CMH vs LED vs HPS

[Jellyfish]

Is there some rule on ICMAG that says LED Growers must not meet on a thread under their own exclusive banner? According to a recent poster, 98% of growers are using LED's. So why don't they start a thread called LED's ONLY!!!, so all these pests growing under other kinds of lights and puttin' down LED's will get the message and stay the eff away?

 

[Hammerhead]

. People today get but hurt over opinions like ive never seen before. It shouldn't matter what one likes or dislikes to other people. Stop getting mad based on someone else opinions. Threads won't become hostile when we are not trying to convince someone they're wrong. We all can decide which info to absorb. Let's grow killer weed and learn a thing or 2 it's not personal.

 

[exoticrobotic]

Guys... So much hostility...wtf?

Stop smokin that led crack weed and get back on the hids ffs

 

[exoticrobotic]

OGcrown on IG is running a full room using Growers Choice TSL800. I'll be watching his results with those. Suppose to be a direct 1:1 HID replacement LED

How much for this 'replacement' Hammerhead?

Looks like a 40yr old Atari console.

 

[greyfader]

really, this thread is about the spectrum. we have several folks using different types of lighting together.

led+cmh, led+hps, and i and several others are talking about led+incandescents.

all in an effort to get a more complete spectrum.

it just seems easier to start with led's first as the base or main source of light because of the more complete spectrum and vastly superior energy consumption considerations.

one of the reasons i'm looking at incandescents is that they actually produce more photons in the dark red range than the sun as a percentage of total output in the par range. they have more output in the far-red range than a hps. and lots of infrared.

maybe a hps or a cmh is more than what is needed to round out the spectrum if you have a full spectrum led already.

we might not need the brute force represented by hid lighting but just enough to accomplish signaling to get the response we're looking for.

if this is the case then low wattage incandescents may be enough.

looking at manufactured led builds we see usually 3000k and 5000k phosphor method white leds.

usually, the ratio is 2/1 3000k/5000k. these will make up 90-95% of total diodes.

then they throw in a few dark reds at 660nm, maybe 5-10%, and a couple of far-reds around 745nm.

they could also equip them with a few infrared at around 850nm, but i haven't seen one yet.

but the manufacturers are in intense competition and most are producing all-purpose lights.

i think this is not ideal. but it gets expensive really fast to use completely tunable all-led arrays.

so, i'm vegging with 5000k and will flower with 2700k + incandescent.

my lights are 1008 watts each using 72 5000k bulbs and i will drop the number of 2700k leds to 60, which is 840 watts, and then add 6 25 watt a15 appliance bulbs which will be 990 watts total.

the a15 appliance bulbs are rated for hot and cold extremes and are vibration resistant.

it should be an interesting experiment.

 

[exoticrobotic]

Makes me chuckle these new releases that 'replace' hids. Almost implies their old leds aren't worth shit vs hid

Weed is supposed to be an easy plant to grow.

I really feel sorry for the new grower as weed is no longer an easy plant to grow using led lights.

Unless of-course you have :-

AC
humidifier
radiator to warm grow room to 28C
VPD chart
Huge bottle of CalMag and much time on your hands to diagnose all the rust spots/necrosis.


In a cold UK, hids win hands down. It's hang the lights, water twice a week, wait 8 weeks, done...

No need for humidifier, radiator, calmag, vpd chart, AC.

 

[Crooked8]

Just improved the trellis dramatically. Im finding that these agrobars throw some decent light beyond their perimeter. Even at 10-12 inches beyond the fixture im hitting 400+ ppfd in the worst areas. Many areas at 500+. So I improved the overall sturdiness and structure of my trellis and extended it about a foot out beyond each bench(benches are 8.5ft length. This first run I just used the provided trellis posts from these botanicare rolling benches. It was far from ideal but i had to get this thing filled last time immediately. You can see the posts for the trellis are limiting the screen size if you just use those. Im used to frames built the way I did them here and not just posts to ziptie to.

The highlighted area is essentially all bonus beyond this past run. Really wish I had done this already.

Overall details…
10 - Agrobar 720 Leds spread over 6 - 4x8.5 ft rolling benches. 4 ton ac, co2 enriched to 1100-1200pm, all lights on agrobar controllers giving me dimming capabilities. 70 gallon reservoirs beneath each tray, ebb and flow, nice and simple. I much prefer the reliability of one solid pump moving water in and out one way. No clogged drippers here. Anyway, the lights have full spectrum, they dont go as crazy with the far red as others who imo go too far. Boulderlamp 650s can give photobleaching much like an HPS because they have more far red than most fixtures. It never happens with these and they seem to make otherwise leafier strains much denser.

