Clone of a Clone of a... Degredation Experiment

[MrFista]

Without environmental factors degrading vitality, we still need to consider the stage of a plant the clone is taken from. Plants have 3 stages of growth which I'm calling here - primary vegetative, adult vegetative, and flower.

Primary vegetative growth is marked by leaves with even distribution, one per side, on the stem. All side shoots from primary vegetative sites are primary vegetative growth. Clones from primary vegetative growth are possibly the most 'genetically intact' that is, the least changes have been made. But, these clones are from immature material, and so will have to grow through into adult vegetative growth before they flower. This growth is also typically shaded and will have less auxins as a result - add to this the proximity to the cytokinin producing roots... Still not hundred percent on this, I THINK that these clones are going to be problematic and will not root as easily as adult vegetative clones.

Adult vegetative growth is when the leaves begin to alternate positions, and are not directly opposite each other. The clones from this growth continue with alternately positioned leaves - adult vegetative growth. Theoretically these clones are more mature than their primary vegetative counterparts and should flower on cue.

Flowering induces hundreds of genetic changes with things switched off and others switched on. Clones taken from early flowering must reverse these changes to go back to vegetative growth. This is where mutations have the highest likelihood of occurence as the clone has massive genetic changes to undertake in order to become vegetative. Flowering clones often show increased branching, limited leaflets and irregular growth.

Why do some clones grow better smoke if it aint environmental? - a clone from parent material may become older than the parent, and thus a better smoke. I do not know why but it is anecdotally expressed widely that older plants have a better smoke and I must agree. A clone from a two month mum, then vegged for a month, then cloned, that clone has cumulative veg time in it's genes and whatever this entails is expressed... It adds up. A series of good cuts from adult vegetative growth will result in some well matured cuts that have never been flowered till you flower them. It would not surprise me at all if this was better material to smoke than the Mum even if they appeared genetically identical the phenotypic expression may change. This may explain why an old Mum makes for such a good smoke when you decide to flip her.

My advice is to use cuts from adult vegetative growth (typically apical cuts). I could change my position any day now if I learn more.

Sorry not so scientific with lack of references, these are my thoughts about clones. The plant biology stuff is generalised but based on science not my fancy.

 

[daoboxer]

But more than that my point "exactly" was that science is always relative and 303hydro posted a good link for us to follow up if interested http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tevWzkVrk2s There was no need to call him names or how'd you know he won't stress. It seems to me that any belief system is enemy to science and still science is totally dependent on beliefs and how we see the world.

I think you must be confused. If you read back through the thread you'll see that I haven't posted anything in response to 303hydro, let alone call him names!
Agree on the belief systems and science. Thats why we deal with proof in science. And in this case all the proof points in one direction, speculation and conjecture the other way. This is simply fact, regardless of pointless analogies.

 

[Microbeman]

Anyone have studies that show damage from clones of clones of clones?
Here are a few papers all saying they can't find damage from cloning:

I could find nowhere in these studies which outlines any chromosomal/environmental stressers applied which might reveal that 'they can't find damage from cloning'. I did read quickly so I may have missed it.

 

[VerdantGreen]

........

Primary vegetative growth is marked by leaves with even distribution, one per side, on the stem. All side shoots from primary vegetative sites are primary vegetative growth...........

.....My advice is to use cuts from adult vegetative growth (typically apical cuts). I could change my position any day now if I learn more.......

Sorry not so scientific with lack of references, these are my thoughts about clones. The plant biology stuff is generalised but based on science not my fancy.

a related question, but i have observed when taking clones from adult vegetative growth, that after rooting the growth 'reverts' beack to primary veg growth (leaves opposite on stem) for a few nodes before resuming adult growth again. cant say it happens with all strains/varieties but definitely with some...
does this mean that a clone can be once again 'immature' when first rooted ?? and when it goes back to adult, is the age the same as the plant it came from???

VG

 

[Honkytonk]

Anyone have studies that show damage from clones of clones of clones?

