coco runoff

[ScrubNinja]

Yeah I use a big round garden sieve, I guess you'd call it. Very effective especially when the coco is dryer.

 

[petemoss]

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I think that Lucas post might be old. I've read a few coco threads from 3-4 years ago and they are full of stuff that would be laughed right out of this sub-forum today, while everybody does it different, I would say most people here are watering daily or more, these days anyway. And slight runoff is about as close to a carved in stone law of the universe as it gets. But then again, people make shit work that goes against the rules all the time.

You're probably right, Tony. Some of Lucas' teachings are outdated, He doesn't even believe in bio buckets or flushing at the end! And what he says about coco runoff doesn't apply to the better quality coco available now. IMO coco can be watered to runoff and still drain easily without staying sopping wet. If you mix coco with EWC, peat, compost or soil, then yes, it can remain too wet. Pure coco or with perlite can't be overwatered and you should be able to water to runoff without drowning the roots.

 

[Seismic]

You're probably right, Tony. Some of Lucas' teachings are outdated, He doesn't even believe in bio buckets or flushing at the end! And what he says about coco runoff doesn't apply to the better quality coco available now. IMO coco can be watered to runoff and still drain easily without staying sopping wet. If you mix coco with EWC, peat, compost or soil, then yes, it can remain too wet. Pure coco or with perlite can't be overwatered and you should be able to water to runoff without drowning the roots.

Agreed, I have been having pretty good success watering till about 10-20% run-off, and they all seem healthy.

 

[raygun]

I love this topic because there are so many variables in growing style.

For me, in flowering I water with 2gph drippers 3-4x's a day on a 4min 2,2,2min schedule about 2-3 hours apart from each other. Some times I'll drop one of the 2min feedings but typically once my cab is up and running full speed I need every watering.
I use multiple drippers in the pots of some plants and use multiple size containers. I have 6x6x8 white pots and 5x5x6 smaller black pots along with 16oz plasic cups.
I currently am running 14 different plants in my cab and running it perpetually.

I recirculate/cycle my nutes the res not drain to waste and have an auto topper hooked up to my res to keep the water level constant. I just up it to about 7-8 gal at all times from the 5-6 it was at.

I make sure that I have some run off after that first 4 min watering. If I don't I'll add a dripper to that plant. If that is not enough as it appears to be all the plants I'll add another 2 min feed to the whole mix but point is I probably have more run off than 15%. In fact once in a while I'll turn on the drippers and let it run for like 30min or more to really flush out the coco and replentish it.

I think that with the drippers you are not really soaking the coco like when you hand water and flood the pots with water. Its a slower drip to one point in the coco and so you have to rely on osmosis and caplilary action for the water to spread througout the rest of the coco when you drip feed. So the run off % should be higher. I'll also add in here that I make sure that my coco is in need of watering before that first 4min cycle comes on so I know that my plants are using every bit of water I'm giving them. Its not like my coco is constantly sopping wet. Between the plants use and a fan that blows under the canopy the coco drys out nicely between the last and first waterings.

On the flip side my veging plants get hand watered every 1-2 days. They are in 4oz containers for the new clones and seedlings, 3x3x3 square pots and 16oz cups for the more developed ones. I have noticed that if the root system is not well developed when I transplant them to a larger container and give them a good soak that I can wait like 3-4 days before watering it again otherwise the coco will stay to moist for the under developed root system and you end up starving off the O2 the roots need to thrive. I've ended up with a foul smell comming from the bottom of the containers that this has happend to and is the first sign that the coco is over watered and I now know to let it almost dry out before I water again.

I typically will flood the plants with atleast the same volume of water that the container would hold and could have up to 30%+ of run off that I collect and dump back in to the 5 gal bubbling bucket I keep filled with Floranova bloom, some molassas and once in a while alaskan fish emulsion just because I have it and I think that the benifitals like that stuff. Basically I'm flushing the veging plants with new nutes/water each time I water so I know nothing shoudl be building up.

As to the white fuzzies growing on the surface of your coco more often than not that is benifitial goodies. I will get an explosive amount growing in my coco when I add some Bio-Live to it. Just means you have healthy coco and hopefully roots. If you start to get green or black or any other color then you can start worrying.

So with all that said going back to the original ? about run off I think that it is 100% necessary to keep the coco healthy to what degree you have it all depends on your growing style. I gota agree with Greyskull that what ever you end up doing as long as you take a hands on approach it should work out fine. Oh and that automated is the way to do it if you have more than 1 plant to care for. I could not imagine trying to hand water a 4x4 or 4x8 try every day.

