Clone of a Clone of a... Degredation Experiment

[headband 707]

If you truly are a scientist, some of your comments scare me. What scientist with any ejemecation argues his points (which can be quite contradictory of themselves) with no fact/evidence against others that are presenting facts and makes remarks like "how come I cant find a 20 year old clone". Common sense will explain that one. I guess you can't learn that in school.

You should know what variables are, right? You go find any illegal 20 year old item easily and I will give you a hug AND a high five. Loving the sarcasm yet? lol.

'My puddin' proves you wrong and that's all I personally have but I am also not going to shove 'my puddin' down yours or anyone's throat here since I can't actually prove it with pictures or some form of evidence. Even if I did I really don't think I would Push my formulated opinion on the matter, merely share as most have been doing here. Some pretty abrasive opinions you have with nothing to back it up in there. Just sayin.

HUUUHH?? lol.. okay then ...Why do you think that because your saying it it makes it true for me LOL>>WRONG... lol.. Bro what do you want I can't change my truth to make you happy nore would I .. It is what it is and has always been lol..Again you prove it and I am all for it until then I will believe what I know to be true lol.. Abrasive ?? whats abrasive about what I say lol.. I normally don't post to threads like this but I found it strange that your so upset about how I feel?? why do you even give a two shits ? Move on to more important things in life .. Why would I even try to prove somthing I know is right ? lol Headband707

 

[Microbeman]

I haven't read the whole thread and I've always kept a mother from my seed plant, or a clone from seed plant, just because its easier for me and I had space for it.

My buddy has a small closet setup and no space for a mother plant. He clones 2-3 weeks after flipping to 12/12, then puts those clones in flower after harvest, and repeats. He has been doing this for at least 2 years with a Nirvana Papaya. A clone of a clone of a clone...and so on. I can tell you without a doubt, his product is the same every time. DNA does not change, keep em healthy and all is good.

I like a mother in a seperate space, because it is easier to keep my timeline proper, but it is not necessary to preserve genetics.

Who did the DNA testing for him?<GRIN> I did this for at least 10 years (I said 20 earlier but there were mother periods that broke the chain) where we planted around 3000 rooted cuttings grew for two weeks took cuttings, flipped and so on. I observed what I attributted to chromosmal damage....leaf and flower deformity but I had no DNA tests done either.

 

[Maj.PotHead]

I don't lol.. Not only do I get immune to the bud quickly but when I see all the variations of the bud after one year it looks weaker ,isn't as dank as it was. I am very aware of my own immune system and would happily blame that for not getting high. But I also notice in the grow that the plant is weaker. Now I guess you could say this is me I'm not growing these clones properly and leave it at that. But I notice that everyone has the exact same problem. This can't be a new problem lol.. If they had all the great bud of yester year then where the hell is it LOL?? Do tell lol... cause I would really like to get my "old road kill skunk" back personally lol. Resin I find it's great but I tend to get pretty tired when I smoke resin... As you know it's the strain and how good it is that works for me,, the stronger the better peace out Headband707

{I don't lol.. Not only do I get immune to the bud quickly but when I see all the variations of the bud after one year it looks weaker}

WoW maybe the beans your growing arent upto par eh ????

clone of clone of clone of clone from a plant from seed dosent degrade over time get real. this has been argued many times here and other sites.

none of the genitics i run do anything you say happens only thing they do is get better because i get them dialed in !!!.
i havent bought seed pack 1 all the beans i have where gifted or i made the crosses from the gifts i've been given.

sugar shack ive had for 4 yrs it hasent gotten worse but better over time.

Decapation- pre98 bubba kush x white mustang, i was blessed with the most perfect pre98 bubba coffe pheno. i know for fact you would never get tired of her

memoryloss - purple urkel x strawberry desiel, the strawberry desiel pheno i kept is a must also

the chem4 cut i was gifted hasnet degraded either


maybe you should look into other sources for your genitics to obtain your desires.

i have 4 strains i run from cut and 100 crosses of strains in bean form.

i 100% agree with Sam

 

[MrFista]

No MJ links for organogenesis or embryogenesis but it is well known these methods are highly mutagenic. So much so they earned their own term - somaclonal variation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somaclonal_variation

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

True for many species, but not yet proven with Cannabis.
-SamS

No MJ links for organogenesis or embryogenesis but it is well known these methods are highly mutagenic. So much so they earned their own term - somaclonal variation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somaclonal_variation