In the micropropagation/tissue culture context of your posted papers, what do you think about this?
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a713575833~tab=content~order=title

Somaclonal variation is the genetic variation that is sometimes observed when plants are regenerated from cultured somatic cells, compared to the plant used as a source of the culture. Such variation represents both a problem and an opportunity. For those concerned with micropropagation of valuable elite clones, this variation can result in problematic off-types that diminish the commercial value of propagules. Likewise, genetically enhanced (transgenic) plants are carefully screened to avoid unwanted and unintended somaclonal variation, so that the commercially released clone has only the beneficial effects from the transgene. On the other hand, some somaclonal variants have proved to be of agronomic and commercial advantage and in a limited number of cases have been released as new cultivars. Various types of somaclonal mutation have been described, including point mutations, gene duplication, chromosomal rearrangements, and chromosome number changes. Transposable element movement and changes in DNA methylation have been implicated as mechanisms behind some, but not necessarily all, somaclonal variation. It may be that somatic cells, both in the plant and in culture, naturally accumulate these changes and that the tissue culture environment provides an opportunity for these mutations to be uncovered in tissue culture-derived plants.

If we're not talking micropropagation/tissue culture but asexual propagation by taking cuttings I found there're only 2 mechanisms that would cause changes in clones' genomes: Mutation and horizontal gene transfer. Both are rather rare under normal circumstances and should be considered in an evolutionary context and will very unlikely be of any significance in a single grower's lifetime. The changes are not caused by the process of cloning a clone of a clone ...

 

[headband 707]

I found this post and they put it as well as I could say it .

I found this post and they put it as well as I could say it .

I work in an evolution lab working with both bacteria and flatworms and despite asexual reproduction all of the specimens show distinct senescence, or aging. This is mainly due to accumulated oxidation causing irreparable damage to both genetics and the other tissues. No organism is free from the restraints of aging and this gradual decrease in vigor is noticeable for example in the slowed division rates and asymmetry in bacteria (E. coli etc.); once thought have infinite possible lifespans.
So anything that metabolizes slows down, degrades over time. Add to that the annual expected lifspan and I strongly believe that some decrease in potency is inevitable. That being said, any potency decrease is likely very small over a few years time and factors such as grow conditions and care would produce much larger swings in potency.

 

[Mr.Jones]

What do you think about this?
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a713575833~tab=content~order=title


If we're not talking micropropagation/tissue culture but asexual propagation by taking cuttings I found there're only 2 mechanisms that would cause changes in clones' genomes: Mutation and horizontal gene transfer. Both are rather rare under normal circumstances and should be considered in an evolutionary context and will very unlikely be of any significance in a single growers lifetime.

well they are working with a single cell and using tons of enzymes and other stuff that can lead to unusual behaviour - taking clones you take a big mass of cells and regenerate them as a compound - if one is mutated you hardly will recognize it and it would be most likely in the root system ... (just my guess)

 

[Mr.Jones]

I work in an evolution lab working with both bacteria and flatworms and despite asexual reproduction all of the specimens show distinct senescence, or aging. This is mainly due to accumulated oxidation causing irreparable damage to both genetics and the other tissues. No organism is free from the restraints of aging and this gradual decrease in vigor is noticeable for example in the slowed division rates and asymmetry in bacteria (E. coli etc.); once thought have infinite possible lifespans.
So anything that metabolizes slows down, degrades over time. Add to that the annual expected lifspan and I strongly believe that some decrease in potency is inevitable. That being said, any potency decrease is likely very small over a few years time and factors such as grow conditions and care would produce much larger swings in potency.

im sure nobody argues about a genetic degradation over a long span of time. but if people tell me that they keep their plants 20years + and they dont experience any change that makes me think it must be a very very slowly process.

but i dont understand what leads you to the asumption that the potency would become less!?
it also could be that the plant actually has lost its rate of growth and gains potency ... just a thought.

 

[headband 707]

im sure nobody argues about a genetic degradation over a long span of time. but if people tell me that they keep their plants 20years + and they dont experience any change that makes me think it must be a very very slowly process.

but i dont understand what leads you to the asumption that the potency would become less!?
it also could be that the plant actually has lost its rate of growth and gains potency ... just a thought.

