CANNABIS DNA PROJECT

[Sam_Skunkman]

This is the big problem. Someone gets something for nothing. Patents, Breeder's rights, IP etc. Information gleaned from this project goes directly into a small group of peoples hands for the possibility of long-term future profiteering.

WTF??? Big problem??? I get no patents, breeders rights. IP etc. Information gleaned will be shared, and no plants grown or regenerated, if they even can be I will not do it.

Now some may say these people are legends of Cannabis game and they deserve this because of all the hardwork they put in already. Yes they have done a lot for Cannabis today and we have to thank them for that. But do they deserve the possibility of monopolizing the industry for future generations? I think not.

Wow am I that powerful or are you just that unjustifiably fearful? Monopolizing the industry for generations, is a big statement, maybe just a bit overstated, maybe?

Furthermore as Tom Hill also mentions when you extract and store the DNA you have in your hands the genetic material of 1000s of plants to use how you see fit for further genetic analysis and even gene cloning (to make your own GM super cannabis) and for gene therapy via plasmid vectors etc. This is all readily doable with today's technology even if it may not have been done before.

So now I am going to make GMO's? Something I have been against all my life? I will not do that ever. Well first of all I have never even seen a dead seed or dead cells of Cannabis regenerated into living plants, have you? That and many seeds sent to me were just one or two dead seeds, they were extracted and sequenced, they do not exist anymore to be regenerated even if they could be which they can't as far as I know.

The questions still remains what exactly does the individual get for sending in his/her genetic material? Does one even get an individual report of the results of the sequencing analysis for each sample submitted?

It is funny the the loudest voices are the same ones that do not ever send anything in to help the project, they claim to see "dangers", want to know what "they" will be getting in return, even though I have said we will share all the data on a WWW site as soon as I can. But I can agree you will not get anything back if you never help the project or send in a single dead seed, like you have done so far.

When are the results these results coming out btw?

As soon as I have them they will be posted.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Sam,

Are you sending leaf and or seed to Phylos Bioscience or are you doing your own DNA work?

I collect the materials, have the materials DNA extracted, and send the DNA to Phylos for sequencing.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Phylos covered all the costs for folks submitting around the western US. I was quoted $40 a run for GBS (genotyping by sequencing) from Oregon State University.

Sam: do you know if these samples will be placed in the NIH Sequence Read Archive like others have done?

As far as I know yes.
-SamS

 

[SpaceBros.]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

Well first of all I have never even seen a dead seed or dead cells of Cannabis regenerated into living plants, have you? That and many seeds sent to me were just one or two dead seeds, they were extracted and sequenced, they do not exist anymore to be regenerated even if they could be which they can't as far as I know.

I think your missing the point or being deliberately naive. One extracts the DNA. It gets stored for eternity. It gets sequenced and analyzed. Novel genes are discovered. The novel genes get "cloned" (and usually patented) and stored in a DNA library. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Unfortunately this is the basic blueprint for the majority of genetic "research". [/FONT] Since the genes encode the functional products of the plant you have the capability of reproducing any desirable traits in another plant (via plasmid vector) bypassing the need to regenerate via cellular proliferation.

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As soon as I have them they will be posted.
-SamS

No need to get so defensive. It just makes people more suspicious. I was just trying to explain to people the potential you have in your hands who might not realize it. Sorry to suggest or imply that you may do such dishonorable things as I previously mentioned. Unfortunately I don't know you personally and can't speak of your character either way. I also see no point in personally sending in seeds as unfortunately I only have access to seed-bank seeds or bag-seed of unknown origin. I'm really interested in your project however and wish you the best of luck with your sequencing and subsequent data analysis. I'd also like to know what's the current working hypothesis you have for the evolution of Cannabis and how it spread through-out the world.
-SB

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I am working on this project with Robert Clarke, he is collecting from herbariums and national seed banks, me from traditional landrace centers or people that have them. We will not nor will Phylos be cloning novel genes, no GMO work of any kind, like you fear. No Cannabis patents based on this projects DNA work.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

I think your missing the point or being deliberately naive. One extracts the DNA. It gets stored for eternity. It gets sequenced and analyzed. Novel genes are discovered. The novel genes get "cloned" (and usually patented) and stored in a DNA library. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Unfortunately this is the basic blueprint for the majority of genetic "research". [/FONT] Since the genes encode the functional products of the plant you have the capability of reproducing any desirable traits in another plant (via plasmid vector) bypassing the need to regenerate via cellular proliferation.

