Chitosan

[BubbaBear]

Hey there BubbaBear

OO and I have spoke on the subject, he is very smart!

Chitosan is so versatile it can be used so many ways for so many different reasons, the stuff can be made into so many different forms.

So when OO says:

"Concentration is somewhere between 50 and 2000 ppm depending on the use (soil drench, foliar, systemic resistance induction etc.) and quality (molecular weight, degree of acetylation, etc.)."

He is not trying to be vague, he is telling you it at different PPM it has a different effect....Also all those other factors are just as important in determining the mode of action of the end product.

It is a crazy product, that is for sure.

Best wishes
shag

Hey Shaggy, thanks for your input.
Can you share your experience with chitosan? Did you notice a increase in terpine production? Any increase or decrease in yield?

 

[BubbaBear]

Fulvic acid is an anionic polymer, chitosan a cationic. Mixing both, depending on chemical structure of both (which is usually not well known and my differ from batch to batch), may lead to full precipitation or gel formation. Both not very practical.
Whether or not this 'cross-linked' macromolecular complex retains the advantages of either or both partners remains to be seen (but I'd guess you're more likely to lose at least some of the activity).

Priceless info thank you.
Do you know why root feedings are at such a higher ppm ?
I apply fulvic to all my root feed and most of my foliar feeds, l thought it was more of a universal chelate, what should I not use fulvic with?

 

[shaggyballs]

Hey Shaggy, thanks for your input.
Can you share your experience with chitosan? Did you notice a increase in terpine production? Any increase or decrease in yield?

I haven't actually used it yet, Stormshadow has if you can find him.

Sorry
shag

 

[TrinZilla]

What organic acid would you recommend dissolving the chitosan into?

You can also use hydrochloric acid, lactic acid or nearly any other acid instead of acetic acid. Phosphoric acid works too but might increase viscosity and cause precipitations at high concentrations, same goes for sulfuric acid but not as pronounced... other organic acids would have to be tested because show different additional effects such as increased viscosity.

Would Salicylic be a good choice?

 

[Only Ornamental]

Priceless info thank you.
Do you know why root feedings are at such a higher ppm ?
I apply fulvic to all my root feed and most of my foliar feeds, l thought it was more of a universal chelate, what should I not use fulvic with?

It's a rule of thumbs .
As soil drench, quite a bit of the active ingredients get lost somewhere between soil particles, run off, or get eaten by microbes. With foliar, the whole brew hits the plant. Because the leaf surface is way smaller than the root surface and also not designed for resorption, leaves can only handle small amounts.
Regarding chitosan: as 'immunostimulant' it doesn't need to be super concentrated.

Fulvic acid is good in soil/water for many reasons, chelation is just one of them. I know that many use it also as foliar; I can not comment on this as I lack personal experience and/or backed up scientific insights. BTW chelation isn't always good or necessary . Although, if you have clearly better results and healthier plants with foliar application of fulvic acid, then certainly don't stop using it !

Would Salicylic be a good choice?

Oh no! For one, to dissolve 1% salicylic acid (actually, you would need roughly 2%) you need over 60°C (nearly 80°C, respectively) hot water and for another, 1% SA will be as effective killing your grow as a lawn mower .
And even if you use less SA and chitosan, it still remains a bad choice because the main effect of chitosan on stimulating plant immunity is mediated via jasmonic acid: SA and JA are in most regards mutually antagonistic. Although, chitosan is compatible with both 'mediators', it's not recommendable to externally add one UNLESS you have a specific pest where you know the main signalling/resistance pathway. I think that most of the commonly encountered pests in cannabis growing (I can only guess without a poll ) are mediated by JA or first SA than JA. Adding SA to chitosan will hamper any JA mediated response.
And finally, the effects of JA on plant immunity coincide with several beneficial effects for tokers (like resin production and control of DELLA proteins) whereas SA causes unwanted effects in the eye of a grower (like stomata closure).

Got to go (for now)...

 

[BubbaBear]

Thanks OO, I think I got a grasp on using chitosan, I really appreciate the info. I love the effect Bud Factor X a chitosan has on my flowers but hate the price tag. When I run out of Bud Factor X I'm gonna get me a kilo of chitosan oligo lactate, do you think pharmaceutical grade would be any better than Ag grade for foliar feeds? Check out the link, they have a liquid too.

http://www.bestchitosan.com/e_products/?3-13-1-Agriculture,-Pharmaceuticals,-Others.html

 

[green thumbs]

As stated earlier in the thread, nutrifield cargo boost also contains chitosan. Has anyone used cargo boost and noticed good results ?

