Canna Boost V Molasses - side by side comparison.

[dongle69]

Molasses contributes to yield because of the carb and potassium boost.

 

[Texicannibus]

Dongle I may be wrong but my understanding was the carbs in it helped microbes break down organics and what not in the soil and make it easier for absorbtion. So this might only apply to organic soil if Im even accurate.

Hazylady I havent grown any strain twice yet so I really dont have any comparisons as well as my grow conditions are ever evolving atm. Hopefully I find a worthy mother I can do more experimentation on.

 

[Hazy Lady]

This subject is sticking around

This subject is sticking around

as you can see in the picture you posted above, in the brown sugar a lot of molasses is filtered out. its going to have higher sugar to mineral content.

it seems to me the most of the natural ingredients are in the completely unprocessed. panela is not processed in any way panela is very hard and does not melt in water it needs to get boiled down. takes about 3-4minutes to disolve in boiling water

im not saying panela is better or anything such - im only saying its the less processed form of "sugar".

and its tasty too it has a caramel like flavour from the burnt sugars its great on icecream or in lemonade hehe and why not - in a mojito also

peace

Thanks for the prompt reply my friend, I am trying to get this straight, the process in my pic, yes it does say 'juice is removed' but only to clarify it to remove insoluble particles, the company make a big point of saying how it is "the ultimate unrefined sugar" they say "Not all brown sugars are the same: many are only brown on the outside; underneath they are really refined white sugar which has been coated to add colour and some flavour.

Billington’s sugars are different. They are unrefined so the sugars are very simply produced with the aim of locking in, rather than refining out the natural molasses of the sugar cane. It is this difference that gives unrefined sugar its superior flavour and natural colour".

I need to look on the site to get the nutritional blurb, I went and got my box but it doesn't say on it, I feel sure I have read it somewhere but you know me!
Bones, heres a pic of my stuff, looks full of goodness

 

[bonecarver_OG]

seems to be a good alternative to mollases

 

[Hazy Lady]

Dongle and Tex Hi fellas, you are both right to some extent, that is the beauty of Molasses it has many uses, as for what 'carbs' actually do?, as you are both aware carbohydrates are anything that can be broken down into a simple sugar and used as energy, it is the same in a plant or a human but in the case of our plant this energy will be used for cell division - growth, as long as the other building blocks are in place, the nutrients, that is!. It seems it does feed efficient microbes that in turn feed the plant, great for organic grows, this is not really much use to me as my medium has no nutrients locked in as soil has but it is still very useful for Hydro growers as we discussed. thanks guy's, no worries Tex, you'll be in a position to soon enough nice to see you back dongle

 

[Hazy Lady]

seems to be a good alternative to mollases

You are so fast man!.
I think so, I will have just put a load of Haze clones into bloom and I have 5 pots of them, there are 17 in those 5 pots bit ridiculous I know but these things are so skinny, I tried a few in one pot and had no problems so went a bit crazy, anyhooo, I will use treacle on a couple and the sugar on a couple and maybe the spare can be the control, obviously 17 into 5 means they have various amounts in each pot 2's,3's and 4's but i'll find similar amounts to go head to head, I don't know why but I feel the sugar will be more soluble, as all the insolubles are still in the Molasses treacle, but out of the sugar, we will see as I may have said once or twice

 

[dongle69]

Dongle I may be wrong but my understanding was the carbs in it helped microbes break down organics and what not in the soil and make it easier for absorbtion.

Carbs are a food source for microbes.
Carbs can also be absorbed directly, even in a sterile system with no microbes.
That is why molasses can still be used in a hydroponic environment (sterile).
Although in hydro, the dose of molasses is about 2-5 ml/gal vs 15 ml/gal in soil.
The extra k (potassium) in organic molasses can make one think there is some magic going on, but really it is just a slower, more expensive version of a potassium boost that you get from chem nutrients.
Potassium helps plants to build proteins and sugar, and helps with the absorption of other nutrients, among other things.
A balanced diet is most important and improper use of molasses can throw the balance off, leading new growers to think there is a deficiency of some nutrient, when in actuality there is an overdose of another.

