Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[DrFever]

500 bucks still seems steep for someone;s modest grow specially for a 27" x 27 " maybe LED might be a better route idunno just saying savings on power consumption, life span of said bulb vs LED as well as heat distribution cause really if you think bout it by the time you set it all up how much are you into i mean cool tube . Fans extra's etc and for a 315 ???? where possibly going other route might be cheaper and have better returns or to recap your costs faster

 

[Jhhnn]

I'm helping a friend set up a 27"x27" personal medical grow cab, and she'd like to go with CMH / CMD - What's the best option? She needs something that's air-cooled, 120V, reasonably priced, and a good fit for the space. Should she go with a 400W CMH (via 400W HPS ballast that she already has), 300W CMD (via 400W MH ballast), or 315W CMD (via 315W CMD ballast)? She already has a cool tube wired for mogul socket / Hydrofarm ballasts, for what it's worth...

That's only 5.1 sq.ft. I'd be very leery of using anything more than 250w or equivalent w/o plans for very strong ventilation. That's 50w/ sq.ft.

Be aware that the 210 & 315 systems are very pricey- voltage converter, electronic ballast, socket & bulb.

OTOH a CDM205/U/O/4K EA Allstart should give good results, having equivalent output to a 250w MH while operating on an inexpensive magnetic MH ballast. It also has a better spectrum than conventional MH or HPS-

http://advancedtechlighting.com/cdmallstart.htm

 

[rives]

I use a 315w in an GL80 tent, which is roughly 32" square. With an air-cooled reflector the 315 runs cooler (120 cfm fan drawing through a carbon filter, then the hood, then the fan) than when I was using LEDs. I don't have a/c in my house and the tent normally runs in the high 70's.

Depending on how adept you are at DIY, a 315 installation can be done pretty economically. Turn-key gear is a different story entirely.

 

[Jhhnn]

I use a 315w in an GL80 tent, which is roughly 32" square. With an air-cooled reflector the 315 runs cooler (120 cfm fan drawing through a carbon filter, then the hood, then the fan) than when I was using LEDs. I don't have a/c in my house and the tent normally runs in the high 70's.

Depending on how adept you are at DIY, a 315 installation can be done pretty economically. Turn-key gear is a different story entirely.

Makes sense. That roughly 7.1 sq.ft, 45w/sq.ft. It's probably the lighting equivalent of 55-60w/sq.ft. of ordinary HID due to superior characteristics of the 315.

Your excellent results speak for themselves.

I've been poking at ebay & craigslist for bargain 315 ballasts, to no avail. Any search tips?

 

[rives]

Keep an eye out for Philips' subsidiaries like WideLite, disregard the descriptions and look at the pictures carefully. I bought several ballasts from WideLite that were advertised as 630w autotransformer ballasts, and the pictures of them with the housings opened up clearly showed that they had (2) of the 315w electronic ballasts in them. I thought that the seller had screwed up the description, but they had copied the factory labeling verbatim. Goofy.

 

[HorseBadoritiz]

Keep an eye out for Philips' subsidiaries like WideLite, disregard the descriptions and look at the pictures carefully. I bought several ballasts from WideLite that were advertised as 630w autotransformer ballasts, and the pictures of them with the housings opened up clearly showed that they had (2) of the 315w electronic ballasts in them. I thought that the seller had screwed up the description, but they had copied the factory labeling verbatim. Goofy.

Looks like the 630W may be for a 2 lamp street lite. Philips also make a 3 light one... break out the cordless sawzalls!

 

[Drek]

if you are quite sure then ima guess the facts and sources are just gonna irritate you. so your right. That 860W is a heck of a bulb.

First you told me that there is no such thing as a Philips 860w CDM; that they don't/can't make it(which they clearly do)...which was third hand rumours that were circulating pot forums 4 years ago. Now you're telling me that it only puts out less than 1.4umol, which even many standard lamps are able to accomplish.

Your arguments seem more about defending your ego, than facts, per say....which you're claiming as well.

What annoys me most is people that think an Agro lamp, is the only lamp that can grow cannabis, which is obviously, clearly false. Agro lamps aren't even designed around cannabis, they're designed around food, flowers and other commercial, consumer type plant life that greenhouses offer on the market.

CDM lamps have better color rendering, especially in the red range(usually) than (older)MH lamps. Even the regular MH that philips produces currently looks like a good lamp. Another good one to consider.

http://download.p4c.philips.com/l4b/9/928601179901_na/928601179901_na_pss_aenaa.pdf

Standard MH at 3500k CCT...with realistic UVB output(380uW)...however, having that much UVB present poses a real danger to eye-health. Assuming UVB even add's anything beneficial. Having that much high-energy available, may lessen the size as well, if you're the type that pines over yield.