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

First of all I don't smoke bud, only resin.
Second I have many clones older then 20 years, and none seem weaker in any way I can see, potency or vigor.
As for resin making you tired, it is what resin you are smoking that is making you tired, not resin itself.
Have you tried Sleestak from DNA? I can't go to sleep as long as I keep smoking the resin from it, I have to first smoke a few hits of something dank, to put me to sleep.
But I do understand everyone is different, thankfully, wouldn't be a real drag if we were all the same?,,,,,,
Did you read the studies I posted? It shows no evidence of loss of vigor, yield, or changes of any kind.
-SamS

I don't lol.. Not only do I get immune to the bud quickly but when I see all the variations of the bud after one year it looks weaker ,isn't as dank as it was. I am very aware of my own immune system and would happily blame that for not getting high. But I also notice in the grow that the plant is weaker. Now I guess you could say this is me I'm not growing these clones properly and leave it at that. But I notice that everyone has the exact same problem. This can't be a new problem lol.. If they had all the great bud of yester year then where the hell is it LOL?? Do tell lol... cause I would really like to get my "old road kill skunk" back personally lol. Resin I find it's great but I tend to get pretty tired when I smoke resin... As you know it's the strain and how good it is that works for me,, the stronger the better peace out Headband707

 

[maryanne3087]

I'm surprised to see you smoking on Sleestack. I wish I took the opportunity for their Sleestack Skunk cross which was dirt cheap/free at one point. What can you tell us about this strain?

You don't see many DNA grow logs/smoke reports anywhere.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I grew some Sleestak/Skunk#1 and thought it was really great Cannabis for buds. Try it.
But I am really a resin guy, and it is the Sleestak clone makes great resin real easy.
You can smoke it all day and not get tired, it is great for creative, intellectual work, but hard to sleep on.
-SamS

 

[Cannabologist]

Long post

VerdantGreen:
hey head i thought that epigenetics was ony applicable to breeding. can cuttings/clones also have heritable epigenetic changes???
Regulator dave:
If epigenetic changes are preserved when cells divide, is it not plausible that a Cannabis plant could undergo an epigenetic change that would be passed on from cell to cell as the plant grew?

- As far as I am aware, a large number of epigenetic changes are thought to happen and/or occur during the embryonic stage of development and last throughout the lifetime of the individual.

- Any number of environmental factor(s) may result in epigenetic changes and alterations in the expression of certain genes over time.

- Remember in regards to epigenetics, the environmental mechanisms involved alters genetic expression, not genetic structure.

- These alterations may last for the lifetime of the individual, or may be reversed.

- A chemical or mutagen altering the genetic structure of an organism is not the same as a chemical or mutagen altering the genetic expression of an organism.

*Example;
- Embryonic exposure to a particular chemical (environmental change) will result in development of say, webbed feet, or it may result in the development of cancer or other disease much later on in that individual’s life.
- Such chemical may or may not affect the parent individual, or individuals of the population as a whole.

- In regards to Cannabis; light color can influence cannabinoid profile, and a full spectrum “daylight” regime produces the most robust cannabinoid profile in individuals.

- Individuals can receive filtered light and have a cannabinoid profile that is not as robust as under a daylight spectrum, but in time “recover” under the full spectrum lighting and produce a more robust cannabinoid profile. Is this an epigenetic factor? This information is based on old data and should be further investigated. For a source on this, see my Cannabis Scholarly Articles post and check out “Effect of Light Quality on Cannabinoid Content in Cannabis sativa”: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=198130.

- If environmental factors such as light can (mildly) influence things like cannabinoid profile, could such environmental factors, like lighting, be tailored to produce Cannabis more suited to an individual’s needs (such as ‘medicinal’ Cannabis lower in THC and higher in CBD or other cannabinoids, and vice versa with ‘recreational’ forms of Cannabis)? Think about it

- I will concur with Great3fulh3ad; environmental factors (such as pathogens, light, fertilizers) are far more sound an explanation to clonal degradation, lack of potency, etc, than random mutation(s).

- Certain environmental factors (like mutagens, viruses, radiation), can be vectors for genomic mutations and chromosomal damage, but must be scrutinized on a case by case basis.