Safe growing
~raygun~

 

[DeezyH]

As to the white fuzzies growing on the surface of your coco more often than not that is benifitial goodies. I will get an explosive amount growing in my coco when I add some Bio-Live to it. Just means you have healthy coco and hopefully roots. If you start to get green or black or any other color then you can start worrying.

Thats good to hear, first time grower here and I have the white fuzzies on my top layer of coco. They don't seem to bother the plant any so I am going to leave it be.

Fwiw, I hand water until ~20% runoff every other day and keep the top moist in between waterings. RH is consistent at 30% and temps are cool thanks to a direct flow of AC. I just topped and set to flowering so hopefully I'll something worth sharing soon!

 

[stoneypenguin]

Just watched this Canna video on youtube. It doesn't talk about runoff specifically but gives step by step instructions to measure the PH and EC of your soil. Its at 5:50 if you want to skip ahead.

Part 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SMPNg1DCGE

The video is split into 3 parts, some pretty good info in there if you want to check the other ones out.

Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsJXJED0qD4

Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbqF2HANJBA

 

[BuddahBoyee]

I have used coco since it has given me the most success as a gardener. The roots thrive w/ coco and plants grow well. I usually water once a day and do not always do run off. I do water them with regular RO water ph'd one feeding a week to moisten the medium and flush any nute build ups. I do use pro silicate in my schedule to prevent drought. I always try to watch each individual plant to see how they are doing then I assess how to go about w/ em.

 

[Yes4Prop215]

i was flooding my coco with about 20% runoff once a day, and i think my results were pretty shitty. but then again i had a 2 week veg and bad genetics.

I did a little test during my grow which backs up the assertion that less runoff in coco = better results. I had all my plants hooked up to a flood system, with one stake in each pot. the pots at the front of the table, i would water again by hand after the flood. The plants in the back only got the initial flooding.

Plants in the back were far more superior to my heavily watered ones.

I am still leaving coco behind and going back to soil on my next grow though, i like the idea of less watering. maybe a 50% coco/soil mix will be in the near future.

 

[tip302327]

It must be that what ever works for you is what you should be doing. Some say no run off, some 15% some more or less. My thought is if you train the plants from early on like hydro, heavy run off, they will grow hydro roots and if you dont they wont. If say for example, you are watering your coco plants once every other day and they are 3 or 4 weeks into veg and you decide to switch to a 10% run off every 3 hours, they proubally wont like it a bit. Same if you did it the opposite. I have been hand watering for the last 6 crops in coco and treated it more like growing in pete w/perlite, watering when the pots felt light. Results were what I would expect for my level of expertice. Nice looking plants at the end with room for improvement.
This current grow I constructed a vertical, 3 row circular top feed recirc system in pure coco w/2000w. Against everything I have read, I set the timer to come on every 4 hours for 15 minutes. I didnt want the on time that long but that was the least the timer would do. If you look at the set-up in the pic you will notice there are no 1/4 lines coming from the 1/2 main line. Thought was, I might be able to do this on the cheap so I simply drilled 3/16 inch holed in the 1/2 main circle setting on top the pots with 2 holes to each pot. If I put a 1 cup container under 2 holes to collect a sample, it takes about 8 seconds to fill it. Thats around 7.5 cups a minute going into a gallon pot for 15 minutes every 4 hours when the lights are on. Do the math. Out of 30 plants on 2 rows, I have 2 that look over watered but the fact is these things are getting loads of water.

Things I have learned along the way with coco.

* You certainly can over water coco, just let it get a little old and or compressed and the bottom will get soggy.
* If you cut slots and or holes up the side of the pot and add an inch or so of gravel to the bottom AND your coco is fresh, as far as I am conserned, it is nearly impossible to over water coco. If this is not so, I should have a lot of dead plants.
*I killed more plants than I care to remember not using coco nutes and dealing with hard / soft water and CalMag. By the right nutes, Live happy!
*I have time and time again grown 1oz clones in .75 gallon pots, 7 days veg time, 8 week flower. Plants finished around 14". After harvesting I noticed that the root ball consumed about half of the total coir mass. So, personally, I dont use large pots anymore. No pruning

*It is my belief that by fequent watering in coco that the P.H. and conductivity stay more stable and each watering is replacing the old oxygen with new.

After reading this post yeaterday and seeing some folks say they have had better results by watering less, I purchased a digital timer and currently have it set for 6 cycles of 2 minutes each for the lights on time. I am going to run it for a week and post results. I am curious for one, no very little for two, can barley gow a Chia Pet and am always looking to improve my grows. Just my 2 cents which is worth little.

