I suppose if you were also trying to account for people who waste space or could do stuff like layer two grows into one room or something (like on a rack)....

I think the argument here then would be whether the canopy is expressed as two dimensional or three dimensional.

In the end, its really a far more complex thing..... cost of kwh... cost of nutrients... cost of equipment... the time it takes to grow (as you mentioned) but also the time invested by the grower. Do you ding someone for not going wall to wall with the canopy and leaving room? .. brainstorm a bit and you'll keep thinking up relative factors..

Uggh.. too much offtopic, haha. Mods, please don't hate me for trying to help.

ya... that's true, but then again... all those things do matter, we all make decisions about them everyday.

 

[slowandeasy]

you're comparing increased canopy area AND plant count. that's not very fair.

Within reason, plant count is not a factor.

I am not comparing increased canopy area and plant count...I am saying GPW is not a fair measurement. If you increase your canopy and your plant count with the same light, your GPW should be higher. Having a smaller area with the same light...your GPW should be lower. That is why it is not accurate. Plant count matters, if you can put more plants under the same light, without going too big, your GPW will be more. No comparison. Same WATTS, different GRAMS. A 600 watt HPS might produce 10 oz in a 3x3 tent, but 14 oz in a 4x4 tent...Same WATTS, different GRAMS. Space and plant count matter.

 

[Boerman]

Yeah 3 different strains of mine all seem to finish faster from defoliating, that is the ONLY thing different from previous runs. My Sour Bubble is the only one I will never do it to again. Looks like you grow mostly Indica plants? For me, defoliating ruined my Sour Bubble...so it is strain dependent I believe. Defoliating in VEG is much different than just defoliating in Flower. You are right, it stresses the plant and stunts it...but given enough time it works well. Adding time to a grow is a waste...but if you have to Veg a long time it can be beneficial.

I have not experienced the stunting. I am running Third Dimension, which I have been growing for over 4 years, and BOG Sweet Cindy99, which I'd guess is more Indica dom. But I suspect that I may be doing it slightly different than you. Most people seem to be plucking leaves all at once. I am doing it on a more continual basis. On the main stem I wait until the new branch/stem is at least half an inch long, preferable starting to spread out the new little leaves. On all side branches I tend to wait a little longer. This seems to allow the side branches to grow longer/faster than the main stem. By the time I put them into flower, the lower branches are close to, or even with the top of the main stem. Looks to me like they have been FIMd. I didn't start out trying to do anything other than keep the nodes shorter so I wasn't paying that close of attention to the difference in treatment that parts of the plant were getting. Since I noticed the effect, I have been trying to pay closer attention to when I pluck certain parts of the plant. Right now its more of an art than a science, but those are the general principles that I have been going on. This is a perpetual grow on a 5 day schedule. I added 2 plants in veg (10 days) to adjust for the anticipated stunting but, if anything, by removing only 1-4 leaves per day, there has been no noticed stunting and they actually seem to be ready for flower a little sooner. I am going to have to take the extra veg plants back out.

In flower, I am doing it similarly. I actually measured plants every day to get the exact number of days each cut took to stretch. As stated in a previous post, I think that the primary function of the fan leaves is over with the end of stretch. At that point I take the top few fans, maybe 1/4 of the height of the plant. Then I pluck only the fans, 1 branch a day as I go down the plant. So there's no great shock all at one time to cause stunting. I don't generally take leaves that are part of the bud cluster unless they have an easily visible stem and no frost. I am very pleased with the results.