- These factors alter the genetic structure, or the genetic code, ie. the arrangement of genes, not the expression of genes.
*Example;
- Say a genetic code GAU may be altered (mutate) to GAG via some vector, or removed entirely.

- Remember for any scenario it is not a total loss and an individual may recover depending on the circumstances (ie, people recover from cancer, radiation, viruses, etc.).

Headband 707
despite asexual reproduction all of the specimens show distinct senescence, or aging. This is mainly due to accumulated oxidation causing irreparable damage to both genetics and the other tissues. No organism is free from the restraints of aging and this gradual decrease in vigor is noticeable for example in the slowed division rates and asymmetry in bacteria (E. coli etc.); once thought have infinite possible lifespans.

- This becomes an interesting point that would be worth studying in Cannabis, but any scientist would be hard pressed to say because you see evidence of aging in some worms and bacteria, that all life, and specifically Cannabis, will suffer the same.

Then you can keep a mom for about 18 months tops and then she starts to lose her vigor from being forced for so long.

- And the scientific tests you carried out to experimentally verify this idea is where?

Headband 707:
But each time it was cloned it lost a bit more of whatever it had that I liked about it in vigor and potentcy.

- Again, why would genetic malformation be the root cause of any lacking quality, rather than nutrient or pathogen problems? Also, what if it didn’t really lose any potency or vigor, what if the problem lies with you?

-This is not an attack, I am saying that you could be attributing loss of potency to tolerance buildup, and that you are simply mistaken in any lack of vigor; you just hoped, and wanted, your plants to grow faster, and because it was your first time and you were all excited, everything seemed better. Subsequent times the hype wears down, and you just want things done quickly. Now it appears everything is taking forever. So what I am saying is that it may be a matter of psychology, not plant physiology

Headband 707
According to some an older plant gets you higher.

Who? Why?.. WHAT?!?!?!? Science!!!

Headband 707
But I notice that everyone has the exact same problem. This can't be a new problem lol.. If they had all the great bud of yester year then where the hell is it LOL??

- Everyone like who? The many people here who have had clones for 20+ years, or who have gotten clones of clones of clones from friends of friends of friends from plants that were first grown 25+ years ago, and not had problems?

Headband 707:
Why would I even try to prove somthing I know is right

- Yes why indeed? You are so sure, but why don’t you prove it to everyone here, since no one is interested in what you think you know, and are entirely unwilling to prove.

Microbeman:
I observed what I attributted to chromosmal damage....leaf and flower deformity but I had no DNA tests done either.

- Having done no test, why would you attribute it to such without evidence?

- In my opinion chromosomal damage is likely to show up in germinated seedlings as malformations, not flowering adults, and death will often be the result of such damage.

Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somaclonal_variation

- This is excellent information.

- It is important to note that genetic alterations and epigenetic events taking place are done in tissue culture on totipotent cells.

- These changes are not done on or taking place with fully grown organisms, but highly contaminable cells who when they differentiate, are responsible for the formation of a new organism. In this way, the whole organism can be affected (easily) by such genetic and epigenetic events as it is just quite literally a blob of cells in a Petri dish.

 

[Microbeman]

Having done no test, why would you attribute it to such without evidence?

Purely logically speculative.

If you observed gradual degredation over a number of years of a line of plant which was sourced from cuttings of cuttings of cuttings... but other lines were not so effected in the same growing environment, what would you attribute this to? (informally)

Did you look over the information I posted earlier where several species of plants are used to study chromosomal damage from chemicals? I thought this indicated that such damage is possible in plants. If so, logically, if I take a cutting from a plant which has suffered such damage, the plant which grows from this cutting will be [can be] similarly effected....no?

 

[jedimike]

In my experience the clones don't even get dialed in until the 3rd or 4th generation. I always take clones of clones and if anything they are more vigorous now and tastier and more potent than they have ever been.

 

[Shike]

I grew some Sleestak/Skunk#1 and thought it was really great Cannabis for buds. Try it.
But I am really a resin guy, and it is the Sleestak clone makes great resin real easy.
You can smoke it all day and not get tired, it is great for creative, intellectual work, but hard to sleep on.
-SamS

Is DNA a good seed company? I'm new to smoking and growing and am really having a hard time getting past politics and the he-said/she-said antics that occur when people talk about Seed Companies. I've grown Rocklock and am growing White White(Nirvana) and LSD(Barney) and ordered some SC99 from Dutchgrown.
As a mod are you allowed to recommend a breeder for a small personal grower?

