Clone of a Clone of a... Degredation Experiment

[spurr]

Here are what seem to be somewhat relevant studies; albeit at least one is about trees.

It appears in clonal propagation and vegetative propagation (both asexual), strain senescence may vary amongst species and method of asexual propagation. Most research I could find on this topic, re: clonal senescence, is about naturally occurring clonal growth in wild plants and tress. So far I have not found a lot of info about clonal or vegetative propagation by humans of annual plants (like cannabis). I will continue looking, but so far, below is some of the most relevant works I could find.


1. "Aging in a Long-Lived Clonal Tree"
Dilara Ally, Kermit Ritland, Sarah P. Otto
PLoS Biol, 8(8) (2010)
(full text) http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1000454

Abstract

From bacteria to multicellular animals, most organisms exhibit declines in survivorship or reproductive performance with increasing age (“senescence”) [1],[2]. Evidence for senescence in clonal plants, however, is scant [3],[4]. During asexual growth, we expect that somatic mutations, which negatively impact sexual fitness, should accumulate and contribute to senescence, especially among long-lived clonal plants [5],[6]. We tested whether older clones of Populus tremuloides (trembling aspen) from natural stands in British Columbia exhibited significantly reduced reproductive performance. Coupling molecular-based estimates of clone age with male fertility data, we observed a significant decline in the average number of viable pollen grains per catkin per ramet with increasing clone age in trembling aspen. We found that mutations reduced relative male fertility in clonal aspen populations by about 5.8×10−5 to 1.6×10−3 per year, leading to an 8% reduction in the number of viable pollen grains, on average, among the clones studied. The probability that an aspen lineage ultimately goes extinct rises as its male sexual fitness declines, suggesting that even long-lived clonal organisms are vulnerable to senescence.

2. "Longevity, Senescence, and the Genome"
Caleb E. Finch
http://books.google.com/books?id=_J...=3&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=plants&f=false

• See section 4.4.2: Plants (page 230)

 

[daoboxer]

Hiya spurr,
Do you think that senescence in the way you describe could be something that certain cultivars or strains would succumb to faster/more than others? Or indeed that some would show no sign of it?
We have got a pretty heavyweight split of opinion on this, could it be that no-one is really wrong?

 

[Shred42O]

What i think might explain this is epigenetics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
epigenetics is the study of inherited changes in phenotype (appearance) or gene expression caused by mechanisms other than changes in the underlying DNA sequence, hence the name epi- (Greek: επί- over, above) -genetics. These changes may remain through cell divisions for the remainder of the cell's life and may also last for multiple generations. However, there is no change in the underlying DNA sequence of the organism;[1] instead, non-genetic factors cause the organism's genes to behave (or "express themselves") differently.[2]

 

[GreenintheThumb]

A virus could also explain these changes dependent on what he means by deformities.

 

[spurr]

Hiya spurr,
Do you think that senescence in the way you describe could be something that certain cultivars or strains would succumb to faster/more than others? Or indeed that some would show no sign of it?
We have got a pretty heavyweight split of opinion on this, could it be that no-one is really wrong?

Yes, that what I am leaning to, absolutely.

 

[spurr]

A virus could also explain these changes dependent on what he means by deformities.

I am not sure who you mean by "he", but I agree. It's been found viral attack can degrade clone fitness verses none viral attacked clones of the same generation and age.

 

[Microbeman]

We have got a pretty heavyweight split of opinion on this, could it be that no-one is really wrong?

I actually have not formed a true opinion or theory and have presented some info and statements supporting both outcomes.

E.G. as I stated earlier;

If one had perfect (or almost) growing conditions then I suspect one would not encounter DNA drift through cuttings of cuttings.

Originally Posted by GreenintheThumb
A virus could also explain these changes dependent on what he means by deformities.

Absolutely it could have been caused by virus or a number of things, although a virus is usually devastating as far as I understand and would radically effect crop outcomes (not sure on that one) but besides that whatever event or events occurred randomly over a period can cause chromosomal damage which when passed to subsequent generations in my understanding fulfills the definition of genetic drift.

I do, however get your point Greenin, in stating your thoughts that chromosomal damage is different than genetic drift in a population as this is normally associated with recognizable alleles, like color, potency, etc. rather than how I have used the expression associated with random yet recognizable deformities spread across the population. I guess the test would be whether I with a disease caused by DNA damage could pass it on to my offspring either through sexual or clonal propagation.

Coincidently, I do have a congenital deformity which I'm told would not be passed to any offspring but I wonder, when I get around to cloning myself, whether my clone will have similar deformities.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

On the subject of viruses:

They can cause symptoms like stunting, chlorosis, and overgrowth. Overgrowth symptoms can be hypertrophy and hyperplasia. They appear like distorted enlargements and thickenings of the leaves or flowers.

Could be what you saw, who knows. I certainly don't think it's evidence of chromosomal degradation caused by taking clones of clones.

 

[Microbeman]

On the subject of viruses:

They can cause symptoms like stunting, chlorosis, and overgrowth. Overgrowth symptoms can be hypertrophy and hyperplasia. They appear like distorted enlargements and thickenings of the leaves or flowers.

Could be what you saw, who knows. I certainly don't think it's evidence of chromosomal degradation caused by taking clones of clones.

