q3corn
Active member
This might be it. Should be between 6.0 and 6.5 in soil. Less if coco. It looks like you're in soil.
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Can we solve the mystery LED deficiency before it takes over the world?
This might be it. Should be between 6.0 and 6.5 in soil. Less if coco. It looks like you're in soil.
Not that I know of.
G
Guest
Outdoor, 20+ years on and off. Fluorescent? A few dozen that weren't transferred outdoors. LED? 4 complete failures. Funny enough I bought some T5s but returned them because they couldn't be daisy chained and had no on/off switches.
I've tried multiple soil mixes, compost sources, I was about ready to import a truck load of dirt from back home just to eliminate anything in the soil, but I've even tried straight peat and synthetic fertilizers. I've had trouble getting the soil ph right where I want it,but figured 7 was close enough. Honestly, can you call peat + crappy compost soil? This stuff doesn't feel or act like soil. I notice a subforum for coco coir, and recommendations for coco coir, but peat is lumped in with soil as soon as a little compost is introduced? It ain't soil.. Maybe it does need a perfect 6.23775pH,I don't know, I'd never touched this stuff in my life until moving to a wasteland where there is no soil for hundreds of miles in any direction,only white crust.
But again, this isn't my problem exclusively. I see it every where,every day I look online. Most these guys are growing in bagged soil, Fox Farm Happy Frog.. "Banana canoes" are not a characteristic of any pot leaf I've ever seen, except under LEDs. I know what my genetics should look like at least, I made the seed and know it well.
Took 1 minute on reddit to find someone with the same problem, posted an hour ago.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GrowingMarijuana/comments/m7uio2/splotchy_leaves_on_seedlings/
Not to mention all the "banana canoes" on mature plants soccompact its driving drip feeder sales because so many people can't get a rose under them. It's everywhere, everyone simply thinks it's normal to have a tiny compact bush with downward bending dull ugly leaves . I guarantee thousands of people are giving up on growing every time a state legalizes because of this problem, I would've for certain.
My water source has been RO, and 50/50 Ro + tap. I just bought some "organic calmag" since I don't eat eggs and Gypsum isn't nearly as soluble as I remember... I'm lost on what acids to use, ph is new to me. It came out of a garden hose back home, well water and tap. Now I've got phosphoric acid spills under the sink and crystals floating in my water.. City life..
I'm ready to start another trial run with the lights extremely dim. I hunted down the manual for one of the LEDs to refresh myself on the recommended distances, and noticed a few interesting "grow tips"..
What does the LED manufacturer know that I don't? Looks like I better wait for that "organic" calmag to come in..
G
Guest
Seen another one before I could close that reddit link..
Cannabis should not look like this.
Cannabis should not look like this.
PDX Dopesmoker
Active member
It might be important to remember that we're trying to grow flowers rather than leaves. A leaf is a temporary structure the plant creates in order to help complete it's real goal, which is fucking and making seeds. The leaf doesn't fuck or produce seeds, so judgments of a plant's potential or health gleaned by observing it's foliage aren't always necessarily as meaningful as the observer might like to think they are. I say this because I recently harvested nice bud off of plants with less than stellar looking foliage from my 300w blurple closet grow. I never really managed to get the light quite high enough to prevent to foliage from going pale and dying at the tips, but the parts of the plant that are shaded by trichomes look very healthy. They were also look plentiful, stink up the place nicely and pack a good buzz. I cut tops and then let the understory grow out with the light at maximum height for a couple weeks and those lower buds really liked that a lot, I'm wagering my plants would've stayed green longer on top if the light were about 1' higher, but I can't complain about the results I got.
Maybe crushing the leaves with slightly too much light to keep them green produces better bud even if the living plant is less photogenic?
Maybe crushing the leaves with slightly too much light to keep them green produces better bud even if the living plant is less photogenic?
At a glance, they're waterlogged. Which may be because the water isn't getting out. Stunting is usually N or P and N caused tox leaving P which can show as dark patches, that you spoke of. So perhaps you need some P which is related to plant energy, and get up the RH so the stomata open to assist transpiration that you can help further with a fan. Also look at pot temps as warmer feet seems to push water in a bit harder. The root development issue might also be P linked as it controls side branching of the root system. I think I see a few other things, but being full of water that's not moving is going to do that.
I don't see over feed which is another reason not to drink. Nor do I see K which we know is linked with stomata opening.