 

[Microbeman]

Purely logically speculative.

If you observed gradual degredation over a number of years of a line of plant which was sourced from cuttings of cuttings of cuttings... but other lines were not so effected in the same growing environment, what would you attribute this to? (informally)

Did you look over the information I posted earlier where several species of plants are used to study chromosomal damage from chemicals? I thought this indicated that such damage is possible in plants. If so, logically, if I take a cutting from a plant which has suffered such damage, the plant which grows from this cutting will be [can be] similarly effected....no?

Cannabiologist:

There are several ways which scientific dialogue can take place. One of the bases of many theories arises from hypothetical discussion, often through exchange of letters between parties. You engaged me in dialogue or so I presumed, raising a very good question, to which I replied with the above. I do hope that you plan on replying at some point. You will note upon reading the thread that I have posted links to articles supporting both chromosomal degradation and race (cultigen) improvement through successive rooted cuttings (clones). I also posted my own experience as far as informal observation can take one.

 

[headband 707]

I still believe in Mendel's LAWS lol

I still believe in Mendel's LAWS lol

I would love to see your work Sam I have been searching the site and can't find it. I will concede the you may have a strain and a method that has alluded me lol.. Hard to believe I could be wrong jk.. I found this info and I have been reading degration accross the board . I'm also typing in degration of genetics lol..

While cloning cannabis plants, one needs to be a bit careful, as the process can pose certain risks to the health of the plant. The most common cloning cannabis plants problems are the risk for fungal diseases and invasion by pests. Therefore, the plants that are resistant to pests and fungus are selected for cloning. The clones can become particularly susceptible to fungal growth, as they are put in a humidity zone for a couple of days, after cutting. High humidity is known to be a favorable condition for fungal growth. So, it is important to use a fungicide to protect the clones from such problems. However, fungicide needs to be used very carefully, as excess of it can ruin the clones. So, growing healthy and strong cannabis plants by cloning would require a little bit of care and precaution. Hope these few tips on cloning cannabis plants would prove helpful for you.


Just the fact that they are sesceptable compared to the seeded plant. Like Medel's Law states the strong survive. lol peace out Headband707

 

[MrFista]

Mendels law does not state the strong survive at all. It doesn't even vaguely relate to it.

Law of Segregation "when any individual produces gametes, the copies of a gene separate so that each gamete receives only one copy."

Law of Independant Assortment "alleles of different genes assort independently of one another during gamete formation."

Nothing to do with cloning. If you believe in some laws you should learn what they are. It is obvious you haven't a clue so why continue to argue, for ego's sake?

You could shut up and learn an awful lot from Sam instead of holding a position that is obviously false.

Neg repping my posts does nothing for proving you have a clue, either.

 

[kstampy]

I would love to see your work Sam I have been searching the site and can't find it. I will concede the you may have a strain and a method that has alluded me lol.. Hard to believe I could be wrong jk.. I found this info and I have been reading degration accross the board . I'm also typing in degration of genetics lol..

While cloning cannabis plants, one needs to be a bit careful, as the process can pose certain risks to the health of the plant. The most common cloning cannabis plants problems are the risk for fungal diseases and invasion by pests. Therefore, the plants that are resistant to pests and fungus are selected for cloning. The clones can become particularly susceptible to fungal growth, as they are put in a humidity zone for a couple of days, after cutting. High humidity is known to be a favorable condition for fungal growth. So, it is important to use a fungicide to protect the clones from such problems. However, fungicide needs to be used very carefully, as excess of it can ruin the clones. So, growing healthy and strong cannabis plants by cloning would require a little bit of care and precaution. Hope these few tips on cloning cannabis plants would prove helpful for you.


Just the fact that they are sesceptable compared to the seeded plant. Like Medel's Law states the strong survive. lol peace out Headband707

Not sure where you got that but it honestly seems like "A guide to cloning for dummies" or some sort of intro book. If you can, and don't mind, please post where you copy paste this stuff from so we can read more about the source of what you're posting.