Well then let me tell you lol.. Perhaps it's the indoor growing that is popular here and the lack of UV to the bud. I can only tell you what I know to be true atleast for me. I'm sure lots of ppl have a different reaction to cannabis then I do. Personally all the plants I have grown personally and believe me I wanted to keep this one strain I had for a couple of years . But each time it was cloned it lost a bit more of whatever it had that I liked about it in vigor and potentcy. So I went out looking for more I found that others had the exact same problem as I did,, even more so IMVHO..lol..I would not have even thought about this until I wanted the strain back and I couldn't get what I had. This strain floats around town now but it's not what it was.
IMVHO you get your best genetics from a seed.. Then you can keep a mom for about 18 months tops and then she starts to lose her vigor from being forced for so long. According to some an older plant gets you higher. After 18 months of vegging she is finally turned and the bud is pretty strong.
Then you start to clone off of clones and you get the three leaves and one leaf and you can work on it but it takes a long time to bring the plant back to where it was when you dropped the seed.IMHO you don't get that back .... Now ppl can say whatever they want but to me the proof is in the puddin and I have yet to find that puddin lol peace out Headband707

BTW... this clone was the best PK on the planet lol..

 

[MrFista]

Hey Thanks Verdant - more with experience please chime in!

So the clones went back to juvenile growth - wow I wondered if they did... learning always learning. I'll watch my next clone attempts REAL close. Perhaps the juvenile growth will root faster with less reversion to go. Just the hormones confusing the issue now...

Now, readers, for fecks sake! - Clones are MERISTEM CULTURE.

Cell culture, ie: using somatic cells, is HIGHLY MUTAGENIC and is not cloning.

There is a massive difference in the two methods and the results. If you want identical clones you will always be guided to meristem culture.

 

[VerdantGreen]

yeah i looked in my galleries for pics in veg i know to be of clones... and i havent got one that shows it, but here is an underscreen shot of my blueberry cut that i took for your senescence thread. you can see the nodes are opposite in juvenile growth. the mum is over 2 years old, a clone of clone from a seed.

up top stretch is in full swing (stretchiest plant ive grown pretty much) and the nodes are alternate - adult growth again.

the other thing is that the leaves go back to being less bladed on cuttings, then the blades build up as the roots grow. not sure if that's related to age or simply root mass??

VG

 

[MrFista]

Ahhhh. Nice. I think what we are seeing is a plants need to grow roots from juvenile vegetative stage. So the reversion will occur with adult vegetative, so juvenile cuts might be easier on the plant genetically.

Excellent, thank you.

Edit - the leaves are rebuilding from juvenile expression through to adult as you say - I believe.

 

[Microbeman]

Genetic improvement with clones?

http://repository.lib.ncsu.edu/ir/bitstream/1840.16/1773/1/etd.pdf

 

[Honkytonk]

Now, readers, for fecks sake! - Clones are MERISTEM CULTURE.

Cell culture, ie: using somatic cells, is HIGHLY MUTAGENIC and is not cloning.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I am wondering how you separate the possibility of a clone getting less potent from you getting used to a variety and it not getting you as high as it used to? Didn't you say you get use to all varieties? And they don't get you as high as at first?
Also, FYI try smoking resin, I don't find I get use to great resin that is over 50% THC and rich in terpenes, I smoke the same amounts day after day, and I do get just as high.

-SamS

Well then let me tell you lol.. Perhaps it's the indoor growing that is popular here and the lack of UV to the bud. I can only tell you what I know to be true atleast for me. I'm sure lots of ppl have a different reaction to cannabis then I do. Personally all the plants I have grown personally and believe me I wanted to keep this one strain I had for a couple of years . But each time it was cloned it lost a bit more of whatever it had that I liked about it in vigor and potentcy. So I went out looking for more I found that others had the exact same problem as I did,, even more so IMVHO..lol..I would not have even thought about this until I wanted the strain back and I couldn't get what I had. This strain floats around town now but it's not what it was.
IMVHO you get your best genetics from a seed.. Then you can keep a mom for about 18 months tops and then she starts to lose her vigor from being forced for so long. According to some an older plant gets you higher. After 18 months of vegging she is finally turned and the bud is pretty strong.
Then you start to clone off of clones and you get the three leaves and one leaf and you can work on it but it takes a long time to bring the plant back to where it was when you dropped the seed.IMHO you don't get that back .... Now ppl can say whatever they want but to me the proof is in the puddin and I have yet to find that puddin lol peace out Headband707

BTW... this clone was the best PK on the planet lol..