 

[LargePrime]

I'm helping a friend set up a 27"x27" personal medical grow cab, and she'd like to go with CMH / CMD - What's the best option? She needs something that's air-cooled, 120V, reasonably priced, and a good fit for the space. Should she go with a 400W CMH (via 400W HPS ballast that she already has), 300W CMD (via 400W MH ballast), or 315W CMD (via 315W CMD ballast)? She already has a cool tube wired for mogul socket / Hydrofarm ballasts, for what it's worth...

i would call tom at advanced tech lighting. he has a combo that includes a 220v up converter. he will wire up the ballast, socket, and a little reflector. you can give him the dimensions. should be great for that tent. the cycloptics reflector covers the same size. Runs around 250.

 

[rives]

Looks like the 630W may be for a 2 lamp street lite. Philips also make a 3 light one... break out the cordless sawzalls!

That is exactly what they were for - 2 lamp, remote ballasted street lights.

 

[LargePrime]

First you told me that there is no such thing as a Philips 860w CDM; that they don't/can't make it(which they clearly do)

The 860W is several years older tech than the elite series. Again 2 X 315 put out more lumens at less power than an 860W. (not that lumens are great, but it is what we have) And that is burdening the 315W with the ballast wattage and giving the 860W a free pass on that. It is right there in the tech docs I linked. And the 315 Will last longer and be brighter longer and the ballast will last longer.

Again that is right there in the tech docs I linked. The newest bulb Philips has made is the Agro. I don't know of any new product than that. If someone does then please share. I know the 860W is many years and several generations older than the agro.

I will not "fight" about this. As I have said the 860W is a great bulb. I will leave this info for the reader to sort for themselves.

P.S. I personally exchanged emails with bill busch at philips and he said (1 year ago) that the Master Color Elite was not made in larger wattage's as there were "some issues" that he thought would be fixed soon. The materials issues is gleaned from several technical sources, and is a guess/conjecture of a few technical people. There is also the thought that fighting for a higher wattage is not really worth it as one can just install several 315W. And we see that very thing noted in rives latest posts.

 

[Drek]

I am assuming(probably incorrectly) that the issues are pertaining to running high wattage CDM on electronic ballasts. Electronic ballasts, as we all know, are not necessary(and are not marketed with the intention towards, imo) to grow a personal, small to medium sized garden of weed.

315 is perfect for that. Guy's with bigger gardens who believe power impacts there yield/weight(which I tend, more or less, to agree with) would need something bigger.

 

[rives]

It's my understanding that the limit on the lamp size is a result of the high internal pressures that the 315 generates (up to 20x atmospheric pressure, or approaching 3,000 psi). They haven't come up with a combination of materials that work to safely contain those pressure levels in larger lamps. The ballast limitations are a result of the frequency - high frequency input power will rattle the CDM's apart.

 

[Drek]

That was the going rumour that I read as well. However, they've long since produced a CDM that works fine at 860w, but it only works on magnetics. DNA tried it with their(marketing approach) custom electronic ballast and failed.

So......I'm guessing that any issues they may be having with higher wattage CDM, would be about the ballasts...and not about the pressures or, ...ie: electronic ballasts at those pressures and those wattage's.

Getting it all to work together on electronics.

The 'nipples' on the end's of the arc's would need to be stronger, etc...AFAIU, at those frequencies.

 

[Jhhnn]

The industrial market for lamps >1000w is small, I suspect. That's the big market, and that's where the Philips CDM line is basically oriented, commercial lighting. They created replacement lamps that save operators money on the electric bill while producing the same amount of light as MH. HPS is unusual in such environments at this point, having been supplanted by MH long ago for the most part. Newer facilities are almost exclusively MH & fluorescent.

As we've discussed, the 315 series is a whole new system and standard developed by Philips for the European commercial lighting market, where operating costs are even more important. With the exception of the 315 agro, it's just a happy coincidence that any serve growers as well.

Dunno that they can't make higher wattage CDM- I'm not sure they even tried.

 

[rives]

That was the going rumour that I read as well. However, they've long since produced a CDM that works fine at 860w, but it only works on magnetics. DNA tried it with their(marketing approach) custom electronic ballast and failed.

I know that you want to argue the point, but they are entirely different lamps. The 860 is part of the Allstart family of retrofit lamps, and the T-series is not. Different efficacy, different operating voltages, different operating positions, different lifespans, different temperatures, etc, etc. I would be very surprised if the internal pressures were anywhere near equivalent, but I haven't been interested enough in the 860 to have done any research on it.

