Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[simba]

deft.. its better in height width depth.. only cause i could assume many possible dimensions to achieve 42cf could be tall as hell or wide as all can.. to many choices
i could try to guess based on 24" or 48" flouro fixture but ya whats the dim..

a floro setup can range in heat emitted (ballast effeciancy) small variance but enough..

but in short Prob ya.. if you already 77 with floro a 250 cmh you may have to (depends on height mainly and fans.. a 6bay t5HO fixture will put off heat just not as bad as hps..its kinda like CMH not throwing heat but rather letting it raise up..and out..

maybe add some gas itll allow higher temps but then them girls get Hungry.

 

[Deft]

Its a 2.6' wide 2' deep 8' tall closet, I've just got CFLs now. Ventilation is possible but would require a hole in the ceiling which I could do but prefer not to.

 

[Bigtimer7]

Hey simba, I bought my Cmh bulb and one of them after 2 months of use, I turned it off and then brought it to my veg room and tried to turn it on after plugging it into a extention cord for appliances it would not work? It now will not turn on do you know what this could be from?

 

[simba]

Big sorry i saw the earlier reply but forgot to get to it..
hmm sounds like something came loose during the move..
extension cord for appliance (im thinking u mean heavy duty) even if chinsy would not affect ballast or lamp (only a fire hazard in the cord itself during operation)
ignitor could be going also (getting old) cmh's doesnt like a warn out ignitor or cap for that matter (but thats like many years of owning (if good parts inside ballast)

Deft, hmm that tall and still warm..
but it is small footprint
(do you have fans going vertical to force air to circulate up and down.. (itl mix all the air.. and that should make a difference) Get one of those 10" desk fans and point it straight up and another pc fan at the hood to force that heat out to the main fan to go up and back down
if you have to cut a hole is it to an atic or where to..

 

[chimei]

I am very happy with my 400 Watt philips CMH so far.

This was my first flower cycle with the bulb, this is at 55 days flowering. I figure I have another 10-15 days on this one, so it should really get fat.

First experience with a plant showing blue also, not sure if it has anything to do with using the CMH, prob my temps.

No more switching bulbs for me!

I already tossed my old MH bulbs and HPS bulbs.

 

[OsWiZzLe]

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/lights/msg1221433725413.html?75

 

[simba]

a lil bushy at the base but other than that.. lovely ever so lovely..
Nice Multi site Girl

i really hate recommending trimming late into flower but you should cut that lower left leaf off its doing nothing but blocking light at this point in its distress..

go pull them back out the rubbish bin if there not Dead Dead.. a spare is never bad idea.. my backup backup lamp is a HPS (well not really but its there collecting dust)

as far as life light they have cheap Chinese copies (dangerous and not to philips spec) and infringes on Philips patent pending Technology
there others are re branded Philips CMH we recommending here but not at High ass prices..
they are a dist selling a either crap copy or re branded philips cmh lamp not a mfr of great tech.. thieves in my opinion.. cant even be honest and say its philips retro white commercial lamp..(see what i mean when it hits special market Price gets jacked up and they dont say what the bulb really is.. well until you look at the actual lamp not the box (on the rebranded ones)
who you gonna buy from someone Outright lying to you about who even makes it and then the price.. (they even screwing stores) or honest folks.. out for the greater good..
(im off life light cmh now)

but ya long post nice read ill be reading tonight.

initialy i like this part
"(Lermer) Good color rendering isn't just for human vision. It is also good for plant growth. "lumens" is basically what the human eye sees, and that is biased toward the central part of the spectrum. A rough measure of photosynthetically active radiation (PAR) is to consider both lumens and CRI.""

and if you look into that the middle of the spectrum isnt what the plant really wants.. it wants the two sides for efficient growth/flower/LIFE
and that also shows why we dont like par as its again for the EYES not plants
ya cri we want a 90-96 id say any higher and we get infared and uv a and b and c and we dont want a and c at all or even infared

 

[Guest]

I see your point Simba

So a CMH will work on conventional HPS ballast, but not on a digi ballst correct?

I'm currently running a 250W hps for flowering, and a CMH bulb might be worth the $50 or so to try it out

Hmmm

 

[Guest]

Funny to look at the garden web thread as I can't say how but, I know Lermer personally. I have not seen him in a year or so and he does not know what I grow! Assuming that it is not someone else with the same name of course. He is a huge proponent of the CMH and was published in maximum yield a couple of years ago. He asked me to read and evaluate his article on lighting prior to it being published. I had gone to his Hydro-Shop and asked if he had seen this new bulb that I had discovered and low and be-hold he was selling it. At a good mark-up I might add. He is very close with the engineer at LifeLight Tech.