The only reason I can see them being more susceptible is because people like to put them in a sauna like environment for the first week of their lives. I have never used a humidity dome and my humidity is average 25-40 in there depending on time of year. The RH doesn't matter as long as the clone can uptake moisture from the media without being excessively wet. Consistent temps and a heating mat will get you reliable clones in 5-7 days 100% of the time if you keep the temps right and water from the bottom of the cube just enough to dry out every 12-24 hours (40mm cube=25ish grams wet is good if you want to get nitty gritty about it). I specifically don't dome to avoid those exact problems but in turn have to water more frequently. The only time any of them have died is from not paying attention and missing one when watering time comes, after that I just chuck it for that's why I take extra clones each batch. Clean everything as much as your individual lazyness allows and use a sterile blade when cutting (most important IMO), don't use scissors the cut promotes mold especially in an EZ Cloner yu will get the mushy tips.

707 Are you now suggesting degradation is due to poor cloning procedures? Maybe there's your problem? Just trying to see why you have experienced such the opposite of my own (and most of the others here) experience while I also had quite non-ideal grow conditions for a very long period of time. We don't know anything about your grow style/setup there's no pics or anything so kind of looking in to your side of the story to find out what may be causing degradation is near impossible, especially when you seem to believe nothing you do/say is wrong.

I have a tolerance build up too man but I don't see my plants losing vigor through their many many generations of cloning and I see and hold and move almost every single one of my plants every day. I know them well enough that I could pick each of my strains out from a batch of unlabeled clones so I really do pay attention.

Another rule of thumb of mine. If my plants started losing vigor (or such from the beginning) I would be chucking it for my next strain that I don't have room for. I have 'liked' each one of my strains but if they don't perform well enough to my liking then they are removed. So far my most reliable strain has been ogre and that is my oldest strain that has been through hell and a hand basket before even getting to me. Once it reached me I took it through for another round trip or two since then .

Agree or not I will just continue to enjoy my strains as they were the day they got to me

 

[headband 707]

You were saying?? lol...

You were saying?? lol...

Mendels law does not state the strong survive at all. It doesn't even vaguely relate to it.

Law of Segregation "when any individual produces gametes, the copies of a gene separate so that each gamete receives only one copy."

Law of Independant Assortment "alleles of different genes assort independently of one another during gamete formation."

Nothing to do with cloning. If you believe in some laws you should learn what they are. It is obvious you haven't a clue so why continue to argue, for ego's sake?

You could shut up and learn an awful lot from Sam instead of holding a position that is obviously false.

Neg repping my posts does nothing for proving you have a clue, either.

Mendel's Laws
Mendel discovered that by crossing white flower and purple flower plants, the result was not a blend. Rather than being a mix of the two, the offspring was purple flowered. He then conceived the idea of heredity units, which he called "factors", one of which is a recessive characteristic and the other dominant. Mendel said that factors, later called genes, normally occur in pairs in ordinary body cells, yet segregate during the formation of sex cells. Each member of the pair becomes part of the separate sex cell. The dominant gene, such as the purple flower in Mendel's plants, will hide the recessive gene, the white flower. After Mendel self-fertilized the F1 generation and obtained the 3:1 ratio, he correctly theorized that genes can be paired in three different ways for each trait: AA, aa, and Aa. The capital "A" represents the dominant factor and lowercase "a" represents the recessive. (The last combination listed above, Aa, will occur roughly twice as often as each of the other two, as it can be made in two different ways, Aa or aA.)
Mendel stated that each individual has two factors for each trait, one from each parent. The two factors may or may not contain the same information. If the two factors are identical, the individual is called homozygous for the trait. If the two factors have different information, the individual is called heterozygous. The alternative forms of a factor are called alleles. The genotype of an individual is made up of the many alleles it possesses. An individual's physical appearance, or phenotype, is determined by its alleles as well as by its environment. An individual possesses two alleles for each trait; one allele is given by the female parent and the other by the male parent. They are passed on when an individual matures and produces gametes: egg and sperm. When gametes form, the paired alleles separate randomly so that each gamete receives a copy of one of the two alleles. The presence of an allele doesn't promise that the trait will be expressed in the individual that possesses it. In heterozygous individuals the only allele that is expressed is the dominant. The recessive allele is present but its expression is hidden.
Mendel summarized his findings in two laws; the Law of Segregation and the Law of Independent Assortment.
[edit] Law of Segregation (The "First Law")