 

[buddin_904]

Day 37 is kinda late to make a major change in style. How big of a plant are you growing in that 3g pot? If it's not a huge plant, you might try a smaller pot with more frequent watering. Watering frequency is what puts coco into overdrive, when you replace the water, you replace the oxygen, the only time I don't water daily is right after transplant when there isn't adequate root coverage to process the water. But I only grow in 1 and 2 gallon pots, big pots can be a whole different thing.

I'm thinking about cranking it up to the 1min 3x method.

My leaf tips usually get cooked when my coco is allowed to dry.

i have to agree with the BOLD. i just started coco on this run, and i JUST set up automated drippers(first time) for each 2 gal pot in late flower and WOW, in about 3 days i could reallllly reallllly see the difference. the leafs are sticking straight out ready to suck up as much light as possible, not droopy after handwatering once/twice/three times day!

blah blah you can/cant overwater coco whatever! there is a right way to do coco and theres a soso way to do it. DRIPPERS are magical in pots!. i believe they have this ability to let the coco in the pot hold a greater amount of water at mostly all given times! compared to handwatering, you pour a cup in, a cup comes out. thats because of the vacuum being created when you manually pour water into the coco. All that kinetic energy flowing right through the medium at once seems to pull extra water down and out right with it! i think it actually pulls out more? water than what u put in! haha false but?
anyways, the drippers verrrry gently place more freshwater inside the coco mass. as long as you time your drips perfect, you can trap a lot of water inside the coco, more than you ever could with handwatering!
i no because just last week i was HWing my shit. but now i have an irrigation of like 3 min x 5 times.

it used to be about trapping air, ex. soil?, but psh, when using the finest medium possible its about trapping water IMO!

my plan of action with the sequence/frequencies is this! water them multiple times a day, but shoot for a run off happening at the last watering! this is possble if you drip for just enough time each time, as it loads up some water, 3 hours go by water got used up, so it drips more and compensates for the loss. but by the time the last watering comes around, and all day it was topping them off a little extra at a time, then...... finally! it will flood the tray. so the point is, you get a daily run off, but also multiple irrigations without too much waste! it takes learning your set up, paying attention to how much water comsumption they have in a day and plan for the run off at the END or ONCE of the day!!!!, not every time!

this seems to be the best method of irrigation IMO, the whole idea is to split up the set amount of water they need in a day, into 4 seperate irrigations. therefore its getting proper amount of water per day, but for the last irrigation it should be the one that makes run off. the point, in my opinion is that keeping the coco mass EXTREMELY waterlogged CONSTANTLY (during mid-late bloom, btw) is very beneficial in aiding the roots to absorb and transport water/nutes. the internal pressure of all the water being locked in seems to surge water/nutes into the roots, all the while maintaining its "seal" and not coming out as run off until you want one, yes JUST ONE. Fresh solution being dripped frequently seems to be the best way eh??

some people are talking about fresh "air" O2 is being put into the pot during a watering? i dont really think any air is being pulled through in my set up, infact i no there isnt any being "pulled in". its actually the opposite, i run the drips and the pot takes in water and nothing comes out. obviously air was just forced OUT!, and no "fresh O2" ever flooded in, just water. the fresh nutes containing dissolved oxygen is enough "O2" needed to get trapped within the coco. therefore a constant supply of fresh nutes via drippers within pots is the best thing in the world LOL

ive figured it out!

 

[buddin_904]

basically, I really can vouch and say theres a HUGE difference between handwatering 3 times a day with a run off occuring each time,.........as compared to the drip set up i speak of! i just made the switch 3 days ago and i ABSOLUTELY notice the difference, mostly in overall vigor!

one way of immitating this to handwater your coc multiple times per day and just give little allotments, NEVER enough to cause run off, and then for the last watering flood them and cause R.O. that would be pretty close results huh?

im really interested in if anyone else knows what im talking about with locking in as much water as possible in the coco pots. maintaining this effect really seems to surge growth!
but what the fuck do i no, man i said the same shit 100 times i just needa goto sleep!

 

[Greyskull]

Oh and that automated is the way to do it if you have more than 1 plant to care for. I could not imagine trying to hand water a 4x4 or 4x8 try every day. ~raygun~

i decided to give a 4x4 drop a run, fed via hand.
maybe by hand isn't entirely accurate - i have a hydrofarm watering wand hooked up to a 400gph pump... but i am holding the damn thing...
anyways, 16 plants in 8" pots. I am feeding them (fresh mixed nutes) each 500-600cc per day (2 passes x 250-300cc), resulting in 10-15% runoff: 5g food/solution fed, 1/2g runoff total. I am working on obtaining less runoff per day, but so far the plants seem to be digging the grow thus far.
we'll see how it goes in 7 more weeks.