In all, I would switch to bloom and get around 60-65% with some air circulation. Just a low ec though as they look stressed so won't be doing any real growing.
It's possible that high ec early on caused a salt build up within the tissue that will take some shifting. An overfeed situation stopping the plant from moving it further within itself. You could get some RO and wetting agent and give a sacrificial lamb a damn good swimming lesson. Though I don't see any actual burning signs and adding even more water to the tissue really is a sacrifice in the name of moving forward
I don't see over feed which is another reason not to drink. Nor do I see K which we know is linked with stomata opening.
In all, I would switch to bloom and get around 60-65% with some air circulation. Just a low ec though as they look stressed so won't be doing any real growing.
It's possible that high ec early on caused a salt build up within the tissue that will take some shifting. An overfeed situation stopping the plant from moving it further within itself. You could get some RO and wetting agent and give a sacrificial lamb a damn good swimming lesson. Though I don't see any actual burning signs and adding even more water to the tissue really is a sacrifice in the name of moving forward
CoconutFarmer
Member
I suggest you go the math way: Check the data of your lights supplier, e.g. 1200umols mostly at 12" / 30cm. At 80% dim you got 960umols. This is approx the limit in flower without CO2. In veg the max should be 600umols.
If the light is 30" away you can decrease the power of the light by 10-20%.
If the light is 6" away you can increase the power of the light by 10%.
If you grow instead 3'X3' in a 4x4 grow space you can decrease the power of the light by 20%
Happy growing
0j4Udcfr8z
Member
It starts out with a dull colored, dull looking sprout. As it grows, it maintains the "pea soup" coloration and dark glossy blotches form, often accompanied by a kink in the leaf (shown below)
filedata/fetch?filedataid=2029132
As the plant grows, the leaves begin to curl downwards, and maintain the strange morphology.
filedata/fetch?filedataid=2029133
The majority are effected. I see these signs in many LED gardens to lesser extent.
filedata/fetch?filedataid=2029139
The below photo is color accurate. Notice the dark blotches near the petiole and mid leaf
Notice the glossy nature of the dark patches near the midrib of the below plant.
As the lesser affected plant progresses, the more affected plant continues to curl up and display deficiencies.
The heavily affected plants will continue to curl up and show any and all deficiency from the bottom up until leaf drop and it's inevitable slow death outruns the slow development of new growth, a process which can take several months.
- Poisoning seems most likely. Warm compost poisons plants, makes leaves yellow. You are adding too many chemicals, probably too much Nitrogen. Your soil is probably composting into vast amounts of nutrients, as well as additional heat and bacteria. If your house is warm, the compost will be warm. It may suprise you, but if you feel in the middle of your affected pots, you may feel extra warmth. This is composting.
This diagram by f-e may help -
Please, not my diagram. I stole it with minimal editing. It's from some 2017 book the guy I stole if from said he stole it from. But it's older than that I believe.
I have given this more thought and also believe the problem lies at the root. I read you don't understand pH adjustment in the same sentence as crystals floating around in your water. That's alarming and needs homing in on as a very possible answer. I'm also wondering if the RO machine is breeding stuff inside, or maybe your domestic supply has gone bad. Copious amounts of Hydrogen peroxide in store bought water could be used on one for a week, again, a sacrifice. N seems likely as you found giving some burnt them quickly.
I wish I could see them first hand, but I always start with the correct EC and pH by the bucket full to know what is present. Here I would be using H2O as rot/disease is on my mind.
Incorrect use of pH correction equipment could be the single answer. Burning the roots so they can't grow or support the plant. Perhaps you used Nitric which is roughly 30-0-0 and the downward green banana is a relevant sign of too much N.
Yes... I'm settled. Some sort of root problem that looks like it may be an excess. I'm unsure what you are growing in, but have taken the soil off roots in the shower before.
Lets hear a bit more about the pH and any organic amendments you might be using. Things like urea that can't be used in coco perhaps. A common N source in organic soil feeds.
I have given this more thought and also believe the problem lies at the root. I read you don't understand pH adjustment in the same sentence as crystals floating around in your water. That's alarming and needs homing in on as a very possible answer. I'm also wondering if the RO machine is breeding stuff inside, or maybe your domestic supply has gone bad. Copious amounts of Hydrogen peroxide in store bought water could be used on one for a week, again, a sacrifice. N seems likely as you found giving some burnt them quickly.