The Law of Segregation states that when any individual produces gametes, the copies of a gene separate so that each gamete receives only one copy. A gamete will receive one allele or the other. The direct proof of this was later found following the observation of meiosis by two independent scientists, the German botanist, Oscar Hertwig in 1876, and the Belgian zoologist, Edouard Van Beneden in 1883. In meiosis the paternal and maternal chromosomes get separated and the alleles with the traits of a character are segregated into two different gametes.
[edit] Law of Independent Assortment (The "Second Law")

The Law of Independent Assortment, also known as "Inheritance Law", states that alleles of different genes assort independently of one another during gamete formation. While Mendel's experiments with mixing one trait always resulted in a 3:1 ratio (Fig. 1) between dominant and recessive phenotypes, his experiments with mixing two traits (dihybrid cross) showed 9:3:3:1 ratios (Fig. 2). But the 9:3:3:1 table shows that each of the two genes are independently inherited with a 3:1 phenotypic ratio. Mendel concluded that different traits are inherited independently of each other, so that there is no relation, for example, between a cat's color and tail length. This is actually only true for genes that are not linked to each other.
Independent assortment occurs during meiosis I in eukaryotic organisms, specifically metaphase I of meiosis, to produce a gamete with a mixture of the organism's maternal and paternal chromosomes. Along with chromosomal crossover, this process aids in increasing genetic diversity by producing novel genetic combinations.
Of the 46 chromosomes in a normal diploid human cell, half are maternally-derived (from the mother's egg) and half are paternally-derived (from the father's sperm). This occurs as sexual reproduction involves the fusion of two haploid gametes (the egg and sperm) to produce a new organism having the full complement of chromosomes. During gametogenesis—the production of new gametes by an adult—the normal complement of 46 chromosomes needs to be halved to 23 to ensure that the resulting haploid gamete can join with another gamete to produce a diploid organism. An error in the number of chromosomes, such as those caused by a diploid gamete joining with a haploid gamete, is termed aneuploidy.
In independent assortment the chromosomes that end up in a newly-formed gamete are randomly sorted from all possible combinations of maternal and paternal chromosomes. Because gametes end up with a random mix instead of a pre-defined "set" from either parent, gametes are therefore considered assorted independently. As such, the gamete can end up with any combination of paternal or maternal chromosomes. Any of the possible combinations of gametes formed from maternal and paternal chromosomes will occur with equal frequency. For human gametes, with 23 pairs of chromosomes, the number of possibilities is 223 or 8,388,608 possible combinations.[3] The gametes will normally end up with 23 chromosomes, but the origin of any particular one will be randomly selected from paternal or maternal chromosomes. This contributes to the genetic variability of progeny.

 

[headband 707]

Not sure where you got that but it honestly seems like "A guide to cloning for dummies" or some sort of intro book. If you can, and don't mind, please post where you copy paste this stuff from so we can read more about the source of what you're posting.

The only reason I can see them being more susceptible is because people like to put them in a sauna like environment for the first week of their lives. I have never used a humidity dome and my humidity is average 25-40 in there depending on time of year. The RH doesn't matter as long as the clone can uptake moisture from the media without being excessively wet. Consistent temps and a heating mat will get you reliable clones in 5-7 days 100% of the time if you keep the temps right and water from the bottom of the cube just enough to dry out every 12-24 hours (40mm cube=25ish grams wet is good if you want to get nitty gritty about it). I specifically don't dome to avoid those exact problems but in turn have to water more frequently. The only time any of them have died is from not paying attention and missing one when watering time comes, after that I just chuck it for that's why I take extra clones each batch. Clean everything as much as your individual lazyness allows and use a sterile blade when cutting (most important IMO), don't use scissors the cut promotes mold especially in an EZ Cloner yu will get the mushy tips.

707 Are you now suggesting degradation is due to poor cloning procedures? Maybe there's your problem? Just trying to see why you have experienced such the opposite of my own (and most of the others here) experience while I also had quite non-ideal grow conditions for a very long period of time. We don't know anything about your grow style/setup there's no pics or anything so kind of looking in to your side of the story to find out what may be causing degradation is near impossible, especially when you seem to believe nothing you do/say is wrong.

I have a tolerance build up too man but I don't see my plants losing vigor through their many many generations of cloning and I see and hold and move almost every single one of my plants every day. I know them well enough that I could pick each of my strains out from a batch of unlabeled clones so I really do pay attention.