I will try to find his article later and post it (a link to it) if I can.

Let it be sufficient to say that he has been growing (legal stuff to my knowledge) in his shop under the CMH that is unreal. One Thai pepper plant ran for more than a year and produced over a thousand "hot and flavourful as hell peppers".

 

[Guest]

http://www.hydro-techn.com/

Her ya go!

 

[Guest]

There is a lot of good info on his site. The digi ballast for the CMH is a GE or knock off of such. Designed specifically for the CMH bulbs. His hoods and ballast assemblies have a "home made" look to them I will admit. However, the design and quality of build is excellent. I have watched them make them in the shop. They are given much thought and the reflective aluminum is of the highest quality. From Germany I believe.

This guy is of the highest intelligence level and a honest bussiness man. I do not live in Seattle any more and regret not having him for supply and discussion.

 

[MostHigh]

Thanks Aze...good to see a spatter of validation in my choosing to swap out HPS lamps for the Philips 400CMH and Ventures 400PSMH 950 series.

 

[Guest]

http://jandslighting.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=50_346_333&products_id=3150

Check out the link to the GE catalog pdf for these ballasts.

 

[SB7]

Good reading in that thread at "gardenweb". hate to say that I agree with most of what "shrub" said in his reply to "lermer"
Transparent glass will absorb at most 2% and I can't see how that translates into the glass generating alot of heat ???
Transparent glass like that used with most hoods ( sunlight supply for example) will reflect 4-5% at both boundary layers ( air|(1) glass|(2)air) for a total (including absorption)of roughly 10% loss in transmittance. ( worst case) How that could become 30% is beyond me.

But I digress.

I've looked "high" and low and can't find any graphs regarding the lumen loss for the philips CDM bulbs. All we can say is that at 40% of it's rated life it will produce 85% of it's initial lumens . In my case ( CDM400S51 HOR) that would be roughly 29000 lumens at 6000 hours. The vert version has a longer life span so 40% of it's life span is 8000 hours and that's why it's mean lumens are only 27000.

I don't see this as being nearly as bad as it's being made out to be.
500 days at 12/12 and the bulb would still be producing 85% of it's initial lumens !

Seems pretty good to me. I'd be swapping them out after 2 grows anyway as at 45$ each cheap.

MVHO.

 

[Guest]

I read the entire thread. I think shrub is a crack smoker so full of attitude and argumentative tendancies that he was unable to understand the simple things. Lermer was not accurate in regards to the actual frequency of the light output of the sun, but shrub got so locked in on the actual # that he could not grasp the cocept. A concept not new to me or others in the world of physics. The argument against the inverse square law is laughable. What Lermer was stating in regards to light intensity at varying distances is true and correct. I and many others have tested it. To argue that Flouros can compete with CMH, HPS or halides is hillarious and shows those fools for just that. Keeping in mind that you can get the same results with Flouros, just with many more watts/sqft and many more bulbs.

Truthfully, a lot of that thread was just sacastic crap from the others. I have met "Lermer", seen his grows and tried many of his techniques outside of the lighting. Such as the 10k bulb and 20hrs of light the last two weeks to augment resin and flavour, and they work. The rest of those fools would probably argue anything and are most likely bent because Lermer has been published on horticultural lighting in a reputable fashion and works with a man named Gerald who understands more about quantum physics and lighting than I could ever hope to. I spent one and a half hours on the phone with Gerald one day at Lermer's request as I initially had questions. All I can say is WOW. Gerald did state that if temps are a major issue the cmh does so well with UV and far blue (red as well) glass would cut it but, still leave you way ahead of the classic bulbs.

Anyway, I got a good kick out of that thread and have enough past experience with all of the bulb types in question that I have proven to myself what works best. That is all that matters really. Yes, I believe that 2 x 400w cmh can easily outperform a 1000w hps, and yes I believe that resin production and plant health are greatly improved under full spectrum. I also believe that great things can be done with lots and lots and lots of quality flouros, but any one that argues that the flouros can compete in a side by side (same conditions ie, area, plant height, temps, genetics and consumed wattage) is a nut case that need not argue with someone like Lermer.