​

 

[Texicannibus]

Thanks for clarification I was reading your previous post as if that was the only benefits to molasses and increased yields. I can sometimes read more into what someone says than they say hehe. Totally agree with previous points just wanted to add the microbial benefit.

 

[Hazy Lady]

Thanks dongle

Thanks dongle

Carbs are a food source for microbes.
Carbs can also be absorbed directly, even in a sterile system with no microbes.
That is why molasses can still be used in a hydroponic environment (sterile).
Although in hydro, the dose of molasses is about 2-5 ml/gal vs 15 ml/gal in soil.
The extra k (potassium) in organic molasses can make one think there is some magic going on, but really it is just a slower, more expensive version of a potassium boost that you get from chem nutrients.
Potassium helps plants to build proteins and sugar, and helps with the absorption of other nutrients, among other things.
A balanced diet is most important and improper use of molasses can throw the balance off, leading new growers to think there is a deficiency of some nutrient, when in actuality there is an overdose of another.

​

Thanks for posting that dongle, so you think less is best in hydro, interesting, I am still not certain, I will home in on the amounts as soon as I have chance.

 

[dongle69]

What will be tougher for you to figure out is how much is being wasted, since only part of it is used by the plants because you have no microbes.

 

[Proteus]

i've been using budXL from H&G, im assuming it's a boost like bloom enhancer since H&G was modeled in the likeness of canna.

can't say that i notice any differences with or without.

 

[dongle69]

BudXL is just an enzyme.

 

[*mistress*]

any gardener should be able to find the exact amount of potassium, calcium, iron, & any other element/compound that is in their molasses...

whether they select to use teaspoon or tablespoon, can find #'s for ~ppms...

a lot more info on 'nutrition facts' requirements...
http://www.netrition.com/rdi_page.html:

Reference Values for Nutrition Labeling

(Based on a 2000 Calorie Intake; for Adults and Children 4 or More Years of Age)

Nutrient Unit of Measure Daily Values
Total Fat grams (g) 65
Saturated fatty acids grams (g) 20
Cholesterol milligrams (mg) 300
Sodium milligrams (mg) 2400
Potassium milligrams (mg) 3500
Total carbohydrate grams (g) 300
Fiber grams (g) 25
Protein grams (g) 50

Nutrient Unit of Measure Daily Values
Vitamin A International Unit (IU) 5000
Vitamin C milligrams (mg) 60
Calcium milligrams (mg) 1000
Iron milligrams (mg) 18
Vitamin D International Unit (IU) 400
Vitamin E International Unit (IU) 30
Vitamin K micrograms (µg) 80
Thiamin milligrams (mg) 1.5
Riboflavin milligrams (mg) 1.7
Niacin milligrams (mg) 20
Vitamin B6 milligrams (mg) 2.0
Folate micrograms (µg) 400
Vitamin B12 micrograms (µg) 6.0
Biotin micrograms (µg) 300
Pantothenic acid milligrams (mg) 10
Phosphorus milligrams (mg) 1000
Iodine micrograms (µg) 150
Magnesium milligrams (mg) 400
Zinc milligrams (mg) 15
Selenium micrograms (µg) 70
Copper milligrams (mg) 2.0
Manganese milligrams (mg) 2.0
Chromium micrograms (µg) 120
Molybdenum micrograms (µg) 75
Chloride milligrams (mg) 3400

REV. Jan 30, 1998

Nutrients in this table are listed in the order in which they are required to appear on a label in accordance with 101.9(c)

This list includes only those nutrients for which a Daily Reference Value (DRV) has been established in 101.9(c)(9) or a Reference Daily Intake (RDI) in in 101.9(c)(8)(iv).

so, for example, should be able to find ppms of potassium added by adding 1 tablespoon of a given molasses, or any other food product w/ adequate nutrition information labeling.

using wholesome sweeteners as an example, & calculating for potassium & magnesium, we have,

wholesome sweeteners organic molasses. ingredients: blackstrap molasses

potassium 730mg - 20% daily value

magnesium 8% daily value

first, we confirm the labels by referring to the daily values chart.