The only potential evidence is in the trait being passed to subsequent generations. It would not be 'caused' by taking 'clones of clones' but restricted to the fact that rooted vegetative cuttings of previous cuttings is the only form of propagation. [an effect of taking cuttings of cuttings]

 

[Microbeman]

Sorry Greenin; this may not be very descriptive but the deformities of the leaves consisted mostly of folding or bending of the leaflets at approximately 45 degrees in no particular pattern; the flowers grew small secondary levels with pronounced bracts (I use bracts in the botanical definition not as usually used by cannabis book writers)

 

[Thomkal Vwalaa]

Yes, fully. Cannabinoid amounts (quantitative) is a phenotype that is greatly affected by the growing environment, fertilizers, etc. And cannabinoid ratios to other cannabinoids (i.e. chemotype; normally qualitative) is a genotype that is not greatly affected by the growing environment, fertilizers, etc.

My understanding is that cannabinoid ratios can be manipulated as well. THC will degrade into other cannabinoids if allowed to over ripen, or if aged post harvest. I am not certain this can "greatly" affect the cannabinoid ratios or the overall affects. Its hard to save buds long enough to compare .

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Yes, everything can degrade but the ratios are determined by genotype.

 

[Thomkal Vwalaa]

Coincidently, I do have a congenital deformity which I'm told would not be passed to any offspring but I wonder, when I get around to cloning myself, whether my clone will have similar deformities.

wait... what??! microbebaby?

 

[Thomkal Vwalaa]

Yes, everything can degrade but the ratios are determined by genotype.

Genotype would generally determine the ratio of THC:CBD:CBN (for example). But this could be altered pre and post harvest with natural degradation (letting them over ripen), or conversely picking early... correct?

Over ripening and you will see more products from the degradation of THC. Picking early and you will see more precursors to THC. Therefore the cannabinoid ratios are set by genetics, but can also be easily manipulated. To what degree I am unsure.

 

[303hydro]

Does anyone think that rooting time for new clones is affected by this? It seems that all the famous old clone only cuts I have came across, are some of the slowest I've ever seen to root. Thoughts?

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Genotype would generally determine the ratio of THC:CBD:CBN (for example). But this could be altered pre and post harvest with natural degradation (letting them over ripen), or conversely picking early... correct?

Over ripening and you will see more products from the degradation of THC. Picking early and you will see more precursors to THC. Therefore the cannabinoid ratios are set by genetics, but can also be easily manipulated. To what degree I am unsure.

No, the plant does not produce CBN directly, rather it is a degradation product formed by other Cannabinoids aging with storage.
As for picking early to change the Cannabinoid ratios, have you done this? I have many time and the ratio is pretty much fixed throughout flowering all that changes are the absolute amounts, the ratio remains constant, the terpenoids do change with different terpenoids peaking in maximum amounts at different times of maturation dependent on the terpenoid.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Hey headband707,
I think we all understand that you do not believe that a clone of a clone of a clone is as good as it was. Or that no one has 20+ year old clones as good as they were 20 years ago.
I have explained I have many clones over 20 years old, all the same as 20 years ago, and posted articles to support my view.
Where are your articles? Or personal experience? That espouse your point of view? Have you ever grown 20 year old clones?
When they were new and twenty years later, so you could make an informed opinion? Anyway I do understand how you feel...
That is unless someone gives you a great 20 year old clone of RKS?
Then you will be a true believer and become a another mindless follower and agree that clones can live forever? With only that little bit of proof? Hell, I got one one, I call it Skunk#2...
Over 20 years old....
-SamS

Okay guys YOUR RIGHT I'm wrong lol .. Thats what you want to hear right LOL.. There you go you got it >>> YOUR RIGHT I"M WRONG ..
Seriously I really find this whole conversation funny and let me tell you why..
Why would it even matter to anyone here how it works here in BC?
If this works out for you and I'm sure it does then stick by your guns but please stop trying to shove YOUR truth down my throat okay??? really nothing anyone here is going to do to change my mind or even show me data to support any claims won't change my mind one bit.. The only thing that would do that is if I had a cut that did exactly what your saying and so far that hasn't happened so lets just leave it at that and MOVE ON lol lol..
Bring me "Road Kill Skunk " the exact same shit I had back in the day and we will talk,,,as everyone knows TALK is cheap LOL.. peace out Headband707


I think I already concluded that PERHAPS it's lack of UV here in BC but hey keep talkin .... LOL.. Your truth is still NOT MINE so what do you want me to say??
Where is all the old great strains that have lasted 20+ years??? DO Tell EVERYONE that has all these fantastic strains that NO ONE else has LOL>>> DO FUCKING TELLLLLLL???????Seriously if you have these strains to die for then ,,where the fuck are they?? SERIOUSLY??? NO MORE BULLSHIT HERE???? please it is getting fucking old here!!!LOL..As we all know that nothing can go wrong with the DNA double helix in clones right ?LOL peace out Headband707

BIG fat PS here.... I have had 100's of growers go on and on about how good their cuts were and again ..I Beg to differ...lol

 

[THC4SIM]

Well UK cheese has been going around for 20 years as a clone only and that's still as potent as it ever was...

just my 2cents...

 

[ganjasuiteseat]

bow dat ass down

 

[cheesey]

Well UK cheese has been going around for 20 years as a clone only and that's still as potent as it ever was...

just my 2cents...

100% agree . then that dude dr rockster clamed his cheese clone turned male over night haha . i wonder what sam skunk man thinks of that ????

heres rocksters words on the matter .... I had an Exodus Cheese clone spontaneously reverse sex on going into flower which seems to have given me a 'mirror image' of the female and when the male (it was 100% male, NOT a hermaphrodite)