I wish I could see them first hand, but I always start with the correct EC and pH by the bucket full to know what is present. Here I would be using H2O as rot/disease is on my mind.
Incorrect use of pH correction equipment could be the single answer. Burning the roots so they can't grow or support the plant. Perhaps you used Nitric which is roughly 30-0-0 and the downward green banana is a relevant sign of too much N.
Yes... I'm settled. Some sort of root problem that looks like it may be an excess. I'm unsure what you are growing in, but have taken the soil off roots in the shower before.
Lets hear a bit more about the pH and any organic amendments you might be using. Things like urea that can't be used in coco perhaps. A common N source in organic soil feeds.
Switcher56
Comfortably numb!
Switcher56
Comfortably numb!
PH should be more in line with 6 to 6.5 in peat, swinging between those numbers
Peat and compost are both seen as soil. Coco is different, and offers no food, like hydro. Though does have a cec, like clay balls
I'm still stuck on pH adjustments leading to crystals in the water. I have no idea what substrate that really is, or what it's being fed. It looks like wood chippings.
Perhaps you should rip up everything and start again using things we recognise. Fetch a bag of coco because quite a few people use that, and don't mix anything in with it. Get some coco feed from a common brand. No additives. An EC and pH meter with calibration solutions. pH down from the shop, not draino. A basic known recipe. Use your RO machine but never use RO until the ec is up to at least 0.4 with calmag. Feeding with RO in them twigs will collapse a plant. You should check your taps ec&ph though, as maybe it's fine and influences feed choice.
There are just too many variables for me. I wish I could help, but think I would have to be there as your grow is so individual.
What is the white stuff outside? Calcareous soil? Might this compost be of local origin, making it high in calcium. Making problems for P. You may find that soil is actually good if you can get some water to it. Lab testing costs a good takeaway. However it still leaves you walking your own path. Come over to coco. Perhaps with hydroguard or white shark incase you have something blowing in on the breeze
Sorry, the chuck it away and use something known suggestion might not seem useful. It's just I can't quantify whats before me.
With some coming out the ground and failing about as soon as mammas milk runs dry, while others last so much longer, Its in the soil. They are fed the same and lit the same, in the same air, so it's disease most probably. Perhaps I'm looking at different strains more able to fight it, or different handfuls from the bag. It seems their fate is sealed though.
I notice in the worst of the pics that where the hardened stem goes into the soil the soil may of sunk through continued composting as has been suggested. The exposed bit of root there looks very dark. I would like to of seen a better image here, to ponder on pithium or such. Which is best seen at this point. Blackening the stem (well its root really) from the inside out, stopping anything getting to the plant.
This still leaves me at chuck the lot out. I'm just explaining why in better detail. As the choice is yours.
I have a strange feeling this poor plants and white wasteland has come up before. Just how barren is it? there must be trees near water, and people growing in gardens. Lawns. Greenhouses? Perhaps there are clues.
With some coming out the ground and failing about as soon as mammas milk runs dry, while others last so much longer, Its in the soil. They are fed the same and lit the same, in the same air, so it's disease most probably. Perhaps I'm looking at different strains more able to fight it, or different handfuls from the bag. It seems their fate is sealed though.
I notice in the worst of the pics that where the hardened stem goes into the soil the soil may of sunk through continued composting as has been suggested. The exposed bit of root there looks very dark. I would like to of seen a better image here, to ponder on pithium or such. Which is best seen at this point. Blackening the stem (well its root really) from the inside out, stopping anything getting to the plant.
This still leaves me at chuck the lot out. I'm just explaining why in better detail. As the choice is yours.
I have a strange feeling this poor plants and white wasteland has come up before. Just how barren is it? there must be trees near water, and people growing in gardens. Lawns. Greenhouses? Perhaps there are clues.
Just a note about RO. If you have the type of RO that flushes its self, sometimes the flush cycle can be adjusted. If not flushing often enough, stuff can build up inside the filters/canister. Found out our RO was over 9 in pH, and had a big salt/sodium build up. We set it to flush more often, and that fixed the problem.
vulcanofilo
New member
It starts out with a dull colored, dull looking sprout. As it grows, it maintains the "pea soup" coloration and dark glossy blotches form, often accompanied by a kink in the leaf (shown below)
filedata/fetch?filedataid=2029132
As the plant grows, the leaves begin to curl downwards, and maintain the strange morphology.
filedata/fetch?filedataid=2029133
The majority are effected. I see these signs in many LED gardens to lesser extent.
filedata/fetch?filedataid=2029139
The below photo is color accurate. Notice the dark blotches near the petiole and mid leaf
Notice the glossy nature of the dark patches near the midrib of the below plant.