daily intake for potassium are recommended @ 3500mg per day. dividing this by 20%, or .2, we get

.2*3500=700mg

so, 730mg is approximately(~) 20% of the daily intake recommended for potassium, on a 2,000 calorie diet...

next, we will find out how to calculate this amount of molasses dissolved into 1 gallon of water. it must be noted that wholesome sweeteners states a tablespoon is 22g. however, a tablespoon is generally ~15g, or 1/2 (half) ounce. it can be that the weight of their product in a tablespoon is greater than the generic 15g of water...

magnesium states 8% of daily values... @ 400mg per day*.08, we have 32mg of magnesium per tablespoon. theoretically, this is equal to 32 ppm per liter, as 1 ppm = 1mg/liter... however, when we input the molecular weights of the elements used, we may get different #'s...

left @ 32 ppm/liter, we could conclude that 32/3.785 equals 8.45 ppm per gal of magnesium...

we can check our work by converting millimoles to ppms...

The difference is that ppm is a measure of mass (e.g. 1 ppm = 1 milligram/litre) and moles measure amounts.

1 mg/liter of Mg / 24 mg/millimole = 0.041 millimoles of Mg in one liter. 0.041*32=1.312 millimoles per liter.

* To convert millimoles to ppm:

ppm = millimoles/litre x molecular weight (mg/millimole)

thus, we have 1.312 millimoles per liter*molecular weight of magnesium (24.312)... or,

1.312*24.312=31.89 total millimoles per liter of water...

31.89 millimoles/3.785=8.425...

thus, we will add 8.425 ppms of magnesium by adding 1 tablespoon of wholesome sweeteners molasses to 1 gallon of water.

we do not know if potassium is stated as as elemental or oxide. if stated as oxide, we will further reduce by 43% to find the elemental form. for now, we can just get the fundamental #'s...

1mg/liter potassium is 1/39.102=0.025 millimoles per liter. 730mg potassium/39.102 (molecular weight of k)=18.66 millimoles per liter...

18.66 millimoles/liter*39.102 molecular weight=730 ppms per liter of solution.

730/3.785=192.86 ppms k per gal

if this is an oxide, that is not listed, we can further reduce by 43%, or .43, to get

.43*192.86=82.93 ppms

substantial range between the oxide form & elemental form of potassium, but @ least we can define the domain & range...

should be able to replicate these formulas w/ any foodstuff that has nutrition facts label... cross-reference daily values, do several formulas, check work, find range of ppms/millimoles...

this may also be helpful:
calculating npk/nutrient profile
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=134356

calculating effect of carbohydrates may be a little more involved & cover more area than just 'npk'... etc, may be harder to quantify...

a distinct difference between feed molasses & food grade molasses is the reporting of crude protein... in feed grade molasses, crude protein is reported as n*6.25...

should be evident that crude protein/6.25 will give n content. more to it than just have nitrogen immediately available, but shows how different industries report things differently. though may be same product, made in same factory, labeled differently for market, state, region ,etc, etc...

acquired feed molasses that has crude protein of 5.5%, thus, we can derive

5.5/6.25=0.88, or .88% nitrogen, rounded off to ~1% n...

this is close to the average amount of nitrogen reported for molasses, or, 1-0-5...

w/ the potassium being greatest. if viewed strictly from the avg npk of this (which was compiled by sampling corp logs of analysis, so the research says...), there seems no phosphorous available from molasses. but, there is phosphorus in there...

hope this helps...

enjoy your garden!

 

[Hazy Lady]

Very good point

Very good point

What will be tougher for you to figure out is how much is being wasted, since only part of it is used by the plants because you have no microbes.

That's funny, I was wondering why you figured less for Hydro and thought that might be in your reasoning, that does make sense dongle, I did post the other day I thought I needed to also learn how much is indeed too much?, this post reminds me it is important to find out such things, one of the reasons I started this was to find an economical as well as productive grow. thank's again dongle, really good point

 

[Hazy Lady]

Hello Proteus

Hello Proteus

i've been using budXL from H&G, im assuming it's a boost like bloom enhancer since H&G was modeled in the likeness of canna.

can't say that i notice any differences with or without.