 

[Only Ornamental]

...do you think pharmaceutical grade would be any better than Ag grade for foliar feeds?...http://www.bestchitosan.com/e_products/?3-13-1-Agriculture,-Pharmaceuticals,-Others.html

Usually, there's no need for pharmaceutical grade. The advantage is a better defined and more homogeneous product. But you don't need a narrow weight distribution, a well determined degree of acetylation, or a high batch-to-batch consistency. That's only good for pharmaceuticals or lab tests.
On the contrary, having a broader size distribution and an irregular acetylation pattern increases efficacy with regard to boosting an immune response and increases the action spectrum. You may lose a bit efficacy regarding one single effect but in a normal growers life you're confronted with a broad set of low to medium impact 'threats' making a slightly weaker but brother ranged product favourable.
One point might be microbial contamination: For one, you don't use it as a medicine on ill people but during growth and early flowering on a plant. If you grow in soil or use compost tea on your plants, a few microbes more won't change a thing.
Another could be 'inorganic contamination', something important with regard to human medication but as grower, you call them 'micro-nutrients', 'trace elements', or 'fertiliser' . Harmful stuff like cadmium and lead should be low in both.

Maybe try the two products, run a side-by-side, and post your findings here? That would be great!

 

[BubbaBear]

Damn Shaggy was right your one smart guy I had to read that twice for it to sink in. Based on what you said I think i'll stick with the Ag grade but I'll try both the liquid concentrate and the powder. Thanks again for your help. One last question Iif you dont mind, Ive heard chitosan and harpin protien applied together have a synergistic effect. Do you have any info or experience using that combo?

 

[BubbaBear]

As stated earlier in the thread, nutrifield cargo boost also contains chitosan. Has anyone used cargo boost and noticed good results ?

I have used cargo boost, I did not know it had chitosan. I did have an exceptional batch when I used cargo boost, I root fed cargo boost and did weekly foliar feeds of Bud Factor X another chitosan product.

 

[Only Ornamental]

... One last question Iif you dont mind, Ive heard chitosan and harpin protien applied together have a synergistic effect. Do you have any info or experience using that combo?

I don't mind at all .
Depends... chitosan is somewhat special as it primes the plant to react quicker using both pathways (SA and JA). The main effect though is via JA.
Harpin on the other hand is not well studied, it's effects on plants are more marketing than actual results (e.g. LINK 1 and LINK 2, love that second one ). Anyway, harpin is not a 'primer' but a bacterial 'hypersensitivity response elicitor'. That means, it induces a strong, immediate, but short lasting response via SA. As mentioned earlier, SA is not the best friend of chitosan. Surely, combining both should boost an SA mediated response but that's only good if you have root nematodes, early bacterial infections, or fungi feeding on life tissue (e.g. powdery mildew or rust) within the next 1-2 weeks.
Oh, and you should not mix the two! Chitosan is basic, harpin acidic and I'm pretty sure the mixture will form a precipitate most likely reducing the activity of both. But you could treat with chirosan and when certain pests start to show up, use harpin to give the plant a well targeted kick in the A.

 

[TrinZilla]

Well, that is a wealth of information! Thank you!

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

im using it 1 gram per gallon with a crushed asprin per gallon in rez 2 x per week. from clone to harvest. eardth shattering thc counts. broke records at labs.
not sure what ppm that is.

 

[cyat]

http://www.growthproducts.com/pages/horticulture.asp?htmlpage=RecoverRx_Hort.html

Recover Rx: A Plant Prescription

It's been more than just luck - and a wonderfully serendipitous name - that have made David Plant a successful horticultural consultant. Plant, an Australian native who has lived and consulted in the rugged and desert-like climate of Arizona for the last 15 years, has worked hard to know the ins, outs, and detailed intricacies of plant health in both nursery and residential settings.

Plant has used and recommended Companion® biological fungicide, Essential®, 14-7-17 All-Purpose liquid fertilizer, and many other Growth Products' products over the years. But his recent experience with Growth Products' Recover Rx 3-18-18 with SA nearly has him doing cartwheels down greenhouse aisles.

Faced with withered brown roots and stressed foliage on 4 ½ inch pots of Geraldton Waxflower (another Australian native), Plant potted up the Waxflower and applied Recover Rx. "We were all amazed," Plant explains. "I saw an almost immediate difference. Literally within 4 or 5 days I saw healthier looking foliage and extensive white root growth."

Recover Rx

A relatively new addition to the Growth Products' product line, Recover Rx 3-18-18 with SA is a liquid solution that encourages plant growth, improves plant vigor, and rejuvenates stressed trees and shrubs.

Recover Rx contains 8 oz. of salicylic acid per gallon. This ingredient works synergistically to activate a plant's natural immune system so that the plant can better fight plant disease and withstand environmental stress. This well-documented phenomenon is known as ISR, or Induced Systemic Resistance.

The salicylic acid contained in Recover Rx is a natural plant hormone that is produced by plants whenever they are exposed to stress, whether it is environmental stress or disease stress. Salicylic acid occurs to some degree in all plants, but is produced in the highest quantities by willow (Salix) trees, from whence it gets its name. The active ingredient in aspirin, salicylic acid has long been known for its healing properties for humans, but is just now gaining recognition for its role in plant health.