Another rule of thumb of mine. If my plants started losing vigor (or such from the beginning) I would be chucking it for my next strain that I don't have room for. I have 'liked' each one of my strains but if they don't perform well enough to my liking then they are removed. So far my most reliable strain has been ogre and that is my oldest strain that has been through hell and a hand basket before even getting to me. Once it reached me I took it through for another round trip or two since then .

Agree or not I will just continue to enjoy my strains as they were the day they got to me

If your really looking for where I got that post Then type in "cloning cannabis" and you will find it LOL...

funny how really upset ppl get when ppl tell "THEIR TRUTH" LOLHeadband707

 

[kstampy]

If your really looking for where I got that post Then type in "cloning cannabis" and you will find it LOL...

funny how really upset ppl get when ppl tell "THEIR TRUTH" LOLHeadband707

Not mad here, I was simply trying to see why you believe you are so right since I have experienced the exact opposite. Most people don't like and/or know how to deal with difficult people like you, I hope you enjoy going through life pissing people off with that attitude . You wont even answer questions meant to possibly help you. It's obvious you just sit around the forum boosting your epeen to make yourself feel better. You really have degraded this thread with your BS lol, congrats and thanks!

By Chandramita Bora

I am an M.A. in Economics. Reading has always been a passion to me, and then, one day I realized that I should also explore and enhance my writing skill. And so, I am here to pursue a career in writing.

Interests and Hobbies:
Reading, writing and music

Yes, I already looked up your cloning for dummies link. Congrats for citing an article written by someone with a masters in Economics instead of something even remotely related to Cannabis or just plants in general. You have done yourself so much justice around here! Bye!

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Not sure what work you are referring to my work or the work I posted showing that clones of clones of clones do not really change in vigor or potency?

Anyone have studies that show damage from clones of clones of clones?
Here are a few papers all saying they can't find damage from cloning:


http://home.olemiss.edu/~suman/Geneticstability.pdf

Assessment of the Genetic Stability of Micropropagated Plants of Cannabis sativa by ISSR Markers.
Lata H, Chandra S, Techen N, Khan IA, Elsohly MA
National Center for Natural Products Research, School of Pharmacy, The University of Mississippi, University, MS, USA.
Planta Med 2009 Jul 27.
Inter-simple sequence repeat (ISSR) markers were used to evaluate the genetic stability of the micropropagated plants of CANNABIS SATIVA over 30 passages in culture and hardening in soil for 8 months. A total of 15 ISSR primers resulted in 115 distinct and reproducible bands. All the ISSR profiles from micropropagated plants were monomorphic and comparable to mother plants, confirming the genetic stability among clones and mother plants. Chemical analysis of cannabinoids, using gas chromatography/flame ionization detection (GC/FID), was done to further confirm whether the qualitative and quantitative differences in the major secondary metabolites exist between the mother plant and micropropagated plants. Six major cannabinoids - Delta(9)-THC, THCV, CBD, CBC, CBG, and CBN - were identified and compared with the mother plant. Our results clearly showed a similar cannabinoid profile and insignificant differences in THC content between the two types of plants. These results suggest that the micropropagation protocol developed by us for rapid IN VITRO multiplication is appropriate and applicable for clonal mass propagation of C. SATIVA.

https://www.thieme-connect.de/ejourn...s-0029-1240628



Biochemistry, Molecular Biology and Biotechnology
Original Papers Planta Med 2010; 76(7): 743-750
DOI: 10.1055/s-0029-1240628

© Georg Thieme Verlag KG Stuttgart · New York



Assessment of Cannabinoids Content in Micropropagated Plants of Cannabis sativa and Their Comparison with Conventionally Propagated Plants and Mother Plant during Developmental Stages of Growth

Suman Chandra1, Hemant Lata1, Zlatko Mehmedic1, Ikhlas A. Khan1,2, Mahmoud A. ElSohly1,3
1 National Center for Natural Product Research, Research Institute of Pharmaceutical Sciences, School of Pharmacy, University of Mississippi, University, MS, USA
2 Department of Pharmacognosy, School of Pharmacy, University of Mississippi, University, MS, USA
3 Department of Pharmaceutics, School of Pharmacy, University of Mississippi, University, MS, USA
Abstract