 

[slowandeasy]

I have not experienced the stunting. I am running Third Dimension, which I have been growing for over 4 years, and BOG Sweet Cindy99, which I'd guess is more Indica dom. But I suspect that I may be doing it slightly different than you. Most people seem to be plucking leaves all at once. I am doing it on a more continual basis. On the main stem I wait until the new branch/stem is at least half an inch long, preferable starting to spread out the new little leaves. On all side branches I tend to wait a little longer. This seems to allow the side branches to grow longer/faster than the main stem. By the time I put them into flower, the lower branches are close to, or even with the top of the main stem. Looks to me like they have been FIMd. I didn't start out trying to do anything other than keep the nodes shorter so I wasn't paying that close of attention to the difference in treatment that parts of the plant were getting. Since I noticed the effect, I have been trying to pay closer attention to when I pluck certain parts of the plant. Right now its more of an art than a science, but those are the general principles that I have been going on. This is a perpetual grow on a 5 day schedule. I added 2 plants in veg (10 days) to adjust for the anticipated stunting but, if anything, by removing only 1-4 leaves per day, there has been no noticed stunting and they actually seem to be ready for flower a little sooner. I am going to have to take the extra veg plants back out.

In flower, I am doing it similarly. I actually measured plants every day to get the exact number of days each cut took to stretch. As stated in a previous post, I think that the primary function of the fan leaves is over with the end of stretch. At that point I take the top few fans, maybe 1/4 of the height of the plant. Then I pluck only the fans, 1 branch a day as I go down the plant. So there's no great shock all at one time to cause stunting. I don't generally take leaves that are part of the bud cluster unless they have an easily visible stem and no frost. I am very pleased with the results.

Cool, but you are not defoliating...you are lightly pruning. If you take too many at once, it will stunt your plant...but that is a good thing for people who lack height. Defoliating is more than light pruning. I agree in flower I wait until after the stretch, fan leaf production and root production halt and energy goes to budding. For me defoliating my Sour Bubble was counter productive, and I believe it is strain dependent. Really glad it is working well for you, please keep updates coming.

 

[Isokarva]

I don't know if this has been asked before on this thread and i cba to go thru all 173 pages.
Is defoliation effective with cfl lights ? what do you think guys

 

[gnarly]

I am not comparing increased canopy area and plant count...I am saying GPW is not a fair measurement. If you increase your canopy and your plant count with the same light, your GPW should be higher. Having a smaller area with the same light...your GPW should be lower. That is why it is not accurate. Plant count matters, if you can put more plants under the same light, without going too big, your GPW will be more. No comparison. Same WATTS, different GRAMS. A 600 watt HPS might produce 10 oz in a 3x3 tent, but 14 oz in a 4x4 tent...Same WATTS, different GRAMS. Space and plant count matter.

I agree that space matters. But I also reiterate that I disagree about plant count, and obviously within reason. There is a point in which you need another plant, but for most people's sakes indoor they are not doing it. I can tell you right now its easy to fill a 3x3 area with one 5gal pot of coco and a baddie plant netted out. Now if you're trying to fill a space larger than that, you probably need to increase plant number. Like I said, within reason.

 

[Greensub]

I don't know if this has been asked before on this thread and i cba to go thru all 173 pages.
Is defoliation effective with cfl lights ? what do you think guys

It can if done for the right reasons... it really would be useful to go back through the 173 pages, there's a lot of good info there, but it's quite complicated.

It involves a lot more than just tearing leaves off.

 

[slowandeasy]

I agree that space matters. But I also reiterate that I disagree about plant count, and obviously within reason. There is a point in which you need another plant, but for most people's sakes indoor they are not doing it. I can tell you right now its easy to fill a 3x3 area with one 5gal pot of coco and a baddie plant netted out. Now if you're trying to fill a space larger than that, you probably need to increase plant number. Like I said, within reason.

Why on earth would you use a 5 gal pot in a 3x3 area to begin with? You might fit one or 2 plants in that space. The person we are talking about uses 2 liter bottles of Coke. Space and plant count matter. BTW using 5 Gal of Coco is a waste, get yourself some 1 or 2 Gal Smart Pots...5 Gal of Coco is a waste unless you are growing trees

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Why on earth would you use a 5 gal pot in a 3x3 area to begin with? You might fit one or 2 plants in that space. The person we are talking about uses 2 liter bottles of Coke. Space and plant count matter. BTW using 5 Gal of Coco is a waste, get yourself some 1 or 2 Gal Smart Pots...5 Gal of Coco is a waste unless you are growing trees

yup... in 5 gal of coco you should be harvesting 8 or 9 oz plants.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

It involves a lot more than just tearing leaves off.

