coco runoff

[tip302327]

Hi mistress. I was under the belief that as the plant leaf transpired fluids it creates a low pressure area within the stem drawing fluids up. Dont ask me why I thought that though. Can you explain how the water pressure inside the pot doesnot have to be equal to the outside. Seems if ther were more pressure inside it would simply run out the bottom since gravity is acting too. I suspect it has to do with cohesion. No?

 

[buddin_904]

there is air being put into container during watering...

chemical formula for water is h2o. this means 2 atoms of hydrogen (h) are bonded to 1 atom of oxygen (o). the oxygen breaks free from the hydrogen, and is released into the media. bacteria, roots, chemical charges, etc. are all going to attracted to this free atom of oxygen. this process is generally called oxidation, or transevaporation.

as long as there is water present in the root zone, by chemical certainty, there is oxygen evaporating in the media, root zone, up the xylem, and ultimately out into the surrounding atmosphere.

this process is generally called photosynthesis. after all, plants make oxygen; by splitting the c02, water, oxygen, light, vapor pressure, etc.

the pressure in the pot does not have to be equal to the pressure outside of the pot. the turgor pressure of the plant is dependent upon the water pressure in the root zone, and the water pressure pushing upon the leaves, i.e., rh. if the root zone water pressure is too low, the plant cannot transpire @ a high rate. the stomata will close trying to preserve water, and rh will climb. this is why should dehumidify, to keep repsiration going - even if/when under watered.

should maintain constant water in root zone in coco. air will move thru fibers.

hope this helps. enjoy your garden!

THANK YOU, everything i was trying to say. nice response!

 

[buddin_904]

Hi mistress. I was under the belief that as the plant leaf transpired fluids it creates a low pressure area within the stem drawing fluids up. Dont ask me why I thought that though. Can you explain how the water pressure inside the pot doesnot have to be equal to the outside. Seems if ther were more pressure inside it would simply run out the bottom since gravity is acting too. I suspect it has to do with cohesion. No?

it seems as if it would run out the bottom, but it doesnt nessicarily do that. if you can drip the perfect amount, the coco will seem to have a seal within the pot, being able to retain this max amount of water. as soon as one drop too many goes in, then a cascading release of the water comes out as run off, vacuuming a lot more than that last drop of water out. see what im talking about, about how it can seem to hold more water in itself, creating higher internal pressure, than handwatering. theres no way you can achive this type of pot pressure by handwatering, unless you gently pour for 10 minutes at a time??? ha!

 

[*mistress*]

Hi mistress. I was under the belief that as the plant leaf transpired fluids it creates a low pressure area within the stem drawing fluids up. Dont ask me why I thought that though. Can you explain how the water pressure inside the pot doesnot have to be equal to the outside. Seems if ther were more pressure inside it would simply run out the bottom since gravity is acting too. I suspect it has to do with cohesion. No?

there is thread here on icmag titled 'rh importance' that may have contributed to in another incarnation. may want to check it out.

basically, when the plant is operating @ max efficiency, the water goes right thru the plant and uout into the atmosphere; or remains in plant after being converted to plant matter/mass.

as long as the vapor pressure deficit is high (low rh), the leaves will not feel a high amount of atmospheric pressure upon them. when they do, triggers stomata to close, in attempt to preserve water.

air temp has much to do w/ this as well. higher air temps will also make leaf want to preserve water - if water is not abundantly available in root zone. if it is, coupled w/ low rh, the water will drive thru shoots, out of leaves, and keep repsiration and transpiration rates high.

measuring available water to plants in isolation will not be accurate data. air temps, root temps, air velocity, vapor pressure deficit, and ph all are relevant.

want plants' roots to be supplied w/ water 24/7. want air temps to be high enough to stimulate transpiration, w/ velocity to carry away water vapor to dehumidifier/ac.

the internal vs. external pressure you speak of is more complicated than just water in a pot. but can be that simple... as long as rh is low enough, and air circulation in the garden is such that no lighter can stay lit...

it seems as if it would run out the bottom, but it doesnt nessicarily do that. if you can drip the perfect amount, the coco will seem to have a seal within the pot, being able to retain this max amount of water. as soon as one drop too many goes in, then a cascading release of the water comes out as run off, vacuuming a lot more than that last drop of water out. see what im talking about, about how it can seem to hold more water in itself, creating higher internal pressure, than handwatering. theres no way you can achive this type of pot pressure by handwatering, unless you gently pour for 10 minutes at a time??? ha!

not quite sure what the goal to achieve is here?

the water available to roots can come in volumes, in increments, or steadily...
delivery system doesnt matter; plant doesnt care if dripper of hand fed water. just want water + ait to caary away oxygen just made + water pushing out.
turgor pressure will apply to either hand or machine water - as long all other factors in line. no variable in isolation though.

hope this helps. enjoy your garden!