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Can you quote a real research paper on Cannabis that shows cell culture on Cannabis causes mutations to the genome? I know it can for some species but has it actually been proven to with Cannabis?
-SamS

Hey Thanks Verdant - more with experience please chime in!

So the clones went back to juvenile growth - wow I wondered if they did... learning always learning. I'll watch my next clone attempts REAL close. Perhaps the juvenile growth will root faster with less reversion to go. Just the hormones confusing the issue now...

Now, readers, for fecks sake! - Clones are MERISTEM CULTURE.

Cell culture, ie: using somatic cells, is HIGHLY MUTAGENIC and is not cloning.

There is a massive difference in the two methods and the results. If you want identical clones you will always be guided to meristem culture.

 

[Mr.Jones]

I am wondering how you separate the possibility of a clone getting less potent from you getting used to a variety and it not getting you as high as it used to? Didn't you say you get use to all varieties? And they don't get you as high as at first?
Also, FYI try smoking resin, I don't find I get use to great resin that is over 50% THC and rich in terpenes, I smoke the same amounts day after day, and I do get just as high.

-SamS

thanks for saying that - i was about to say that but didnt have the courage!

maybe a cut cant live up to its memories or its legend sometimes

 

[headband 707]

I am wondering how you separate the possibility of a clone getting less potent from you getting used to a variety and it not getting you as high as it used to? Didn't you say you get use to all varieties? And they don't get you as high as at first?
Also, FYI try smoking resin, I don't find I get use to great resin that is over 50% THC and rich in terpenes, I smoke the same amounts day after day, and I do get just as high.

-SamS

I don't lol.. Not only do I get immune to the bud quickly but when I see all the variations of the bud after one year it looks weaker ,isn't as dank as it was. I am very aware of my own immune system and would happily blame that for not getting high. But I also notice in the grow that the plant is weaker. Now I guess you could say this is me I'm not growing these clones properly and leave it at that. But I notice that everyone has the exact same problem. This can't be a new problem lol.. If they had all the great bud of yester year then where the hell is it LOL?? Do tell lol... cause I would really like to get my "old road kill skunk" back personally lol. Resin I find it's great but I tend to get pretty tired when I smoke resin... As you know it's the strain and how good it is that works for me,, the stronger the better peace out Headband707

 

[kstampy]

I don't lol.. Not only do I get immune to the bud quickly but when I see all the variations of the bud after one year it looks weaker ,isn't as dank as it was. I am very aware of my own immune system and would happily blame that for not getting high. But I also notice in the grow that the plant is weaker. Now I guess you could say this is me I'm not growing these clones properly and leave it at that. But I notice that everyone has the exact same problem. This can't be a new problem lol.. If they had all the great bud of yester year then where the hell is it LOL?? Do tell lol... cause I would really like to get my "old road kill skunk" back personally lol. Resin I find it's great but I tend to get pretty tired when I smoke resin... As you know it's the strain and how good it is that works for me,, the stronger the better peace out Headband707

If you truly are a scientist, some of your comments scare me. What scientist with any ejemecation argues his points (which can be quite contradictory of themselves) with no fact/evidence against others that are presenting facts and makes remarks like "how come I cant find a 20 year old clone". Common sense will explain that one. I guess you can't learn that in school.

You should know what variables are, right? You go find any illegal 20 year old item easily and I will give you a hug AND a high five. Loving the sarcasm yet? lol.

'My puddin' proves you wrong and that's all I personally have but I am also not going to shove 'my puddin' down yours or anyone's throat here since I can't actually prove it with pictures or some form of evidence. Even if I did I really don't think I would Push my formulated opinion on the matter, merely share as most have been doing here. Some pretty abrasive opinions you have with nothing to back it up in there. Just sayin.

 

[Danks2005]

I haven't read the whole thread and I've always kept a mother from my seed plant, or a clone from seed plant, just because its easier for me and I had space for it.

My buddy has a small closet setup and no space for a mother plant. He clones 2-3 weeks after flipping to 12/12, then puts those clones in flower after harvest, and repeats. He has been doing this for at least 2 years with a Nirvana Papaya. A clone of a clone of a clone...and so on. I can tell you without a doubt, his product is the same every time. DNA does not change, keep em healthy and all is good.

I like a mother in a seperate space, because it is easier to keep my timeline proper, but it is not necessary to preserve genetics.