Indeed... proper pruning is way more involved than simple defoliation or quasidefoliation.

 

[slowandeasy]

yup... in 5 gal of coco you should be harvesting 8 or 9 oz plants.

I had a plant in a 1 Gal Smart Pot in a small tent, it yielded 7 oz dry. 5 gals of Coco is a lot of medium to use, and should grow some fuckin monsters!! If you do not get 8 or 9 oz off 5 Gal of Coco...you are doing something wrong! In a 3x3 space using that much Coco is a waste.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I had a plant in a 1 Gal Smart Pot in a small tent, it yielded 7 oz dry. 5 gals of Coco is a lot of medium to use, and should grow some fuckin monsters!! If you do not get 8 or 9 oz off 5 Gal of Coco...you are doing something wrong! In a 3x3 space using that much Coco is a waste.

indeed. only reason I use as much coco as I do per plant is to keep them upright... I always have trouble getting two gallons of coco to support a plant that weighs 2 or 3 pounds wet. I could run ties everywhere but I move things around and like to be able to walk through my space without clotheslining myself.

 

[slowandeasy]

indeed. only reason I use as much coco as I do per plant is to keep them upright... I always have trouble getting two gallons of coco to support a plant that weighs 2 or 3 pounds wet. I could run ties everywhere but I move things around and like to be able to walk through my space without clotheslining myself.

Very good point, they do get very top heavy!! I have to tie mine up all the time, but I tie them to train them anyhow. If you have to room for 5 Gal, the extra weight would be good support. If you have a small space, 5 gal takes up a lot of floor space!!

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Very good point, they do get very top heavy!! I have to tie mine up all the time, but I tie them to train them anyhow. If you have to room for 5 Gal, the extra weight would be good support. If you have a small space, 5 gal takes up a lot of floor space!!

true dat, but if you have a small space you don't have to worry about clotheslining yourself on the ties as you walk thru your space... since you can't be walking thru your space =]

 

[slowandeasy]

true dat, but if you have a small space you don't have to worry about clotheslining yourself on the ties as you walk thru your space... since you can't be walking thru your space =]

Trust me, I wish I could walk thru my space!! Working with smaller spaces can be a real PITA!

 

[Marquis de Sod]

Christ! about 50 more pages since my last post!! yes tough to read, but actually you can save the whole thing by just reading the first post and call it good.

today is the magic day for me, day 19 and i am DFing all the fans that are over bud sites. i am also going to lollypop to some degree. even tho i have been getting semi good bud development down low, the buds are still so small i dont think it will pay off losing weight up top on this shante devi. it also HATED getting DF'd the first week of bloom. do not recommend. so far with this straight indica strain it likes the 18-21 day first DF and seems to do better leaving a few fans where they dont block any bud sites. but we've established this is definitely strain specific as to what they like.


I HAVE ANOTHER OFF TOPIC Q HERE for y'all that grow indica. Is it possible i am getting nothing but popcorn because they were in the 85-95F heat of summer? because the crop i put in bloom in fall looks like the buds are actually going to turn into some good colas. could the colder nights and all around temps be the cause of this?? i am giving them better ferts tho, Budswell for one.

 

[kcbudz31]

I've found similar results. I grow perp with 4 plants per 2 week rotation so I have ample chances to try this. So far veg defoliation slows vertical growth but builds roots during that time, and early flower defoliation gives terrible results. i lightly defol'd a plant the first week and it's on week 5 now and has half the weight on it that its untouched sister has

Definitely a habit to start in veg, I suspect the combo shock of flower + defoliation throws it into panic mode.