Applied at times of stress, Recover Rx supplements a plant's natural supply of salicylic acid. Applied regularly in the absence of stress, Recover RX improves seedling growth, encourages early development in young plants, and increases blossom and/or fruit set on mature plants.

Recover Rx can be applied as a drench or as a foliar spray, is highly soluble, easy and safe to use, environmentally friendly, and has an exceptionally low salt index - all of which add to its appeal for David Plant. Plant has just started using it on pines, and says that he's so impressed with Recover Rx's results that he may well start using it on virtually everything. As a prescription for plant health, Recover RX appears to be just what the doctor - and David Plant - ordered.

What do u guys think of this product? maybe could be used as a bloom booster?

 

[Only Ornamental]

...
Recover Rx 3-18-18 with SA is a liquid solution that encourages plant growth, improves plant vigor, and rejuvenates stressed trees and shrubs. An inducer of SAR (systemic acquired resistance) does usually not encourage plant growth or improve vigour. And because SA is one of the two most important stress signals, I don't see how it could 'rejuvenate' already stressed plants.

Recover Rx contains 8 oz. of salicylic acid per gallon. This ingredient works synergistically synergistically with what? to activate a plant's natural immune system so that the plant can better fight plant disease and withstand environmental stress. This well-documented phenomenon is known as ISR, or Induced Systemic Resistance. Wrong, this phenomenon with regard to salicylic acid is known as SAR, systemic acquired resistance. Jasmonic acid (induced for example by rhizobacteria) leads to ISR. These two pathways of resistance are mostly mutually antagonistic.

The salicylic acid contained in Recover Rx is a natural plant hormone that is produced by plants whenever they are exposed to stress, whether it is environmental stress or disease stress No, just to about half of them. Salicylic acid occurs to some degree in all plants, but is produced in the highest quantities by willow (Salix) trees Again, Wrong again, willow trees produce high amount of salicin, 'sugar-bound' salicylic alcohol but not salicylic acid, from whence it gets its name. The active ingredient in aspirin, salicylic acid acetylsalicylic acid has long been known for its healing properties for humans, but is just now gaining recognition for its role in plant health.

Applied at times of stress, Recover Rx supplements a plant's natural supply of salicylic acid. Applied regularly in the absence of stress, Recover RX improves seedling growth, encourages early development in young plants, and may or at least does so in certain plants, not all increases blossom and/or fruit set on mature plants.
...
What do u guys think of this product? maybe could be used as a bloom booster?

Nice marketing. Not saying SA doesn't deserve some credit but like this... pfff...

 

[Iffy]

Only Ornamental?? - Only Bloody Genius!!

It's going to take me a while to absorb all that info (me & my dictionary) In fact I may never really appreciate a lot of it but it made fascinating reading.
I think you were fed a lot of fish as a child OO.
Peace, Regards & Happy Growing chap

 

[Only Ornamental]

...
I think you were fed a lot of fish as a child OO.
Peace, Regards & Happy Growing chap

Actually, it was brains... marinated in lemon juice, breaded, and sautéed; delicious! Now you know where the science part came from. And then they found out about the mad cow disease... might explain the 'mad' .
To you the same!

 

[Bill Bellamy]

Storm Shadow, how did you place your order with best chitosan? Ive sent those dickheads 3 emails over the course of 2 weeks with no reply. thanks, -bill

 

[shaggyballs]

Actually, it was brains... marinated in lemon juice, breaded, and sautéed; delicious! Now you know where the science part came from. And then they found out about the mad cow disease... might explain the 'mad' .
To you the same!

See I knew you were fundamentally a mad scientist at the core of it all.
Maybe mad cow scientist but none the less, still a mad scientist.

 

[habeeb]

I don't mind at all .
Depends... chitosan is somewhat special as it primes the plant to react quicker using both pathways (SA and JA). The main effect though is via JA.
Harpin on the other hand is not well studied, it's effects on plants are more marketing than actual results (e.g. LINK 1 and LINK 2, love that second one ). Anyway, harpin is not a 'primer' but a bacterial 'hypersensitivity response elicitor'. That means, it induces a strong, immediate, but short lasting response via SA. As mentioned earlier, SA is not the best friend of chitosan. Surely, combining both should boost an SA mediated response but that's only good if you have root nematodes, early bacterial infections, or fungi feeding on life tissue (e.g. powdery mildew or rust) within the next 1-2 weeks.
Oh, and you should not mix the two! Chitosan is basic, harpin acidic and I'm pretty sure the mixture will form a precipitate most likely reducing the activity of both. But you could treat with chirosan and when certain pests start to show up, use harpin to give the plant a well targeted kick in the A.

you my friend are a rock star.. your knowledge is ridiculous!! ( and I don't say this often.. maybe never )


I'm going to go through all your posts to super adsorb all your knowledge, or you can keep posting, and people will keep learning

THANK YOU..