 

[Carl Carlson]

GREY hello, you say you water twice a day. 10-15% run off, then you threw in some verrrry loose gram values associated with your nutes. the numbers you gave have 10% run off. now my ? !!!, do u run off with each irrigation 5% each, or do it 10-15% only during one. (IF) you run off both times, you should seriously try giving a light watering for the first of the day, enough to where you know its full but not enough to come close to run off and water gently as well, not trying to cause a release of the water in your pots to flow out thusly creating a runoff vacuum!, but water them to where nothing runs out. let em grow during the day, then during the second watering give em the full run off. please try a comparison and look for results!!!! it doesnt even seem like something you would think about nor would it seem like it would make a difference, but i honestly think it does. something to do with keeping the pressure of water against the roots high during the day!

i am trying a version of this in my current grow.

Handwatering as needed, which is now once daily, but splitting up into two sessions. First one - no runoff - second one about an hour later - just enough for some runoff - maybe 5% of the total from both waterings.

 

[Croweater]

When i grew, i used a differant method from most. i was limited to the number of plants because of the laws here, but it didnt limit the size.
so i grew monsters, one time i ran 1 plant in a 9x9 room under 6.5k watts in a 40gal pot. it used to drink about 10-15gal a day untill it had any runoff at all. got about 10lb off of that.
more commonly i used a 9x15ft grow room, 2 plants with 7k watts, with a 10-12 week veg 40 gal pots i use about 20gal a day. i have also used smaller pots around 13gal(50ltrs) each, with 4 plants.

I have found that during grow no runoff is better, especially the first month or so but a little is good occasionally 1-5%.
during bloom it is another story, i will always get salt build up with anything over 1200ppm (feed tds)during bloom. so i found it critical to flush with a weak solution of around 600-800ppm at least twice during bloom when the runoff ppm was over 1800ppm. i found drip clean to be usefull but i only used it when i flushed mid bloom(if i did another grow i would try it throughout)

I think the frequency of watering is a little more complicated to ascertain, i have tried large waterings once or twice per day, and uptoo ten small feeds per day.
timers are a must for me. i like to look at the very top layer of cocojust before it waters automatically for each of the feeds, i use it as a guide, to let me know if i need to increase or decrease the frequency or time beween feeds. my aim is to have the top layer starting to dry out just before it feeds again.
with this as an indicator i have found 1-6x for grow and 4-5x for bloom to work very well for me.
with a 10wk veg 9wk bloom i have gotten 18lbs (about 14 ave) from two plants with 7k watts 9ftx15ft room i honestly dont know if i could do better with smaller/more plants like most people here use, but i think im not far off lbs/month with my space/watts etc.
i should add this is with a coco/perlite mix 60/40 roughly.

 

[Carl Carlson]

to have the top layer of coco just starting to dry out just before it feeds again.

Yes.

 

[transplant]

in my group of growers, we do constant side by side comparisons to find what is the best. in a side by side comparison, keeping the coco moist and not soaked significantly increased yields, big time.
we used to water coco till there was runoff or a certain set time. now watering 1 min, 3 times a day on drippers. my last run was 6+ lb's with 3000 watts.
if you use drip clean from house and garden, you never need to flush. it creates an ionic bond with the salt in your nutrient, making it impossible to lockup! look into it, trust me

Hi KrunchBubble, would running clearex work like the drip clean? I know the drip clean Ionicly bonds with the salt, but wouldn't clearex flushing the salts out do the same job?

 

[turbolaser4528]

Hi KrunchBubble, would running clearex work like the drip clean? I know the drip clean Ionicly bonds with the salt, but wouldn't clearex flushing the salts out do the same job?

wow 1 min 3x per day was enough for big plants?! what gph was your pump?

I have a 340gph pump feeding 6 plants in 4 gallon pails, currently watering 4mins 3x per day, so 4 times as much as I should huh? lol damn, ill cut it down to at least 2 mins and report the results. take it easy guys!!!!

 

[transplant]

Sorry I was High. It was about 20 seconds every 3 hours, now it is 5-10 seconds every hour. Lighning fast growth.
Ok, I use coco, pearlite, myrocosial? fungi in form os soft rock phoshphate, rare earth "silica powder & humic or fulfic acid" mexican bat guano 10-2-2, puruvian bat guano 10-10-2...All just in the coco mix. Then in the ro water goes1 teaspoon of Cal Mag Maxper G, 1 teaspoon of GH micro per gallon, 1/2 teaspoon GH bloom per G, 1 oz for 32 gallons of Hormex. 3/4 water line 1/4 drip line pushed into the 3/4 water line no connectors. Blue 1/4 drip spikes & multiple 400 watt digi with Hortilux Blue Bulbs 1 foot off plants with no glass. Lightning Growth, no leaf burn, lock up or def. So take it for what it is worth.
Plus 1 teaspoon per gallon Heavy Weight wich is only molasas. Also just running veg cycle due to cold & pest problem earlier.
Also 5-10 seconds every hour of open line drip dtw. mix of 3/4 gallon pots beer cups & 2 gallon net cups for air pruning effect.
Also 1 teaspoon of LK per gallon
Also 1 teaspoon of hygrozyme per gallon

 

[turbolaser4528]

damn, my timer only has 1 minutes intervals. I will try 1 min 3x per day for a while until they look like they want more/less

 

[*mistress*]

method seem like maybe saw before...
on long ago boards...

thanks for sharing!

