Can we solve the mystery LED deficiency before it takes over the world?

[hambre]

I don’t think so.

I live in a small apartment and grow in small cabs and a tent, trying to keep the micro environments in perfect condition in each of my small grows spaces( 2-3 cabs + tent) would be very tedious work and expensive.
I also live in the north, we get cold winters here when the room temperatures get colder and humidity drops to around 20-30% for 6 months+ . It would be very expensive to try to fight these seasonal changes and have the environment in perfect condition thru out the year.

Keeping a res going for coco plants is annoying during winter over here and i would have to have a heater in the res to keep it warm enough. Been there. And hand watering coco is much more annoying than soil growing, i just tried it for few plants some months ago and i find it too tedious compared to soil growing, and i even had some Blumats in the pots helping we with watering the coco..

EC and pH meters need calibration, which is annoying and costs money. Been there. We have stable water here and i never measure pH, nor the EC for my liquid nutes for soil. I do use pH Down but i never measure any pH value.

On top of all that bullshit, now i need a CO2 tank next to my bed, you say? No thanks.

I really do think adding 0,3ml/L of CalMag into my nute solution and keeping my lights hanging high enough is much, much more easier and cheaper than changing to coco and evrything that comes along with it, and going thru all the enviro-control and CO2 nonsense you just mentioned.IMHO.

Peace.

Well, let me tell you are lazy and obviously you are not the creator of the post, so I don`t care about your excuses. Don`t try to bring down my advice just because you have different environment than the creator of the post.
If you don`t want to have control of your parameters, good luck, it is YOUR problem. You wann put CaMg in your NS? DO IT. Your problem. You don`t want to invest on a pH and EC meter, or calibrate them, you don`t invest even 50 dollars in that??? And you throw shit about my advice to other person?? Don`t invest on an airco and I am the one saying bullshit???
Maybe you should start building walls on your campment, if outside temperatures affect you so much hahaha.
Everything you said are excuses of a lazy guy, lazy enough to not even read about what he "knows".

Keep it going and thank to cannabis that is so easy to grow everywhere, even on a fucking desert at 3000 meters at the sea level. And you don`t buy a meter. May God open your eyes.

 

[GoatCheese]

Well, let me tell you are lazy and obviously you are not the creator of the post, so I don`t care about your excuses. Don`t try to bring down my advice just because you have different environment than the creator of the post.
If you don`t want to have control of your parameters, good luck, it is YOUR problem. You wann put CaMg in your NS? DO IT. Your problem. You don`t want to invest on a pH and EC meter, or calibrate them, you don`t invest even 50 dollars in that??? And you throw shit about my advice to other person?? Don`t invest on an airco and I am the one saying bullshit???
Maybe you should start building walls on your campment, if outside temperatures affect you so much hahaha.
Everything you said are excuses of a lazy guy, lazy enough to not even read about what he "knows".

Keep it going and thank to cannabis that is so easy to grow everywhere, even on a fucking desert at 3000 meters at the sea level. And you don`t buy a meter. May God open your eyes.

You talk like an american sitcom character. really tuff.

 

[hambre]

You talk like an american sitcom character. really tuff.

I don`t know what that mans.

 

[hambre]

*Means

 

[f-e]

As an interesting data point, I found this tread: lab results with canna coco A/B

I have been using cam/mg with canna a+b . . . and it seems to need it.

Canna use very low K in their coco feeds. About a third of other brands at 60ppm. They recognise the large amount their coco supplies.

I'm back on tap and have switched to canna terra. A light mix of sorts. I didn't the canna feed I know though, the shop was rushing to shut and so a rash decision was made, to follow their suggestion of plagron. Which only lists npk.
Oddly, things look alright. I did try calmag but each time the tips nipped. Kinda small scale growth tips, with inch long leaves pointing straight up, with arched spines. A trait I have seen many times, yet never have I seen it talked about. I'm doing it all wrong of course, with good run-off and h2o2. So they really should be dead according to some. 650ppfd using 420w at 300mm. Cold night just came though, so light tips for the first few hours each day.
I must get on canna ffod quick, as I can't run it like hydro with just npk.
I note the dislike of calmag with interest though. For some time I have been concerned my plants don't actually like it. Fine with my Ca and Mg but not the calmag



GoatCheese
You realise the radiation from LED is light. With very little heat radiation, which I would associate with drying abilities. If you want to look at causes for water movement, K is the big one.
Perhaps, and I'm only speculating here, the lack of IR heat radiation isn't giving the plant reason to tighten up the stomata. So you are loosing moisture that way.

I have figured that I must run a drier room though. Like 50 not 60. To get moisture moving. Though that's nowhere near your kinda dry, which could be why you see such drying.


I'm starting to see many people getting their own set of issues, blaming LEDs and looking for a common answer. This thread for instance. Who else has plants like that? Yes LED's bring about change, but for me, it's been impossible Mg demand while in coco. I don't have enough grow time in other substrates to say, but it's late, if its coming.