Hello Proteus,, yes it is House and garden, I am not surprised you see no difference.
I see this at my hydro store, the guy who pushes it, when asked how it works say's "it makes the plant move its sugar reserves and it stores them in flowers and fruits!, so they are bigger", I asked him how, i think it must be hypnotism? he certainly can't explain it. Just forgetting hormone treatments, gibberillins, auxins etc, these things are not sold as nutrients or boosters, and in many cases not sold period! unless you broke a plant down and played around splicing genes and such you cannot get a plant to do something it is genetically pre-disposed to do. No magic juice from Borneo or anywhere else will have this miraculous sugar moving effect, I think if this was possible Mother Nature would have let the Bees in on it and the Bees in turn tell the plants where to store the good stuff, save them going flower to flower

 

[Hazy Lady]

Many Thanks

Many Thanks

any gardener should be able to find the exact amount of potassium, calcium, iron, & any other element/compound that is in their molasses...

whether they select to use teaspoon or tablespoon, can find #'s for ~ppms...

a lot more info on 'nutrition facts' requirements...
http://www.netrition.com/rdi_page.html:
so, for example, should be able to find ppms of potassium added by adding 1 tablespoon of a given molasses, or any other food product w/ adequate nutrition information labeling.

using wholesome sweeteners as an example, & calculating for potassium & magnesium, we have,

wholesome sweeteners organic molasses. ingredients: blackstrap molasses

potassium 730mg - 20% daily value

magnesium 8% daily value

first, we confirm the labels by referring to the daily values chart.

daily intake for potassium are recommended @ 3500mg per day. dividing this by 20%, or .2, we get

.2*3500=700mg

so, 730mg is approximately(~) 20% of the daily intake recommended for potassium, on a 2,000 calorie diet...

next, we will find out how to calculate this amount of molasses dissolved into 1 gallon of water. it must be noted that wholesome sweeteners states a tablespoon is 22g. however, a tablespoon is generally ~15g, or 1/2 (half) ounce. it can be that the weight of their product in a tablespoon is greater than the generic 15g of water...

magnesium states 8% of daily values... @ 400mg per day*.08, we have 32mg of magnesium per tablespoon. theoretically, this is equal to 32 ppm per liter, as 1 ppm = 1mg/liter... however, when we input the molecular weights of the elements used, we may get different #'s...

left @ 32 ppm/liter, we could conclude that 32/3.785 equals 8.45 ppm per gal of magnesium...

we can check our work by converting millimoles to ppms... 1 mg/liter of Mg / 24 mg/millimole = 0.041 millimoles of Mg in one liter. 0.041*32=1.312 millimoles per liter.

thus, we have 1.312 millimoles per liter*molecular weight of magnesium (24.312)... or,

1.312*24.312=31.89 total millimoles per liter of water...

31.89 millimoles/3.785=8.425...

thus, we will add 8.425 ppms of magnesium by adding 1 tablespoon of wholesome sweeteners molasses to 1 gallon of water.

we do not know if potassium is stated as as elemental or oxide. if stated as oxide, we will further reduce by 43% to find the elemental form. for now, we can just get the fundamental #'s...

1mg/liter potassium is 1/39.102=0.025 millimoles per liter. 730mg potassium/39.102 (molecular weight of k)=18.66 millimoles per liter...

18.66 millimoles/liter*39.102 molecular weight=730 ppms per liter of solution.