 

[Drek]

I think 315 owners want to make them more different than they actually are. At it's heart a CDM is a CDM... Allstarts work on magnetics, for sure. New ones are engineered to handle high frequency electronics; don't think there's anything TOO amazing there. Or is there? The very nature of a CDM is high pressure, they're all high pressure. Anyway, they aren't that special to me, I see them for what they are....and sure, I'd run one...but I would kid myself about what it is. It's a ceramic metal halide, designed to run on electronics to save $, etc.

> If it isn't a CDM, they should call it something else.

 

[rives]

Saying that a CDM is a CDM is like saying an internal combustion gasoline engine is an internal combustion gas engine. The basic engineering principles remain the same, but there is a pretty substantial performance difference between a flathead Ford and a modern engine of equivalent cubic inches.

No, I don't think that there is anything magic going on there, but there has been a substantial evolutionary development. I've used everything except plasma over the years, and the CDM-T series outperforms any lamp of vaguely comparable wattage that I've used.

I do find it pretty amusing that the people who keep saying that the 315 is the same as the other CMH lamps are the ones who have never used one.

 

[Drek]

I said that I would be perfectly willing to run one. I'm quite sure that I know what to expect as well. I've made my way through tons of threads on the internet and respect the work that you and ten thirty have done, but still it's a ceramic metal halide lamp available in different color temperatures just like every other CMH lamp. There's too much magical thinking surrounding the 315, which is what I'm attempting to dispel.

I would run one, but I've had perfect great results, size, health and potency with a retro cmh(as well as many others)....why would I run out and blow $500 or more when I have a box of Retro's that work great that I got for $150? And a box of 860's for $120?

No other costs associated.

Maybe someday I'll make the jump, and I would be perfectly happy to if I thought that everything else involved in growing wasn't as or more important. If I was starting totally fresh with nothing? Sure...I'd run with the 315.

Anyone that has spent the money is obviously going to say that the magic 315 is sooo much better....however, I majorly doubt the advantage is actually what they think they're seeing, as much as what they're not. The electrical efficiency and cost efficiency.

 

[rives]

Trying to justify the cost isn't my issue - I spent from $20-45 for my ballasts, and most of my lamps were $20/ea. I did pay $75 for one Agro. Unfortunately, I've got about $3500 into LEDs that are currently being used to collect dust because the 315s do a much better job for me and I prefer white light.

The current retail cost of this gear is certainly a factor to be considered. If you are happy with what you have, great. However, trying to convince yourself and others that the older lamp design it is fully equivalent to the latest developments in CMH is merely self-deception until you try one.

 

[LargePrime]

I think 315 owners want to make them more different than they actually are.

Thats fucking bullshit.

Every contributor this thread has been good , kind , decent folk, who have gone out of their way to help other people. They dont even care if readers wont search the thread, or listen, or even look at the references provided. Crap that will get alot of readers grief on other forums.

Your implying that they are a bunch of assholes who get together to get people to buy the same shitty expensive bulbs they have is uncalled for, and I am calling you out for doing it.

At it's heart a CDM is a CDM... Allstarts work on magnetics, for sure.

So any light bulb is a light bulb, and none are any better than any others? Fucking retarded thinking right there.

You have been repeatedly shown that this is bullshit. That the CDM-T/Elites are way more efficient with better spectrum and last WAY longer. Your calling them the same does not make them so. You can run 3, 315W bulbs for the same power you are running in that 860W and get 50% more, and better quality light and less heat. You don't want to do that? That's fine. And no one in this thread has called you or anyone else stupid for not doing it.

New ones are engineered to handle high frequency electronics

Exactly nope. The "New ones" actually use a LOW FREQUENCY electronic ballast. And you have been repeatedly linked to that fact.

don't think there's anything TOO amazing there. Or is there?

Nope nothing at all. Except all the people who have tried them are saying that there is. other than that, nope.

The very nature of a CDM is high pressure, they're all high pressure.

Are they? Are they all high pressure? when your 860W pop, do they go off like a hand grenade?

Anyway, they aren't that special to me, I see them for what they are....and sure, I'd run one...but I would kid myself about what it is. It's a ceramic metal halide, designed to run on electronics to save $, etc.

But you have not actually seen them. So saying you see them for what they are, when those who have actually seen them say otherwise, well there is prolly a word for that.

> If it isn't a CDM, they should call it something else.

A computer is a computer! One made in 1990 is the very same thing as one make 20 years later! AND IF THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THEY SHOULD NOT CALL IT A COMPUTER!

Wishing does not make it so.

You know, i don't care. Where is the ignore button?...