The room is clean again and i absolutely let the veg get out of control but heres whats going in next…..its about to be a friggin forest of flavors.

2 - 315w cmh(i still LOVE these for veg, especially if you want something to stretch that normally is slow in veg, for me thats White Truffle and Mac1. They are slow pokes.)

1 - Ion 320w and 1 ChilLed 330w(anything with Og or sour or stretchy behavior goes under these, they stack way tighter and dont shoot up as quickly. Blue light definitely slows apical dominance overall.

 

[Crooked8]

Makes me chuckle these new releases that 'replace' hids. Almost implies their old leds aren't worth shit vs hid

Weed is supposed to be an easy plant to grow.

I really feel sorry for the new grower as weed is no longer an easy plant to grow using led lights.

Unless of-course you have :-

AC
humidifier
radiator to warm grow room to 28C
VPD chart
Huge bottle of CalMag and much time on your hands to diagnose all the rust spots/necrosis.


In a cold UK, hids win hands down. It's hang the lights, water twice a week, wait 8 weeks, done...

No need for humidifier, radiator, calmag, vpd chart, AC.

You only say that having not paid attention to all of those things or having had to in other environments my friend. I can only imagine how successful you would be if you did pay attention to all those things, Hid or Led..

 

[exoticrobotic]

Beautiful setup @Crooked8

 

[exoticrobotic]

You only say that having not paid attention to all of those things or having had to in other environments my friend. I can only imagine how successful you would be if you did pay attention to all those things, Hid or Led..

When i run hids at night in the UK i dont have to pay attention to these things @Crooked8

They take care of themselves by themselves with no adjustments from me.

If i ran leds these points would need closely monitoring and adjusting, which unfortunately i do not have the time to do.

 

[Crooked8]

Beautiful setup @Crooked8

Thanks man! Lots of hard work.

 

[Ca++]

What was the name-calling? I re-read all three posts, and didn't see it. Anyway. I'll pick one thing for you to address, since you asked me to, and I'm curious to read your answer. Address this quote from snakedope's post- "Cfl has been doing it for years, but with more success in the oils department, as they are usually more then 1500lm at source, they can squeeze a bit more from resin plants"

Well he said

You just like to twist things around to suit your nerdy explanation needs which no one cares about, I like your posts every now and then but you need to wake up bro and get back to reality, your nose has been inside scientific papers for too long

In that I hear is my explanations are nerdy, and nobody cares. Which I find insulting, though granted it's what I do being called nerdy, not me myself, it is close enough to fall under unwanted personal comments, of no use to the topic.
Oddly in the next line contradicts that. Then we move on to the divide between reality and science, that more than two people picked up on. I think everyone picked up on it.


I didn't see that said that. I was not part of that interaction.
As you have already denied, I'm afraid most CFL's are not over 1500Lm. The vast majority used to grow plants on this forum, are actually 1500 and under. Will you need telling this by a third person?
How big is the emitter part of a cfl? it's a linear lamp folded up. A 1500lm is about 12" of T5. Have you seen the little disc in a 1500lm LED? it's about 1.5"
The LED disk is perhaps 20 little dots of extreme output. The 12" is a large area of much weaker output. There is nothing more concentrated about the cfl. Not in size or lux. The little gaps between the emitters is all your idea revolves around. I don't think you can actually see what you are talking about though. Or you would see how daft it is, whichever account you post under

 

[greyfader]

Makes me chuckle these new releases that 'replace' hids. Almost implies their old leds aren't worth shit vs hid

Weed is supposed to be an easy plant to grow.

I really feel sorry for the new grower as weed is no longer an easy plant to grow using led lights.

Unless of-course you have :-

AC
humidifier
radiator to warm grow room to 28C
VPD chart
Huge bottle of CalMag and much time on your hands to diagnose all the rust spots/necrosis.


In a cold UK, hids win hands down. It's hang the lights, water twice a week, wait 8 weeks, done...

No need for humidifier, radiator, calmag, vpd chart, AC.

you are making a lot of assumptions here. do you want to be fair or just a wiseass?

maybe some folks have trouble using leds but i don't. my plants are lush, vigorous, and almost visually perfect.

no spots of any kind so i don't own any cal-mag.

i harvest every plant i start.

no matter where you live you have to adjust the environmental conditions to the plant.

i find cannabis to be very easy to grow. not at first. i had to go through a learning curve just like everyone else.