730/3.785=192.86 ppms k per gal

if this is an oxide, that is not listed, we can further reduce by 43%, or .43, to get

.43*192.86=82.93 ppms

substantial range between the oxide form & elemental form of potassium, but @ least we can define the domain & range...

should be able to replicate these formulas w/ any foodstuff that has nutrition facts label... cross-reference daily values, do several formulas, check work, find range of ppms/millimoles...

this may also be helpful:
calculating npk/nutrient profile
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=134356

calculating effect of carbohydrates may be a little more involved & cover more area than just 'npk'... etc, may be harder to quantify...

a distinct difference between feed molasses & food grade molasses is the reporting of crude protein... in feed grade molasses, crude protein is reported as n*6.25...

should be evident that crude protein/6.25 will give n content. more to it than just have nitrogen immediately available, but shows how different industries report things differently. though may be same product, made in same factory, labeled differently for market, state, region ,etc, etc...

acquired feed molasses that has crude protein of 5.5%, thus, we can derive

5.5/6.25=0.88, or .88% nitrogen, rounded off to ~1% n...

this is close to the average amount of nitrogen reported for molasses, or, 1-0-5...

w/ the potassium being greatest. if viewed strictly from the avg npk of this (which was compiled by sampling corp logs of analysis, so the research says...), there seems no phosphorous available from molasses. but, there is phosphorus in there...

hope this helps...

enjoy your garden!

Thank-you *mistress*, this will be handy.
Your examples are so welcome *m*, I have to say, I would get a little lost without your work to be honest. It has been like going back to school lately, and that's a lot of time travel .
I don't know how dumb this makes me?, I need to ask some friends, fellow countryfolk, but until your posts I never heard of a millimole, I thought for a minute it was from an 'imaginary' scale and was equal to a milliliter , thanks always *m*.

 

[Hazy Lady]

Day 49 Pics / Update

Day 49 Pics / Update

Day 49, 7 weeks down ? to go
Well there are noticeable differences appearing now between our groups, for the past week the plants have really responded to the higher doses of P and K etc, the flowers are pumping out lots of resin now, I am forever sniffing buds looking for changes/differences, I clean my spectacles with alcohol swabs because all the smears.
The other day I flicked alcohol in my eye pulling a swab out of the little pack, I rubbed myself without thought and ended up shoving resin in my eye off my fingers! my goodness that hurts! Cops want to use that instead of pepper spray, you can't wash it out of course!, bloody murder!
So the visible diff's, well if you recall?, at the end of week 6 I had the B's in 1st place, with the D's just ahead of the A's and C was bringing up the rear.
This order - based solely on looks at this point - has not changed, what has changed is the bud development. I noticed single calyx swelling on some buds and so started to check them daily, during the last week, the B - Boost plants and the D Boost & Molasses plants have exploded in comparison to the other 2, A & C. It is very easy to spot in the flesh and so I took lots of close-ups of the buds, you can see what I mean in the pics below, the two stragglers buds do not show up as well, they are not as developed and don't have as much detail to capture with the camera.

OK here are a couple of buds from B and D first.

Blown up you can see the A and C buds below, are not as far forward as the B and D's

Below, group A - Control plants @ 49 days 12/12.

Below, 'A' showing scars from the Ca deficit earlier on, plants back to full health now. Clipper lighter for scale, and making fire

Below, B - Boost Plants @ 49 days

 

[Hazy Lady]

Day 49 Pics / Update continued

Day 49 Pics / Update continued

Below, C - Molasses plants @ 49 days 12/12

Below, D - Boost AND Molasses plants @ 49 days 12/12.

 

[Strangely]

Very hard to tell from the pics, so your commentary is the best indicator for me so far. The (rather premature at this stage) question has to be 'is the increase looking worth the outlay (for Boost) currently?' Looks like somewhere around a 10% difference max at the mo which would probably indicate a pretty straight forward - No. Or is it less clear cut in the flesh?

 

[Hazy Lady]

How's it going then?

How's it going then?

Very hard to tell from the pics, so your commentary is the best indicator for me so far. The (rather premature at this stage) question has to be 'is the increase looking worth the outlay (for Boost) currently?' Looks like somewhere around a 10% difference max at the mo which would probably indicate a pretty straight forward - No. Or is it less clear cut in the flesh?

Hi Strangely , You are quite right, it is difficult from the pics, I would say 10/15% right now is correct, it is hard, I will be weighing everything later to have some better idea but even then its all subjective I suppose.