As the lesser affected plant progresses, the more affected plant continues to curl up and display deficiencies.
The heavily affected plants will continue to curl up and show any and all deficiency from the bottom up until leaf drop and it's inevitable slow death outruns the slow development of new growth, a process which can take several months.
Es un virus,
G
Guest
I flush manually, often. I run a permeate pump which creates "tds creep" in the first part of the flow after non use, so I'm constantly checking EC and PH, so much that I can predict what it will be with accuracy. I had the RO apart not many months ago, nothing gets dirty even the sediment filters.. I'm pretty anal about keeping it clean, I wouldn't even breath on it while building the system. I think I can rule that out RO issues
G
Guest
My memory is a little foggy but I think the crystals were either when I tried mixing salt fertilizers (B before A? A before B? who knows!), either that or using phosphoric acid to adjust pure tap water (ppm was regularly over 500). I haven't done either in a while,but have since discovered diluting everything with RO separately before mixing them together might help prevent that. The hydro shop seems fine with precipitated nutes; they get to sell you more. They also don't sell nitrogen fixing bacteria.
The soil outside most would call a red clay, but it bleaches out on the surface.. I oncebbought some fill dirt from 2 different sources and you could tell when it rained, the patches from supplier A would soak up the rain while supplier B would puddle up. The soils ph is over 8 from what I remember. So was the last bag of compost I used,and the composter said he uses a sulfur product to keep ph down, so there's no telling. Many gardeners I've talked to said it took them a couple seasons after building their gardens before things start working.
The more I read your posts, the more I remember different things Ive tried. Most of my soils have revolved around the Clackamas Coot mix from buildasoil. You're seeing rice hulls in the photos. My first run I cut the amendments down to about 2/3 of the Coots recipe, the seedlings had lockout problems before they were 2 weeks old. For whatever reason the roots kept growing and sucking up nutes with no foliage. 3 weeks of roots 10 days of shoots.
G
Guest
Wrong! and its time to/you learn
Well I'll have to do that at some point in the future, but as of now I think I've ruled out light intensity being the issue. To be honest I wonder if a lot of growers who think the lights are too bright are just having nutrient/root issues. When I first looked into LEDs, the discussion was light beaching (hash tips maaaan!) So that's what I've always looked for. I have had completely starch white leaves on the bottom, and white edges on seedlings first set from 3 feet away at half brightness, but nothing that indicates leaf burn or bleaching up top.
G
Guest
I was thinking about this last night, that it defiantly seems like I need phosphorous. They talk about the Coots mix being low on P because you don't want to hurt the mycorrhizal fungi. I was considering trying MAP but let the hippy angels on both my shoulders talked me out of it. Phosphorous defiantly seems like the problem. But.. Isn't phosphorus dependent on magnesium? I'm taking a wild uneducated stab here, but do roots grow via phosphorus coming back down the phloem along with sugars? I keep telling myself these purple striped stems you see under LED ain't normal.. Sugar buildup (purpling) is related to phosphorous deficiency, but I see people calling it a magnesium symptom. Even Jorge Cervantes said in his book decades ago that purpling came from magnesium def. I heard that from my partner all the time.
My roots grow straight down until the [surviving] plants get big, 5-10 gallon kind of big, then they branch out near the surface (that's also when symptoms become things I recognize). I thought that central root column was the nature of those gimmicky fabric pots for a while but I'm seeing the same thing in plastic pots, so it's either hormones or phosphorous? (A side note about those felt pots; they are using the wrong material! I have some fabric starter bags that work much better, the material is like a cheapo car cover I bought from harbor freight that didn't even keep the dust out. The felt material just runs out the sides and drys up so unevenly I don't know how anyone tolerates them)
Tip burn has never been an issue, even with dark glossy leaves. I did get clawing when using chems though. I'm gonna keep the salts away for now. But that reminds me of a weird observation.. I check the roots of every plant in my grow, I've never seen rot whatsoever. But, and I know this is weird, but should rinsed cannabis roots taste salty? (Like sodium chloride, not synthetic ferts)
