changed from soil to coco, due to pandemic needed to use bricks, now need to change to rockwool

[DaEarl73]

I'm no expert, but you keep climbing the peers I notice

Some make a right to-do about reuse, but my methods are as far reaching as a garden riddle. No enzyme treatments or flushing so much I need to rebalance it with calmag or such like. On a huge scale, growers will save feed costs at the end, then before reuse they will fix the coco again. Personally, I don't break it. It's perfectly fine at the end of flower, so it's perfectly fine riddled and put back to use. Coco is really best purchased as a ready to use item, and never flushed. Flushing just releases K and Na ions from the coco itself. If you flush it, you really need calmag to flush with. Keeping these ions in place.

CEC of coco is widely reported, but it's not of any real importance as an end user, using coco feeds at the right intervals. The water once a day thing will bugger it right up. The plants won't stop taking feed such as Ca, and without free Ca in solution, the Ca will leave the sites and K and Na leaching from the decomposing coco will take the sites. Them we have a poor substrate. Next feed, the Ca++ being stronger that a + will displace these K and Na ions into the solution where they are freely available. The effect is your feeds Ca lost to the coco, and switched out for the other two. The plants is not very selective between K and Na, so it's being taken, and it's not good for them to eat Na. Softer tissue is formed, that is more susceptible.

Coco is best left alone, and the bottles followed. With any flush between uses, done with calmag. Or just with feed. So riddle it, and run some grow through until the runoff looks right for growing in again. Which should be right away. Any traces of bloom feed, usually mean K, which young plants like for rooting.

The real take-home from this, is keeping the coco in good condition, at all times. No flushing without the needed ions, or adding bloom boosters with npk numbers that reach lower orbit.


Riddle for consistancy. Don't stress about bits of root. Coco has a big microherd like compost. Compost/soil is little different to them bits of root. After a few years, your coco will handle like a soil. It evolves, but not in the negative way the sellers have you believe. I have had lab sampling done, and this speeding up of K and Na release, didn't show up.

I hope that wasn't too chewy for you.

so do you reuse your coco over years? what benefits do you see? you clean it or fluff it up again?

 

[DaEarl73]

Such is the unfounded prejudice which caused me to start that thread, and obtain 1 GPW with freebie genetics and very little care and nutes.

If you're worried about the dust, wear a dust mask. What about vermiculite with asbestos in it?

I didn't mention RW being the most environmentally unfriendly because really quite a lot of things going in the landfill are bad.

Maybe I have given tips on watering rockwool in relevant threads? Yes there are a couple tricks - draining cubes by setting them with a corner down and giving the small ones a shake, but once a cube is colonized it can be watered to runoff every hour. With a cube covering most of another cube, every watering (I like 15% min vol runoff) the air flows like a reverse chimney by capillary suction, and for sure the crown is not in any way drowning. It takes like a minute for the top cube to be sucked almost too dry by the bottom cube, which is dry for another 2" down if it's a Hugo. So IDK about moisture problems that no one needs to have. Watering frequency is governed by maintenance of pH and ppm in the root zone, easily automated, in addition to moisture, so I always make sure the most water hungry plant never gets anywhere near dry. Plants using way less water but getting the same amount and frequency aren't affected at all.

So a lot of RW needs conditioning. Coco needs more. Everything else is messy to varying degrees. RW is so clean. And light. I'd way rather set out 300 cubes than fill 300 pots with the finest soil. And get the bugs that soil/peat tends to invite.

I don't need to look to anyone for jack, my indoor experience goes back to 86, and if I was in a legal state and someone wanted to pay me I wouldn't hesitate to seriously build out an "obsolete" grow using RW in DWC with biofiltration, which is how I roll now, without the slightest shame.

thanks a lot, it helps me a lot! your thread is super interesting too, thanks for sharing! appreciate it

 

[DaEarl73]

short update: my plants are growing, trying to keep the rockwool moisty, because i read somewhere that it should never get dry, now i have a bit algue building up. is this a problem? they are looking healthy green. I will soon change the luxx led clone lights to the thinkgrow led and give them proper light. veg them a bit longer, cut clones and start another round in another room. cant wait to see them flower! have a nice one

 

[DARKSIDER]

short update: my plants are growing, trying to keep the rockwool moisty, because i read somewhere that it should never get dry, now i have a bit algue building up. is this a problem? they are looking healthy green. I will soon change the luxx led clone lights to the thinkgrow led and give them proper light. veg them a bit longer, cut clones and start another round in another room. cant wait to see them flower! have a nice one

Never allow it to dry out when its dry your roots are too not good, !! The algae can it not be covered ?? a covering over the rockwool perhaps each to there own, i have a bit algae on mine doesnt seem to bother the plants long as they can breath all should be good..