I do intend to keep on with this, one test isn't enough, actually you need to run one to include the things you didn't consider at the start.
I started this because I was ready to put a bunch of the same cut into bloom, unfortunately they were held back so I had to cut them back, as a result they have many stems as you see, they are pretty even and I could take 1 from each pair that are near identical, but things like one of the A's growing one main stem and a couple of tiny ones, makes it hard to compare like with like.

Other things non grow need to be thought through, I need to take these up to my house as there isn't room in the grow for pics really, next time I will flower small, single stemmed cuts, allow no branches to grow and start them so they only grow 12 inch plants, I can get them all on a tray and cut the trips up and down 2 lots of stairs some, though my legs are in great shape

Enough rambling back to the plants,
I have been sniffing buds all evening, didn't smoke all day, not easy! its been a tough day so I could really focus, trouble is now I am smoking I forgot what I found Thank goodness for notes!
I meant to write about the smells last night and got side tracked, still I have done a better job tonight so maybe for the best. There is no doubt in my mind, the Boost and the Boost & Molasses buds are not just a touch more advanced in actual development, they are also expressing so much more in the scent, it isn't that the non Boosts are lacking anything, or so you think!, it is just the B and D's scents are that much more complex, they have a top note, a sharp, astringent scent, very nice btw, If you leave a joint, when you come back next day you can find it on the un-lit spliff, I know if I smell this... acrid, maybe the word? then I wll like whatever is in the joint.
You can't get this note from any bud on any part of the A & C's, trust me I looked or rather sniffed all parts .
The Boost's have some low notes you don't smell instantly, more of an afterthought, aftersmell, only after you pull away do you really detect them, oily, garage smells, smells that affect you like tom cat pee, that empty your stomach if you get my drift?
It has really surprised me that a similar scent can be so different!
I know Canna make a point that Boost improves tastes and smells not just increases yield, I am starting to think it may be so, all the more reason to determine the active ingredient so we can just try that and eff Canna off maybe?.
I will still buy Coco, Rhiz and N PH Down from Canna, but I would be happy to dump Boost and keep the £50.

I did dump one of their products, Canna 'Start', the baby food for cuts and seedlings. It is so unstable it is not funny, I had a litre, used it for 1 week, left under my kitchen sink, came to use again 8 weeks later and it was full of the biggest flocks, I shook the he££ out of it and it didn't do a thing, ( if you're a snow-globe maker?, perfect) I wrote to Canna, actually we are sort of pen pals these days we write each other so often. They said I must have let it get too cold?, impossible, they told me to warm it in a bain marie and they should disappear, yeah they may and then reappear all over my girls roots, I binned it instead.
On writing to Canna, a few weeks ago we discussed Canna's claim that there is a guaranteed increase in yield and flavour. I wrote to Canna asking them to make clear any conditions of said 'guarantee' seems this is the only query of mine they won't respond to, odd that I will re-write I guess.
Back to the buds, I am going to have to start writing these before I smoke too, I can ramble
I will (when cropped) be able to do some better comparison pics, be able to lay buds, colas etc, side by side so anything different is more obvious.
Close up of buds should show trich diff's, if any at the end.

@ Strangly, Again it is early as you say but, I don't know that 10% and an increase in quality isn't too bad, a while ago Greyskull posted something that stuck with me on this, if £20 of Boost increased my harvest only 10% it is actually worthwhile, If I pulled 20 oz an extra 2 oz, if sold, I don't sell but IF sold is around £350/400 in London, actually if you saw London weed you would pay at least a monkey for 2 ounces of mine, so there are ways to look at this even if it is a 'slight' increase, I have to say I am more interested in the increased flavours, if I cared only about yield I'd grow Critical Mass or something. I don't know that only an increase in flavour is worth £20 a crop to some growers?, if the extra scents translate into more complex, more interesting tastes when smoked I would think it would, goingoff the differences right now!, I hope this makes sense, any points I can clear up, I smoked a freshly grown bit of Haze not used to it uncured but it's lively, I could talk the hind leg off my coffee table right now .