Do you know of any DNA cannabis library? How many accessions does it contain? Has any novel Cannabis genes been patented in this way?

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No need to get so defensive. It just makes people more suspicious. I was just trying to explain to people the potential you have in your hands who might not realize it. Sorry to suggest or imply that you may do such dishonorable things as I previously mentioned.

Yes you do not know know me or would understand how I feel about GMO Cannabis and why I would not be involved.

Unfortunately I don't know you personally and can't speak of your character either way. I also see no point in personally sending in seeds as unfortunately I only have access to seed-bank seeds or bag-seed of unknown origin. I'm really interested in your project however and wish you the best of luck with your sequencing and subsequent data analysis. I'd also like to know what's the current working hypothesis you have for the evolution of Cannabis and how it spread through-out the world.
-SB

If you read Rob Clarke's recent book Cannabis Evolution and Ethnobotany you will see pretty much how I feel as Rob and I are in agreement as to what he says, we discussed it many many times over the last 17 years he has worked with Mark Merlin on the book.
This is based on my friend Karl Hillig's work which I funded at Indiana University.
-SamS

Genetic Evidence for Speciation in Cannabis (Cannabaceae)

A Combined Analysis of Agronomic Traits and Allozyme Allele Frequencies for 69 Cannabis Accessions

A chemotaxonomic analysis of terpenoid variation in Cannabis

A Chemotaxonomic Analysis of Cannabinoid Variation in Cannabis (Cannabaceae)

A Multivariate Analysis of Allozyme Variation in 93 Cannabis Accessions from the VIR Germplasm Collection

A Combined Analysis of Agronomic Traits and Allozyme Allele Frequencies for 69 Cannabis Accessions

 

[SpaceBros.]

I am working on this project with Robert Clarke, he is collecting from herbariums and national seed banks, me from traditional landrace centers or people that have them. We will not nor will Phylos be cloning novel genes, no GMO work of any kind, like you fear. No Cannabis patents based on this projects DNA work.




If you read Rob Clarke's recent book Cannabis Evolution and Ethnobotany you will see pretty much how I feel as Rob and I are in agreement as to what he says, we discussed it many many times over the last 17 years he has worked with Mark Merlin on the book.
This is based on my friend Karl Hillig's work which I funded at Indiana University.
-SamS

Genetic Evidence for Speciation in Cannabis (Cannabaceae)

A Combined Analysis of Agronomic Traits and Allozyme Allele Frequencies for 69 Cannabis Accessions

A chemotaxonomic analysis of terpenoid variation in Cannabis

A Chemotaxonomic Analysis of Cannabinoid Variation in Cannabis (Cannabaceae)

A Multivariate Analysis of Allozyme Variation in 93 Cannabis Accessions from the VIR Germplasm Collection

A Combined Analysis of Agronomic Traits and Allozyme Allele Frequencies for 69 Cannabis Accessions

Thank-you for re-assuring me Sam and good luck with the project! It's seems like I still have a lot of Journal reading to catch up on. Sorry for sounding alarmist in previous posts.
-SB

 

[SpaceBros.]

The level of cluelessness and baseless fear about this project is pretty amazing to me. The endless nonsense about patents and losing breeder's rights is downright laughable.

Would it be too much to ask that folks like Spacebros. take like 5 minutes to actually educate themselves about what Phylos is attempting to do before commenting here and challenging those like Sam, who have already made it all crystal clear? READ THE THREAD. He's spending 90% of his time here repeating himself unnecessarily.

The level of clueless-ness about you and your post is pretty amazing to me. Maybe if you took the time to spend the three years at a Tertiary education institution and obtain a degree in Molecular Genetics you'd understand the potential SS and RCC have in their hands.

Patent law has ruined the world we live in today. Greedy individuals and corporations continue to bleed to working class dry on the backs of patents for generations and perpetuate a poverty cycle for many. I am wholly against anyone having any patents for anything at all and that includes breeder's rights.

Yes I did read the opening post and most of the thread. If your so naive to believe that everyone does everything they say they are going to do and that people don't lie or deceive others when it suits them or they have something to gain I'm not going to waste my time talking to you ...