 

[Ca++]

so do you reuse your coco over years? what benefits do you see? you clean it or fluff it up again?

Many many years. I have cored out the old plants to leave a hole to pot the new plant into. A no till attempt. It was not quite as good as riddling the lot, which gets out a lot of root and does some fluffing. You could do it at a push, but for that last few percent, riddle it.
I'm not sure I saw benefits beyond handling. The second and third run seems a bit better, but it's not happened often enough to be entirely sure. The real reason behind my reuse, is not having disposal and replacement issues. It's neigh on inert, so there is just no need to do more than riddle it. Any carrying it about is excess waste disposal and excess shop visits. Bags of substrate are my only reason to visit the shop with a car. Which here, means you could get followed or your number taken down. It's better to park away, and walk/cycle

 

[alpo]

you tried the coco coir cubes

 

[mme_oscar]

so do you reuse your coco over years? what benefits do you see? you clean it or fluff it up again?

Hi, I used to reuse my Coco when I was using minerals. I used to remove some roots with the rockwool cube used to clone. A bit of enzyme and a small top up to keep my pots full. When I pulled roots it tended to fluff it up a little but honestly I was more about getting everything ready for the next crop asap. No real benefits to reuse it yield wise. But I used to grow in flats and it allowed me to have little to nearly no media to dispose of. Plus 70L of press dry Coco is like 40*40*20 cm. And I find ugro (the main Coco brand you'll find around here, coarser than canna's) far better than canna when used with drippers.
Even in badly insulated flat I muffled my pumps (+/-600w) by using a pond filter underneath. It was 1 min 2 to 6 time a day and less noisy than my fan. Neighbours never complain.

On an other hand, using RW cube is really fast to set up, specially if using flood and drain (drippers are a pita on a certain scale). However 300* rockwool cubes take a lot of place when you want to bin them. They'll need to be fully dry to be discretely disposed. (300 will be something like 150kg fully wet). They don't dry as fast without plants.And if you're planet friendly, you can't just use your bin.

Another good tip when hydrating this kind of Coco is a tad less water than what's on the label and use a concrete mixer to fluff it up. I now grow organic Coco so I hydrate my Coco, mix it and add my amendments. Obviously you won't be able to do so in a flat.

 

[DaEarl73]

Hi, I used to reuse my Coco when I was using minerals. I used to remove some roots with the rockwool cube used to clone. A bit of enzyme and a small top up to keep my pots full. When I pulled roots it tended to fluff it up a little but honestly I was more about getting everything ready for the next crop asap. No real benefits to reuse it yield wise. But I used to grow in flats and it allowed me to have little to nearly no media to dispose of. Plus 70L of press dry Coco is like 40*40*20 cm. And I find ugro (the main Coco brand you'll find around here, coarser than canna's) far better than canna when used with drippers.
Even in badly insulated flat I muffled my pumps (+/-600w) by using a pond filter underneath. It was 1 min 2 to 6 time a day and less noisy than my fan. Neighbours never complain.

On an other hand, using RW cube is really fast to set up, specially if using flood and drain (drippers are a pita on a certain scale). However 300* rockwool cubes take a lot of place when you want to bin them. They'll need to be fully dry to be discretely disposed. (300 will be something like 150kg fully wet). They don't dry as fast without plants.And if you're planet friendly, you can't just use your bin.

Another good tip when hydrating this kind of Coco is a tad less water than what's on the label and use a concrete mixer to fluff it up. I now grow organic Coco so I hydrate my Coco, mix it and add my amendments. Obviously you won't be able to do so in a flat.

yes trashing the substrate always was the trickiest part. getting rid of 100 bags (3pots in1) was always a challenge, but yeah every normal person is producing trash too, so its kind of the most normal action, just a bit of pothead paranoia maybe hahaha. yes when i used the coco bricks i also used less water then recommended and i could mix all the coco in big trays, i used 10l blocks because they soak the water faster than the 50l ones. was really nice getting the bricks into the flat compared with the 60 soil bags before, and now i enjoy this benefit with the RW. i just have to think how to recycle them in the best way. thanks for your input, appreciate it

 

[Ca++]

I sometimes find rockwool plugs when digging my outdoor plots. I have not used them in years, but they look no different now, to the day I put them out.

I don't think rockwool is recycled. It's disposal is one of the reasons the biggest growers are happy to see the back of it. All we can do is get it to landfill. Making your domestic waste the most controlled option.

Draining it isn't hard, if you can stack it. Buckets on buckets perhaps. Fill the bath and tread it flat. Or just build towers. Any rockwool a foot from the base of your tower, is dry in moments. Water has little reason to stay in a block, if offered a way out. The water column in a few blocks is quite a weight pulling downwards. If it can drain away. I think it was touched upon, that putting a soaked 4" on top of another, was a good way to get it to a better weight, before sticking the plug in it.