Gas chromatography-flame ionization detection (GC‐FID) was used to assess the chemical profile and quantification of cannabinoids to identify the differences, if existing, in the chemical constituents of in vitro propagated plants (IVP), conventionally grown plants (VP) and indoor grown mother plants (MP-Indoor) of a high THC yielding variety of Cannabis sativa L. during different developmental stages of growth. In general, THC content in all groups increased with plant age up to a highest level during the budding stage where the THC content reached a plateau before the onset of senescence. The pattern of changes observed in the concentration of other cannabinoids content with plants age has followed a similar trend in all groups of plants. Qualitatively, cannabinoids profiles obtained using GC‐FID, in MP-indoor, VP and IVP plants were found to be similar to each other and to that of the field grown mother plant (MP field) of C. sativa. Minor differences observed in cannabinoids concentration within and among the groups were not found to be statistically significant. Our results confirm the clonal fidelity of IVP plants of C. sativa and suggest that the biochemical mechanism used in this study to produce the micropropagated plants does not affect the metabolic content and can be used for the mass propagation of true to type plants of this species for commercial pharmaceutical use.

Key words

Cannabis sativa - Cannabaceae - cannabinoids - Δ9‐tetrahydrocannabinol - gas chromatography‐flame ionization detection - micropropagation


https://www.thieme-connect.de/ejourn...s-0030-1249773


Biochemistry, Molecular Biology and Biotechnology
Original Papers Planta Med 2010; 76(14): 1629-1633
DOI: 10.1055/s-0030-1249773

© Georg Thieme Verlag KG Stuttgart · New York



High Frequency Plant Regeneration from Leaf Derived Callus of High Δ9-Tetrahydrocannabinol Yielding Cannabis sativa L.

Hemant Lata1, Suman Chandra1, Ikhlas A. Khan1,2, Mahmoud A. ElSohly1,3
1 National Center for Natural Products Research, Research Institute of Pharmaceutical Sciences, School of Pharmacy, University of Mississippi, University, MS, USA
2 Department of Pharmacognosy, School of Pharmacy, University of Mississippi, University, MS, USA
3 Department of Pharmaceutics, School of Pharmacy, University of Mississippi, University, MS, USA
Abstract

An efficient in vitro propagation protocol for rapidly producing Cannabis sativa plantlets from young leaf tissue was developed. Using gas chromatography-flame ionization detection (GC‐FID), high THC yielding elite female clone of a drug-type Cannabis variety (MX) was screened and its vegetatively propagated clones were used for micropropagation. Calli were induced from leaf explant on Murashige and Skoog medium supplemented with different concentrations (0.5, 1.0, 1.5, and 2.0 µM) of indole- 3-acetic acid (IAA), indole- 3- butyric acid (IBA), naphthalene acetic acid (NAA), and 2,4-dichlorophenoxy-acetic acid (2,4-D) in combination with 1.0 µM of thidiazuron (TDZ) for the production of callus. The optimum callus growth and maintenance was in 0.5 µM NAA plus 1.0 µM TDZ. The two-month-old calli were subcultured to MS media containing different concentrations of cytokinins (BAP, KN, TDZ). The rate of shoot induction and proliferation was highest in 0.5 µM TDZ. Of the various auxins (IAA, IBA, and NAA) tested, regenerated shoots rooted best on half strength MS medium (1/2 - MS) supplemented with 2.5 µM IBA. The rooted plantlets were successfully established in soil and grown to maturity with no gross variations in morphology and cannabinoids content at a survival rate of 95 % in the indoor growroom.

Key words

Cannabis sativa - Cannabaceae - callus induction - Δ9‐tetrahydrocannabinol - GC‐FID - organogenesis

Here is another paper I find interesting, (SCAR) markers were used to ID males and females prior to flowering:

https://www.thieme-connect.de/ejourn...s-0030-1249978

I would love to see your work Sam I have been searching the site and can't find it. I will concede the you may have a strain and a method that has alluded me lol.. Hard to believe I could be wrong jk.

headband 707,
I know I have strains you know nothing about, I have made well over 10,000 strains in my life, some simple F1 hybrids, some much more complicated and involved, even I have not had time to test grow them all, not yet anyway...
As for my methods, for sure I must have a few I have not posted, yet...
Maybe you could start by finding and reading the articles I list above, if you have any interest in reading the opposite view that you seem to have? They are referenced science articles, not just opinions.
Do you have any science articles that back your opinion that clones of clones of clones cause degradation?
-SamS