 

[Londinium]

That is honestly the best news I have heard this century.....Thanks Tom

 

[Tom Hill]

Also I think maybe I like seeds and male Cannabis plants better then you do Tom?
I have thousands of seeds I collected before there were any clones being made or preserved. Many many hybrid seeds I made that I have kept under refrigeration 4-5C and they still germinate fine 25+ years later, if I would have froze them they would have last much longer then me.
Now who has clones that are 30 years old, much less older? Who has thousands of clones they have kept alive for even just 20 years? Few can keep a thousand clones alive much less maintain 1000 for many years. Seeds are easier and better for that.
But you do not maintain the single clone selected from hundreds or thousands, that is for sure. I see the value of both seeds and clones and males also. It all started with seeds and production is heading for Sinsemilla clones. Known clones that are produced for growers that will grow them grow under identical condition greenhouses, or in a given area outdoors, they will be pretty similar just varying a little year by year like a wine vintage does because of weather.
I never had more then 300+ clones I maintained, around 100 today + some males. I did have tons of seeds and still do today. Seeds are easier to keep long periods if they can be used to do the job, you can fit several million in a fridge or even more in a chest freezer just keep an alarm that will contact you on the electricity + cold box.
I am sure when legal 100% then clones will be just as easy to keep maintained, we are almost there with laws, but not quite yet. When legal and you can freeze them, and bring them back and grow them, then frozen callus tissue will be the best back up library, a small freezer or freezers, could hold thousands of samples for longer then any of us will live.
-SamS

I talk a bunch of crap Sam but in reality i feel the same as you about all this nobody ever came up with a better package than a seed. but can't but feeling sometimes like a boat tugging at the docklines let's go let's go.

 

[Tom Hill]

a better package than 100 seed i mean

 

[SpaceBros.]

Interesting. Hey, I don't know everything. Maybe I need to be enlightened here.

So then why advocate for Sam and act like you are some kind of authority of the subject matter?

Please explain 'the potential' in some detail? What specifically could Sam and Phylos do with this DNA without live tissue? Don't dumb it down for me; be specific and technical I'll google for more information. Let's get all of the specifics down for everyone to refer back to.

I already mentioned in my previous posts the possible potential of the project. I'll repeat it again so it's clear. The project will yield 1000's of DNA samples from a wide variety of land-race seed lots. These samples can be stored for eternity and can have total genome sequencing done on every sample which will allow researchers to identify novel gene variants which can be patented.

Who is issuing patents for unmodified cannabis cultivars? Or seeds?

This is not my area of expertise admittedly but I believe the US patent office is considering a patent application on Otto II and possibly Russia and Israel already have patents for cultivars. Strains names have already been trademarked and patented. GW Pharma have a CBC rich cultivar patent pending too.

This admittedly sounds a bit hyperbolish to me, but again, I'm open to being corrected. Can you elaborate a bit more how this project will in any way result in that? How will this specifically affect the average cannabis breeder, smoker and ICMag member?

It's not about this project per se it's more about the storage of the genetic material obtained from this project for future yet to be decided projects. I also wanted to let people know that what they are sending in has the potential to be very valuable even if they do not yet realize it. For example one might be willing to pay good money for SMCG seeds from the 70's even if they don't germ. You just gotta know where to ask.

Can you maybe explain how patents of other people's or companies' cannabis will ruin the current rights of breeders/collectors like myself?

I was more talking about patents in general and that there's no good reason to have them except to line the pockets of already wealthy individuals and corporations. Myriad Genetics patents on the BRCA1 and 2 genes are a good example of this. In the Cannabis world maybe you might want to take your strain to market one day but you can't because your strain expresses the novel gene variant that is already patented by a biotech company.

Or how patents will somehow affect the current massive catalog of already-existing cannabis strains and hybrids that have already been advertised and/or marketed at dispensaries and clubs everywhere?

It's more plant breeder's rights pertaining to Cannabis that would affect the number of Breeder's and Cannabis strains on the market. Furthermore most modern Cannabis strains on the market have a relatively similar chemotype and terpenoid profile, have limited genetic variation and share Skunk, Haze, NL and Afghan ancestry. Who's to say that of the 1000+ strains on the market today only 30 or so are unique enough to be considered as separate cultivars?

You can't patent anything that has been either. You know that, right?

That's not true. Haven't you ever heard of bio-piracy?

You've read patent law as it relates to plant cultivars? It's crystal clear.

No, I haven't. I doubt you have either I think you're getting confused between patent law and plant breeder's rights. Nothing is ever as clear as it seems unfortunately. Who's to say who was the first to breed a particular cultivar. Lawyers and corporations with deep pockets can always argue until they get their way.