Any waste system that isn't pushing you to recycle the substrate and use it again, is usually a disaster. Most people, and I mean most, will just collect their rubbish. People go to jail for more rubbish weight than crop sometimes. The mentality that their will be more tomorrow, makes most of us pull leaves and just sit them down. It's just different degree's of poor waste handing.

Most of us could do with a food blender for those 'few leaf' sessions. They will take cuttings in their blocks. A 1.2 of leaf, is just a few blenders full. Simply half fill with water, and feed in the leaves as it's running. Most waste-works will lead to your leaf being spread on fields. Running your coco forever, means stalk and roots need to go. Each time with some coco, make make room for the incoming plant, that is usually in new coco. Coco twig and root will burn or compost. They are not a hazard to the environment, and you might have somewhere to burn them. A well stacked fire bin puts a big blue flame out the top burning rootballs and twigs. A heap of damp coco just smoulders though. You need to get it right.

Buying coco commercially, you get offered quite a few grades. From course fiber, to something like compost. Most of the time, you would decide on your blend. Canna coco is sometimes called coco peat, as it's towards that end of the scale. While canna cogr is close the the other end. It comes as slabs, bagged up, that you hydrate yourself. It's for drip systems. Broken up into pots, it holds little water. This is the type of thing people ditched rockwool for. Drier conditions with more regular fertigation.

 

[G.O. Joe]

5 minutes 8 times a day isn't regular enough? Once a cube is completely colonized, its water retention declines and is impossible to overwater IME, especially a 6" cube as the RW only supports a 4" water column, essentially becoming a hempy bucket.

All I'm going for is maximizing ease, convenience, availability, cost/benefit and general environmental neatness. Gnats are a particular concern. Many here think in a completely different way.

It's hard to beat that combination of AOK's for seeds and clones, put in the 4" cubes after a while, then on a 6" cube fit snugly in something to support it all a while after that, adding a timer and minimal plumbing. Except for the cost of the cubes. Buying them by the case helps, the system gets better with size.

But commercially, that can be improved with a more troughish system, which can scale to acres size with ease and common parts while satisfying demands for slickness, using only 30% of the amount of RW.

Another thing about RW is that it provides great support for the plant at the base, better than anything else I've tried, the whole block becomes rather firm and can become almost impermeable with roots.

 

[Ca++]

Quote:

Negative Health Impact​

Due to its inability to fully breakdown, rockwool fibres eventually make their way into our ecosystem. This is similar to microplastics, which are showing significant impact on soil as well as animal and human health. In a 2012 study, rockwool was determined, among popular growing mediums to have the highest impact on human health.

Not Sustainable​

Another disadvantage of rockwool is the amount of energy required for its production. Rockwool is manufactured all around the globe, often using non-renewable energy sources. This, along with the cost of extraction of starting materials and transportation, contributes to rockwools large carbon footprint.

End of quote


It's itchy. That should give a clue as to how your lungs feel about the golden sand it leaves. It's no different to asbestos. It irritates our lungs, and we start encasing it. It's the mechanism of asbestosis. We don't stop attacking it. Even when it's a big lump of useless lung space.


I worked it for years. I do understand the simplicity of it. It's worth making some effort to use something else though.

 

[DaEarl73]

how is it going? small update: the veg is going well so far, they like the thinkgrow. some of them got like a slimey algue on it, can this be a problem, looks like they had been to wet, but they look healthy so far. Iwill soon cut clones and put them into small veg-tent, ordered a 2nd tent for flower in the same size like the 1st one. once the clones are rooted they will go into tent 2 and I will get a system startet with every 6 weeks harvest. like this is the easiet way to keep with the genetics (once i found my keepers). have a nice one

 

[G.O. Joe]

Maybe the difference between algae and no algae for you is a fan, or maybe your rockwool spends too much time being heavy. While the root system is still spreading, it's best that RW spends most of the time not feeling light or heavy. Anything organic which is not ganj is bad because it all attracts bugs.

I sometimes find rockwool plugs when digging my outdoor plots. I have not used them in years, but they look no different now, to the day I put them out.

So this was not in an acid soil, under 5.5 pH. RW dissolves somewhat easily in acid.

NO ONE In The Year 2525...is going to be crying about past/present/future use of rockwool. They probably won't even speak of fiberglass, made in much larger quantities.

Surely the use of plastics in every other aspect of the grows of many is worse.

If you have data showing RW hazard is anywhere near asbestos, post it.

 

[Ca++]

Maybe the difference between algae and no algae for you is a fan, or maybe your rockwool spends too much time being heavy. While the root system is still spreading, it's best that RW spends most of the time not feeling light or heavy. Anything organic which is not ganj is bad because it all attracts bugs.