You may notice from the Hydro-Techn site that Lermer still uses HPS bulbs for some applications. Like peppers and such. Do you think he recomends the 10k bulb and 20hrs of light in the last two weeks because lots of people need hotter peppers?LOL

One thought that comes from the realm of quantum physics:

Dark is to light as a vaccum is to water. Introduce water (as a liquid) in to a vaccum chamber and the molecules will spread to fill every little area possible. If there is not a suitable quantity of water to fill the entire area as a liquid the water molecules will vaporize to fill the area. Thus, the density of the water will be much less than it was at point of origin or when it was a liquid.

Now: Introduce light in a dark area and the photons will travel in to the dark and as they spread and move to the dark from the source the light intensity will depreciate as they spread out from the source. Light density is critical and it is highest at or nearest to the source.

 

[Guest]

The glass and heat thing is great. Lermer has a point when he states that different wl move through glass differently. His prism argument does well to provide a basic understanding of the effects glass has on light. No glass is so perfect on a molecular level that it does not refract and reflect light. Why **** up such a nice spectrum? I used glass for a while. Lermer kept telling me that if I needed glass I had too much wattage for the space or not enough air flow. He was right. I increased air flow and dropped my ambient, Bingo, problem solved. So many people get caught up in pumping "watts" that they yield less (and crappier) buds with a 600w or 1000w hps/halide than they would with a full spectrum 400w cmh that would allow optimum temps and higher actual light intensity due to closer bulb location.

 

[OsWiZzLe]

reading this thread made me go out and buy (2) Dual 800 Watt Ballast and I'm one day in with the Philips CMH on the HPS setting....plants are digging the light....I removed the glass from the super sun 2 reflector and even turned off my fan...Cali is getting cold lol...but I'm loving this so far....what type of MH 400watt would you guys recommend I get that puts off some useful light?

 

[simba]

da nap ya simple magnetic hps ballast will fire cmh (for the retro White's)
no electronic (unless 20-150 and spec'ed cmh) or the ge ultramax

the GE one aint bad but Hefty price tag.. (but it does multi watt so you can be more efficient as when they babies just use a 250 CMH and then go up as they grow) i been playing with one for a bit.. (trying to fry it)
and the only main downside is its 220 volt not 120.. so its more for Commercial opss..or someone comfy dropping 220 to there single lamp
if the price where less $$ id promote it hard.as it does extend life, increses lumen Maint, and is energy efficient (unlike the horti ones that fib a bit). (i should really look into that)



as far as MH lamp 400 W the 952 series is being tested by most high..and then using CMH for flower.
i just stay with cmh..the price vs results i dont think is worth it for the Hobby grower.. for commercial maybe.. well find out soon..

 

[SB7]

I have to say that I love this thread and that it's hopefully getting folks to think about what they believe to be true. Constantly re-evaluating ones beliefs is essential in todays world.

I need glass on my hood as it's an integral part of the cooling/odour reduction system for my cab. The down side is UV abortion. Having said that, I have now completed three grows with the CMH and there's no comparison between it and my previous HPS or AgroSun grows. CMH wins hands down. To quote " that's all that really matters "
The HPS may look better on paper, but we aren't growing paper

I encourage everyone who reads this thread to setup a CMH grow and see for yourself.
an unsolicited plug: I highly recommend Advancedtechlighting . They have the best prices I've been able to get are quick to reply to any questions.

As for lumen maintenance, I did find a graph on Advancedtechlighting and it shows roughly 70% to 80% output at full life ( 15000 hours) although I've been unable to find the same graph on Philips web site.


HappyNew Year

 

[Guest]

SB7 -

I hope that I didn't sound agressive in response to your previous post. I feel edgy right now as I have not been able to puff for almost two weeks! For the first time in my life I have a pre-employment ua coming up. Normally I would tell a prospective employer to go and F- themselves. This job however would eliminate all of the travel I have had to endure for the last 18months. 3 1/2days/week sometimes 4 has made growing and tending to family tough to say the least. I am even going to take a pay cut (small one).

I am glad to see you are happy with the bulbs. I just lost a 400w vertical that I had been burning Horiz for 18mos. Just a stoner mistake I think. I have two boxes of bulbs in the garage and can not fint the third that should have my two other 400w Horiz. I must have put the vert in and not payed any attention. So for the moment I have one 400w horiz CMH and one 400w HortiCrap in there. I will need to dig a little more I guess. I will probably just buy two new 400w horiz cmh this week and fly them home with me.

Any rate, best of luck to all.