 

[GoatCheese]

GoatCheese
You realise the radiation from LED is light. With very little heat radiation, which I would associate with drying abilities. If you want to look at causes for water movement, K is the big one.
Perhaps, and I'm only speculating here, the lack of IR heat radiation isn't giving the plant reason to tighten up the stomata. So you are loosing moisture that way.

I have figured that I must run a drier room though. Like 50 not 60. To get moisture moving. Though that's nowhere near your kinda dry, which could be why you see such drying.


I'm starting to see many people getting their own set of issues, blaming LEDs and looking for a common answer. This thread for instance. Who else has plants like that? Yes LED's bring about change, but for me, it's been impossible Mg demand while in coco. I don't have enough grow time in other substrates to say, but it's late, if its coming.

Proper light bleach is different; it doesn’t dry out the leaves like leds do, at least not the Sun on my sun bleached tomato seedlings. The leaves went really pale yellow, almost white, but still held their shape and soft texture. I never got proper light bleach out of my 250 or 400w hps lights, it was always just heat damage.


Photons act as carriers for heat radiation.

Leds create intense and fairly concentrated beams and could thus create hot spots on leaves (via intense photons= heat carriers) without warming up the ambient air between the light fixture and the canopy as much as a hps bulb does, esp. cause it’s being moved around by fans in the grow area.

 

[f-e]

IR is photons, just as light is. You can take a UV photon and start scrubbing energy from it, shifting it through the visible spectrum from blue too red and out too IR in theory. There is no LED radiation that is somehow anything else. However, the methods of power regulation involved could add a strobing effect that our eye doesn't see. Perhaps a 100,000 refresh rate, in gaming terms.

It's all a bit more technical than is likely to matter to anyone. Who knows though. It might be the missing piece in somebodies puzzle.

HID's will put more of this IR radiation onto our plants. Our hands detect this easily. Putting both technologies side by side, it's not that LEDs have more in terms of heat, they have less. Leaf temperatures are lower. RH I find interesting.

If a plant is drinking as much, yet it's colder, then the stomata must be open further. Thus the transpiration rate is unaffected. Now I'm not saying plants do drink as much. Peer review says plants are drinking less, hence more Ca is needed. I must say though, I write this stuff down numerous times a day, and I'm not seeing them drink less. Just wanting more Ca. Stepping back and looking at open stomata some more.. we are getting more co2 in through them. CO2 users are well versed in raising RH to get them taking the co2 and then faster growth leads to higher transpiration, despite raised RH. Somewhere in here we may have some answers. Where we have more light and wide open stomata. So the leafs are loosing quite a bit of moisture.

I'm just going to tag my K thoughts onto that. Where less K would reduce stomata opening, to where it might be, had the leaf received the IR levels of sunlight or HIDs. Presuming of course that IR is a stomatal opening regulator, which is backed up by them appearing to go wide open at lights out. Judging by the smell and RH peak.

Perhaps you can see where I'm going with this. I can't fit the Ca needs in though. Which is the most commonly reported issue. I can see them offer a K reduction, but it's done as Ca issues are seen.

The mind boggles

 

[Greenheart]

The Ca, Mg, P feeding seemed to have helped in my situation. It's only been a couple days and I can already see pale green coming to replace the yellowing. Again I had an initial high K low P value so it was likely causing problems locking out other nutrients and compounding the problem with the LED demands for more CA and MG.

Fingers Crossed.

 

[f-e]

On the far red tip..
It's been established that the greatest effect on 730nm reaching a plant, is the sun going down.
In second place, RH.
It's been seen that from dry to humid (no figures) a 75% drop is seen.
On a tangent, a paper done in dry conditions is often cited, showing the red levels drop below far red in the evening. Giving us ideas about 730nm LED after dark. Which never gives consistent results.
Back on track, it's being theorised that plants must be seeing this red:far-red ratio as an indication of RH and as such it's a stomatal trigger.

Trigger of what.. I'm unsure still. What I have read says the stomata close in either dry or humid conditions. Only opening in the zone. Which just isn't sitting right with me. What I'm seeing though, as I look around at grows, is people cranking up the RH and having great success. Myself, as mould avoidance, have been lowering it and getting worse. People are struggling at 50% but winning at 65% (which just moulds my grow). I'm speculating, that the lower IR from LED leaves the plant acting like the RH is high. So, the RH needs to be high. Or, we need to put back that 730nm. It's quite specifically 730nm as the band of light absorbed in narrow. 720nm won't do. We have known the plants are very interested in 730nm for decades. The pieces are starting to fit.


My journey must take me to stomata. If indeed the plant expects high RH so is closing up, we can see how the calcium transport is shutting off. Causing us to add more to rebalance things. I have read K may actually be more about closing than opening. What I'm looking for, is how The calcium and potassium balance is working, with thoughts towards RH presence actually fixing it. While the Mg signs might be a clue to an excess in that triangle that's not going to be calcium. Though an Mg shortage is perhaps unrelated. I have seen posts with people using a wide range of epson salt additions to fix the stripes. All of which were above the 50-70ppm window.


So I'm looking at fluid movement, like most of us do. However, not from the entire IR band. Warming the plant and targeting 730nm with the right amount for our actual RH seems feasible