I just transplanted the next batch of sour dub from the ezcloner, and that batch is gonna get automated/ebbnflow feeding... i am trying to see if the handwatering path is a more delightful way for me to approach growing.

 

[buddin_904]

i decided to give a 4x4 drop a run, fed via hand.
maybe by hand isn't entirely accurate - i have a hydrofarm watering wand hooked up to a 400gph pump... but i am holding the damn thing...
anyways, 16 plants in 8" pots. I am feeding them (fresh mixed nutes) each 500-600cc per day (2 passes x 250-300cc), resulting in 10-15% runoff: 5g food/solution fed, 1/2g runoff total. I am working on obtaining less runoff per day, but so far the plants seem to be digging the grow thus far.
we'll see how it goes in 7 more weeks.

I just transplanted the next batch of sour dub from the ezcloner, and that batch is gonna get automated/ebbnflow feeding... i am trying to see if the handwatering path is a more delightful way for me to approach growing.

GREY hello, you say you water twice a day. 10-15% run off, then you threw in some verrrry loose gram values associated with your nutes. the numbers you gave have 10% run off. now my ? !!!, do u run off with each irrigation 5% each, or do it 10-15% only during one. (IF) you run off both times, you should seriously try giving a light watering for the first of the day, enough to where you know its full but not enough to come close to run off and water gently as well, not trying to cause a release of the water in your pots to flow out thusly creating a runoff vacuum!, but water them to where nothing runs out. let em grow during the day, then during the second watering give em the full run off. please try a comparison and look for results!!!! it doesnt even seem like something you would think about nor would it seem like it would make a difference, but i honestly think it does. something to do with keeping the pressure of water against the roots high during the day!

 

[tip302327]

some people are talking about fresh "air" O2 is being put into the pot during a watering? i dont really think any air is being pulled through in my set up, infact i no there isnt any being "pulled in". its actually the opposite, i run the drips and the pot takes in water and nothing comes out. obviously air was just forced OUT!, and no "fresh O2" ever flooded in, just water. the fresh nutes containing dissolved oxygen is enough "O2" needed to get trapped within the coco. therefore a constant supply of fresh nutes via drippers within pots is the best thing in the world LOL

some people are talking about fresh "air" O2 is being put into the pot during a watering?...

Well maybe, but rather certain something is replacing the area that was occupied by the water, here on earth we call it air. The water may have not ran out the bottom of the pot but it surly left the pot. I suspect it would up in the plant? And if it left the pot then it had to be replaced by something since the pressure inside the pot has to be equal to the pressure outside the pot.

 

[Greyskull]

you should seriously try giving a light watering for the first of the day, enough to where you know its full but not enough to come close to run off and water gently as well, not trying to cause a release of the water in your pots to flow out thusly creating a runoff vacuum!, but water them to where nothing runs out. let em grow during the day, then during the second watering give em the full run off.

aloha to you. thats actually how/what i have been doing. i guess i didnt explain that part very well. nice job! I feed them for 6 secs (with my pump + length of hose + wand = 250-300ml of solution delivered) per 'session', 2 sessions per day. The first 'session' gets each 2g pot a nice soak without runnoff; the second session then provides the 10-15% runnoff. I usually do the 2nd session about an 45min after the 1st...

please try a comparison and look for results!!!! it doesnt even seem like something you would think about nor would it seem like it would make a difference, but i honestly think it does. something to do with keeping the pressure of water against the roots high during the day!

no need to do a comparison thats the way to do it as far as i am concerned. at least that hand watering technique works for me i should say

 

[purpledomgoddes]

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=127112
never dump run off

this may be helpful. havnt dumped run-off in several runs. they will be fine.

this may be helpful.

 

[tip302327]

OK, I am sold. Switched timer to 2 min on in 24 hrs, 2 days ago. DAM! these plants went wild. It still does not make any sence to me, watering with no or little run off but the prof is in the growth. Unbelievable. Plants are 5 and 6 weeks from seed. t

 

[sergentjunk]

Wow..I wish I would have found this thread earlier. Now I'm questioning everything I've been doing, although my plants seem to be doing well...I know they could be doing better.

I have 3 plants in 6liter (1.5 gallon) square pots using Botanicare Ready Grow moisture formula...coco/perlite. I am in my fifth week of flowering. My watering has been as follows...

day 1: water with a mix of calmg+/probloom at 1kPPM to just a little runoff...enough to know my solution has gone all the way down.

day 2: Water with the same solution, to a bit more runoff. Just enough to know the previous days nutes were somewhat washed away.

day 3: complete flush with Clearex.