So this was not in an acid soil, under 5.5 pH. RW dissolves somewhat easily in acid.

NO ONE In The Year 2525...is going to be crying about past/present/future use of rockwool. They probably won't even speak of fiberglass, made in much larger quantities.

Surely the use of plastics in every other aspect of the grows of many is worse.

If you have data showing RW hazard is anywhere near asbestos, post it.

They may speak of fiberglass in the same breath as asbestos. Again, it's something we can breathe in but not dissolve. We look at people taking Mercury as madness, so they will perhaps feel the same about us limiting our life expectancy.

I'm not sure I can produce an article. It's not something I read. I'm trained to work with asbestos. This gave the knowledge of what asbestosis is. The mechanism behind it, and risk assessment. It's here that other substances come into the mix, and the desire to have them regulated, though we must turn a blind eye.

If you need more, it won't come in a link. Though you could look at what asbestosis actually is. Just be aware that they will talk about it being from asbestos, and try to see the mechanism in depth. Understanding that is where you see that it's not asbestos to blame. Which is not a poison of any sort.

Asbestos is simply avoidable. When we can avoid fiberglass and rockwool, they will also be stopped. Until then, they have safety gear requirements, that people will ignore, because they don't see how these things can be bad. Thinking they are a million miles from asbestos, which is banned because it's poisonous, or something. It's not. There is little separating them, and their safe handling.


Edit: My sites go as low as 4.9 and I see no difference in blocks at least 10 years old.
I think I have them all out now.

 

[DaEarl73]

small update: still handwatering, will put soon some medusas tough, because they are getting more and more difficult too handle like that. take it easy with handwatering, irrigate slowly that the water doesnt just spit out everywhere and they just get wet feet, the rockwool need time to soak. still waiting for the plants to have a proper size to cut clones and start the second cycle. so far I like how they are doing, the problem with the algue was solved with another fan and more airflow, thanks G.O-Joe! i never had stems like that in that stage and the roots are looking nice too. looking forward how they will look and smell in flower! thanks for all the tips and ideas, appreciate it. will be soon posting pictures. have a nice one!

 

[rustlessbiscuit]

For me, you are one of the most respected posters here. I'm quite shocked to hear you think it's problems are lesser than any other medium. You are obviously mistaken. It's a disposal problem, too wet and generally wrongly specified. Nobody knows how to handle the stuff properly, and as such it's going to be causing lung problems. Other substrates are just not killing us. Which I don't think falls on the side of rockwool.

I'm extremely satisfied that I don't have to use the stuff anymore. It was cuttings where it took some replacing. Which is the only place I know anyone that uses it now. Commercially, 20% of pot growers use it in some form. I suggest, that like those around me, it's generally for cuttings.

When 'hydro' was big, some 30 years ago, almost everyone used rockwool. Putting blocks and slabs in gutters and on nft coffins. The shop was selling it to everyone. Now they don't stock slabs and the shelf of blocks gathers dust.

Look around. If you are still raving about rockwool, you are missing out

What substrate are you using now?

Coco?

 

[DaEarl73]

What substrate are you using now?

Coco?

no i changed to rockwool, any tips? for now they are looking fine

 

[rustlessbiscuit]

no i changed to rockwool, any tips? for now they are looking fine

Was replying to ca++.

And unfortunately not from me I grow in perlite/coco, and some aero.

 

[Ca++]

Was replying to ca++.

And unfortunately not from me I grow in perlite/coco, and some aero.

I'm toying with the idea of an aero cloner, and F&D pebbles. Though might still start my cuts in coco. Standard gardening practice, of seed trays filled with coco instead of compost. I use canna, which is a coco peat almost. It handles like compost would.

I really like the F&D pebbles, but potting up has it's difficulties. I may have to build a scale model of my flowering buckets, for the smaller veg space.


Pebbles/coco/compost They all have their uses.
I have never gained anything from Perlite though. I use small pots for multiple feedings. It can't stay wet for long. Though I do see a bigger pot with perlite might offer more root space, I don't use big pots. Typically 4 pots per meter, holding about 10L of coco each. That leads to 1 a day feeding.
On occasion I have used 8 pots per meter, with as little as 1L in each. Watering multiple times a day. As many as 6

It would be interesting to see just how much the water spreads out, when dripped into coco with perlite. At 50/50 I hand watered, and it just fell through. I suspect at 30% the water is still running out before it's spread fully. With no perlite, you get a wider wetting from each emitter. The liquid is less likely to drop, as it has more material to spread out sideways through. These are important considerations. Though I have seen people drip even pebbles. Using them ring things.

 

[DaEarl73]

how is it going?

small update: cut some clones, put drip system, removed males, tent is full and flipped into flower. 2nd tent ready to get filled, just waiting for the clones to root well.

have a nice one, take it easy, but take it!