And you can't patent a plant cultivar without being able to first propagate it repeatedly, which you can't do without live plant material

But you can patent a single gene from a cultivar. Or 1000 genes from that same cultivar ... It's likely already possible to produce a cell line and propagate just from DNA alone. It's very easy to "splice" genes into an existing line to make a unique and patent-able GMO cultivar.

... so as far as I currently see it, 'they' would have to create an entirely new plant version with DNA from these samples and patent that. Right?

Wrong again. You just can't catch a break now can you.

How does that relate to my own breeding projects, strains and the entire commercial market at this point - and the entire seed industry for that matter? I'm really fuzzy on all of that. This is all so confusing.

It's not affecting the industry now because of the legalization status of Cannabis. It's only going to come into effect once legalization takes place and we see Cannabis patents and breeder's rights applications granted en masse. No need to be so sarcastic and patronizing. It just makes you look like an even bigger douche than you already are.

 

[biologic]

That was just hilarious.

 

[Buckowens]

SpaceBris ftw!!!!

 

[TerpeneDream]

who ffing cares? That has nothing whatsoever to do with current strains. Nothing. What's your point? You are losing the plot.

Clearly you have no foresight. You don't want to work fresh new lines in the future?! You'd like all the worlds genetics bogarted by companies and patents?! I think that's where the corporate/pharmaceutical types would like, and are trying very hard, to see it head. Maybe this specific DNA project isn't directly correlated with that movement, but, it's most likely along similar lines. People don't invest, work, and test.…for no gain at all.

 

[HazeOil]

Hi sam

I was wondering whos putn out all the money for this DNA project sam?

DNA work sounds lik a lota money ,if already answered sorry for the interruption.

 

[Adze]

I think the DNA project is more likely to establish that certain genetics were in the public domain and have physical proof of it, thereby making more difficult for anyone to patent.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

People do invest, work, and test for no gain at all. Like when I gave a grant to support Karl Hilligs work, I gained nothing from the work other then the knowledge I was furthering the science of Cannabis. That is what I hope to gain from this Phylos work also. I want to understand Cannabis relationships, evolution, and create a Cannabis family tree.
It is easy for you to make sweeping generalizations but they are not true about me, or everyone I know.
-SamS

A Chemotaxonomic Analysis of Cannabinoid Variation in Cannabis (Cannabaceae)
Karl Hillig
Paul G Mahlberg
Department of Biology, Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana 47405 USA.
American Journal of Botany 06/2004; 91(6):966-75. DOI: 10.3732/ajb.91.6.966

A chemotaxonomic analysis of terpenoid variation in Cannabis
Karl Hillig
Department of Biology, Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405, USA
Biochemical Systematics and Ecology (Impact Factor: 1.17). 10/2004; 32(10):875-891. DOI: 10.1016/j.bse.2004.04.004


Genetic Evidence for Speciation in Cannabis (Cannabaceae)
Karl Hillig
Department of Biology Indiana University Bloomington IN USA
Genetic Resources and Crop Evolution . 01/2005; 52(2):161-180. DOI: 10.1007/s10722-003-4452-y


A Combined Analysis of Agronomic Traits and Allozyme Allele Frequencies for 69 Cannabis Accessions
Karl Hillig
Journal of Industrial Hemp 06/2005; 10:17-30. DOI: 10.1300/J237v10n01_03

Clearly you have no foresight. You don't want to work fresh new lines in the future?! You'd like all the worlds genetics bogarted by companies and patents?! I think that's where the corporate/pharmaceutical types would like, and are trying very hard, to see it head. Maybe this specific DNA project isn't directly correlated with that movement, but, it's most likely along similar lines. People don't invest, work, and test.…for no gain at all.

 

[Tom Hill]

people who know you,,, know that is a drop in the bucket in comparison with the whole picture sir.. people who know.

 

[Roms]

@Sams ; High wonder if your canna-team explore Tom's gear? Particulary the XVIII i think who is probably the oldest modern "indica" (kafiristanica origin?). Respect Mr Hill!
And compare the results with the best landraces from equator Asians and tropical South Africans...

So has the cannabis survived the last major glacial period?

Equator or Hindu kush origin?
From or to the top of the mountain?

 

[Limeygreen]

If I had to guess it would more information available to people to help aid in selections, or genetic markers, this being done more work on dna can be done and quicker, more acturate breeding can be done to get different attributes of the strain you want. This would speed breeding up substansitally and take out the need ofr needing hundreds of thousands of test plants. Just my guess anyways, should be better for us all if this happens.