 

[Crooked8]

When i run hids at night in the UK i dont have to pay attention to these things @Crooked8

They take care of themselves by themselves with no adjustments from me.

If i ran leds these points would need closely monitoring and adjusting, which unfortunately i do not have the time to do.

I worked with HPS for many years. I promise you if you paid attention to those things you would make that time. This was one of 4 - 5k sq ft canopies. During our first runs we were not paying attention to VPD and kept our room too dry. We didnt have enough co2 enrichment and only harvested around 200ish lbs at first. Once we paid attention to all of those things you listed and had the equipment dialed to control everything we saw 300+ from the same room. I promise you, you have the time, its worth making it. And Fwiw, had this all been converted to Led I know I could have gotten 400+ for 70% of the energy and running 70% of the hvac.

 

[exoticrobotic]

Niiiiiiiiiiiiice

 

[exoticrobotic]

you are making a lot of assumptions here. do you want to be fair or just a wiseass?

For the record i am both @greyfader and quite encourageable too, please excuse me.

 

[greyfader]

Just improved the trellis dramatically. Im finding that these agrobars throw some decent light beyond their perimeter. Even at 10-12 inches beyond the fixture im hitting 400+ ppfd in the worst areas. Many areas at 500+. So I improved the overall sturdiness and structure of my trellis and extended it about a foot out beyond each bench(benches are 8.5ft length. This first run I just used the provided trellis posts from these botanicare rolling benches. It was far from ideal but i had to get this thing filled last time immediately. You can see the posts for the trellis are limiting the screen size if you just use those. Im used to frames built the way I did them here and not just posts to ziptie to. View attachment 18840379 View attachment 18840378 View attachment 18840377
The highlighted area is essentially all bonus beyond this past run. Really wish I had done this already.

Overall details…
10 - Agrobar 720 Leds spread over 6 - 4x8.5 ft rolling benches. 4 ton ac, co2 enriched to 1100-1200pm, all lights on agrobar controllers giving me dimming capabilities. 70 gallon reservoirs beneath each tray, ebb and flow, nice and simple. I much prefer the reliability of one solid pump moving water in and out one way. No clogged drippers here. Anyway, the lights have full spectrum, they dont go as crazy with the far red as others who imo go too far. Boulderlamp 650s can give photobleaching much like an HPS because they have more far red than most fixtures. It never happens with these and they seem to make otherwise leafier strains much denser.

The room is clean again and i absolutely let the veg get out of control but heres whats going in next…..its about to be a friggin forest of flavors.

2 - 315w cmh(i still LOVE these for veg, especially if you want something to stretch that normally is slow in veg, for me thats White Truffle and Mac1. They are slow pokes.)
View attachment 18840380

1 - Ion 320w and 1 ChilLed 330w(anything with Og or sour or stretchy behavior goes under these, they stack way tighter and dont shoot up as quickly. Blue light definitely slows apical dominance overall.
View attachment 18840381

nice clean set-up!

 

[Ca++]

I did the incandescent/LED mix, and it returned some stretch. Essentially the leads become more prominent. Less of the screen of green look. I didn't see any other gain from them. I increased lighting load about 10% with them. It didn't physically feel like I had added a heat source.

Using HID in a mix, I have the same ppfd but 20% more out of band heat. Now that does feel like I added heat. Leads came up that reminded me hps wasn't just about driver hum. I can't say anything about the result, as it was one of them 'flower the mums in the corner' affairs. While I devised a proper grow for next time.

Actually... It is next time, but I'm still chewing my pen. Yet another drip, or get the F&D going. Only.. the F&D means a baby F&D for cuts and veg stages. Where I don't want tables. Just pots. Anyway..


You will see morphology differences at the very least.

 

[greyfader]

For the record i am both @greyfader and quite encourageable too, please excuse me.

i can be a challenge to deal with sometimes, too. but you sound like a smart fellow, so why don't we drop the mudslinging?

people learn more when they collaborate.

 

[exoticrobotic]

mudslinging

Dont be an arsehole @greyfader this is a site for discussion of experiences.

For the average newbie grower, leds are shite

Commercial dialled in is ok...but it still produces a sub quality smoke

Nuff said