 

[Croweater]

The pots are rectangle shaped, they were being sold as nutrient tanks but i modified for pots i would guess about 3ft long 1.5 ft wide and maybe 2 ft deep
i cant stand in my room, 9ftx15ft wall to wall. i cringe when i see ppl with 8k+ watts and big empty walkways between the plants. ive used many diff shades over the years from parabolics to batwings.
the trunks are very thick as a comparison i would say about the thickness of a 1liter/quart soda bottle and up, but only maybe 12" tall i tip very young and train out hard so they are wide as possible
i use silica but the trunks will split if the main branches arent supported in some way.
i did post a grow on a australian forum once. it was a long time ago ive forgotten the name of it now though. trippy if you remember me from there.

 

[Bush Dr]

damn, my timer only has 1 minutes intervals. I will try 1 min 3x per day for a while until they look like they want more/less

If you want more frequent feeds and don't want to empty your rez, then you need to tee off the pump outlet and let most of the flow go back in the rez or create a high point in the feed line so the pump only just pumps over that

All pumps come in standard sizes, without speed controllers you can only alter the delivery rate per minute by bleeding off or increasing the 'head' that the pump has to push against

Check the flow graph for your pump, you'll see what I mean

Bush

 

[dman16]

fwiw i believe coco has a extremely variable tolerance to waterings and frequency. Im not a pro grower by any means, in fact this is my first rodeo but my mentor has run coco on drippers for years normally 3x a day for 2 mins. for my little operation with 4 different ladies (all different strains with considerably different demands) i have tried watering daily especially when young and they flourished, i switched to every other day and they flourished but were definitely pretty dry after 48 hrs. During those times i was going for 30% runoff. Now i have switched it up again watering daily but for example today i gave a full watering which is enough water to make them about to start having runoff. then the next day i will only feed a cup or two to each of the ladies ~3ft tall. Im only watering to runoff every 5-7 days now and ive had no issues of salt accumulation or lockout. Im running full canna line w/ snow storm ultra and calmag+ in 2 gal smartpots.
blackberry kush 3 weeks

 

[*mistress*]

...The biggest bucket plant I have personally ever seen was 4lbs 3 ounces and grown by a guy on only his second ever run,thats growing w**d not just vert setups.
...Anybody with the space can do it ,do it cheaply and do it well and practically do it in their sleep.............

from several, several moons ago...

although, there were far more tree gardeners on these boards back then... theyre still around... some on this board, some on other...

thanks, again, for returning to share...

 

[turbolaser4528]

If you want more frequent feeds and don't want to empty your rez, then you need to tee off the pump outlet and let most of the flow go back in the rez or create a high point in the feed line so the pump only just pumps over that

All pumps come in standard sizes, without speed controllers you can only alter the delivery rate per minute by bleeding off or increasing the 'head' that the pump has to push against

Check the flow graph for your pump, you'll see what I mean

Bush

yeah i can adjust the flow on my pump, am currently running 3x per day (2 min, 1min, 1min) beginning 2 hours after lights on and spaced out ~ every 3 hours after that

 

[Croweater]

this is a bit off topic but here are the pics i dug up from the grow i did back in '05 the 10lb plant(no co2) in a 9x9ft room during veg.
i run agricultural organics bloom range throughout with any decent quality nutrient. the nutritech have a huge range of products, mainly marketed at fruit growers i think. not that popular here for hydro.
back on topic the first week of veg i would definetly recommend running no waste, from what i have seen and read it makes the young roots spread out and search for the water. typically i feed about 3-4 secs twice per day which equals about 150-200mls water per feed for the first week of veg.
i gotta say though i have never run straight coco, always mixed with perlite. It would be very interesting to see a side by side comparison with the coco plants fed once per day and the coco/perlite plants fed multiple times.

 

[transplant]

this is a bit off topic but here are the pics i dug up from the grow i did back in '05 the 10lb plant(no co2) in a 9x9ft room during veg.
i run agricultural organics bloom range throughout with any decent quality nutrient. the nutritech have a huge range of products, mainly marketed at fruit growers i think. not that popular here for hydro.
back on topic the first week of veg i would definetly recommend running no waste, from what i have seen and read it makes the young roots spread out and search for the water. typically i feed about 3-4 secs twice per day which equals about 150-200mls water per feed for the first week of veg.
i gotta say though i have never run straight coco, always mixed with perlite. It would be very interesting to see a side by side comparison with the coco plants fed once per day and the coco/perlite plants fed multiple times.

Nice Job! I started some seeds in strait coco...never striat coco again!

 

[Hazyfontazy]

Nice Job! I started some seeds in strait coco...never striat coco again!

straight coco works just fine for seeds and clones ,,try it with canna start