Repeat.

Now reading this thread, there are a good amount of methods to try and I'm starting to wonder if I'm watering and/or flush too much. By doing so...destroying the "buffer" and balance that I've created over the past two waterings.

Now please keep in mind I can only water once a day, and am handwatering to waste...no res. Would the more experienced growers recommend watering with nutes everyday, just enough to keep the upper parts moist. The bottoms of the pots obviously have no problems staying wet. Then maybe flush once a week? Or does watering to a 5% runoff accomplish this "flush"? So many MORE questions! LOL

*junk

 

[tip302327]

I have no experiance with Botanicare. What seems to work well for me anyway is feeding light. I use the drip clean from H&G, this along with the light feeding should keep the salts at bay but since this my first grow with the current set-up, it has yet to be seen. @ six weeks from seed I am guessing I could give the plants more than the 500 PPM I currently am but the plants are looking and growing so well, I dont have the nerves to try. I have cooked many plants in the past and once that happens seems they never really completly come out of it and certainly yeilds suffer. I am no longer in the mind set that one needs to have 10% to 20% run off on each watering. my plants are much happier with one feeding pr / 24 hr (no run off) with a 25% run off / flush each week. I am still using a recirc system because that is what I designed it to be from the start (watering much more each day) I think next grow I will switch to a run to waste as I wont be using nearly as much chemicals.

 

[*mistress*]

i decided to give a 4x4 drop a run, fed via hand.
maybe by hand isn't entirely accurate - i have a hydrofarm watering wand hooked up to a 400gph pump... but i am holding the damn thing...
anyways, 16 plants in 8" pots. I am feeding them (fresh mixed nutes) each 500-600cc per day (2 passes x 250-300cc), resulting in 10-15% runoff: 5g food/solution fed, 1/2g runoff total. I am working on obtaining less runoff per day, but so far the plants seem to be digging the grow thus far.
we'll see how it goes in 7 more weeks.

I just transplanted the next batch of sour dub from the ezcloner, and that batch is gonna get automated/ebbnflow feeding... i am trying to see if the handwatering path is a more delightful way for me to approach growing.

the beauty of no run-off will be seen @ the very end of harvest, if have ran only small concentrations of nutes.
can flush very slowly over long period of time, as the nutes are just residing @ the bottom of the container - to be assimilated @ the plant's demand.
they really need water more than nutes. a 3 foot plant can transpire a gallon or more of water during a 12 hour period, easy. they cannot assimilate 1000 ppms of nutes, maybe 50-75 during peak bloom.
would suggest altering feed to >npk ca mg s, etc than usual, if running w/ catch of run-off. if simply draining to waste, doesnt matter.

some people are talking about fresh "air" O2 is being put into the pot during a watering? i dont really think any air is being pulled through in my set up, infact i no there isnt any being "pulled in". its actually the opposite, i run the drips and the pot takes in water and nothing comes out. obviously air was just forced OUT!, and no "fresh O2" ever flooded in, just water. the fresh nutes containing dissolved oxygen is enough "O2" needed to get trapped within the coco. therefore a constant supply of fresh nutes via drippers within pots is the best thing in the world LOL
some people are talking about fresh "air" O2 is being put into the pot during a watering?...

Well maybe, but rather certain something is replacing the area that was occupied by the water, here on earth we call it air. The water may have not ran out the bottom of the pot but it surly left the pot. I suspect it would up in the plant? And if it left the pot then it had to be replaced by something since the pressure inside the pot has to be equal to the pressure outside the pot.

there is air being put into container during watering...

chemical formula for water is h2o. this means 2 atoms of hydrogen (h) are bonded to 1 atom of oxygen (o). the oxygen breaks free from the hydrogen, and is released into the media. bacteria, roots, chemical charges, etc. are all going to attracted to this free atom of oxygen. this process is generally called oxidation, or transevaporation.

as long as there is water present in the root zone, by chemical certainty, there is oxygen evaporating in the media, root zone, up the xylem, and ultimately out into the surrounding atmosphere.

this process is generally called photosynthesis. after all, plants make oxygen; by splitting the c02, water, oxygen, light, vapor pressure, etc.

the pressure in the pot does not have to be equal to the pressure outside of the pot. the turgor pressure of the plant is dependent upon the water pressure in the root zone, and the water pressure pushing upon the leaves, i.e., rh. if the root zone water pressure is too low, the plant cannot transpire @ a high rate. the stomata will close trying to preserve water, and rh will climb. this is why should dehumidify, to keep repsiration going - even if/when under watered.

should maintain constant water in root zone in coco. air will move thru fibers.

hope this helps. enjoy your garden!