Can we solve the mystery LED deficiency before it takes over the world?

[Guest]

New run starting soon. Game plan? No more experimenting. Lots of soluble Calcium. Lots of microbially digested phosphorus in the soil. Continuing with the fulvic and perpetual microbes. Replacing tap calcium with [calcium chloride?] since I'm sodiumphobic and that's why I never used my tap in the first place.

Time to crush it. Hopefully purple weed doesn't go out of fashion again.

 

[Chevy cHaze]

I've had success by simply doubling the powdered dolomite in LC's soilless recipe with coir and reducing the light intensity to 50% during veg and early flower.
Wanted to post this earlier but got stoned, sorry
CC

 

[Guest]

One of the bagseed in my torture chamber went all nannyfied so I started prepping for harvest..

Found these "hash tips". Female reproductive organs "bleached by the led light".

How did the led light bleach my bottoms?

​​​​​​Hmm...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No "led bleaching" higher up, only poorly developed buds with low aroma from lack of proper nutrition.

Too bad about the tranny surprise, I was gonna take her home to mom. Would she have turned wine purple , or "led bleached" white?

Fragile upper leaves. I'm not blaming the leds. Those dry tips showed up when I switched to tap. Salt stress imagine.

Days from harvest the plant keeps making new flowers, even since taking the above photo the ratio has regressed..However, the buds aren't getting any bigger. I'll call her Blackish Hole.

​

 

[navjon]

Clean water keep an eye on ph add epsom salt 1 cup per 160L and dim or raise light to suit worked for me not sure which one fixed the problem so i just keep doing it all when the problem comes back every run

 

[TychoMonolyth]

I'm late to the party but the OP plants are cannibalizing themselves. It's at the bottom so it can only be one of three things. They're drowning, roots are rotting, or it's hungry. Solve those things and you'll be good. P and N are mobile nutrients and are being moved up to feed new growth, or at the very least, to keep itself alive.

Take them out of the pots and wash dirt off the roots. Inspect them and trim off any brown roots. Replant it in fresh soil and feed them 1/2 strength for a week then full strength after that.

 

[f-e]

Have we noticed how more N, P, Ca and Mg are often spoke of for LED's, but not K?

What if there was enough K, or even a greater ability to take K. How would that look?
Firstly, having more K available, adds bulk to buds. That's it's main contribution. Filling out buds. LED growers do tend to get more weight with the same ppfd. Often, surprisingly less.
What else would more K do. Well, suppressing Ca and Mg would be major signs. LED grows do need more Ca and Mg.
What would direct K damage look like? well as a salt, burnt tips and edges, with spots of necrosis.

Interesting pic of the tops getting lighter and the Ca signs. Iron. Mg.

Next pic is more excess K


Remember my long problem thread where the leaves showed this kind of die back. While I banged on and on about being scared of K so never add any or use high K feeds. Yet there I was doing pretty much this. I'm in coco so gain lots of K from that I don't want, so I'm prone to K over feeding by default.



Could LED be favouring K?

What else does K do... well it plays a big role in regulating the stomata. I feel this could be somewhere things get out of wack. LEDs make the light but not the heat. They are not hand in hand, our light levels and expected heat present. The process is screwed up. We know low K reduces the opening response leading to localised burn. High K would open them more?

I'm not read up on how K moves or what regulates stomata. I just thought I would table the idea for peer review

 

[Chevy cHaze]

Interesting and good points f-e!
For me using some biobizz grow along with biobizz CalMag sorted it for the bonsai mums and cuttings in coco. I since then add CalMag to every watering and with the other nutes (guanokalong grow, bloom, batboost and liquid seaweed) i never saw it pop up again. I was thinking it could be the supplemented K from the seaweed myself but have such a mix of nutes that it was hard to put my finger on it... makes all more sense to me now!
Cheers
CC

 

[f-e]

Somebody using potassium silicate in coco found it caused problems, but I can't find the post again (he used a brand name I forget). It was results much like the last pic that prompted them to tell us.

 

[f-e]

Perhaps the most encompassing agreement is Calcium.
Looking at my K idea again, it's excess could, for some of us, be accounted for by a lack of Ca. Feeds are generally balanced with 2 or 4 parts K to 1 part Ca. If the Ca gets munched on heavily, that ratio is going to change. I'm not sure, but think 10:1 is extreme K:Ca. Those mixing their own feeds have moved to higher amounts of Ca. Where the K might be just 50% greater. Sometimes less K than Ca is used, but I have not seen anything like that sold commercially.

I have put them together here.

Look at those 80% of the way up. About the same on each. The stripes on the middle ones though, and degree of lightening up at the top. A bit more like high K. This light green fixes itself if we back off on the light. I feel this a big clue to whatever the issue is. The green washes out in hours, and comes back. Not many things can do that.

I'm not even sure what can come and go so easily. I'm yet to concentrate on that, but keep coming back to the idea. A major mobile, surely.

 

[f-e]

The OP here left here talking about a P and Ca bump. Three months later, they are posting the same pics elsewhere as examples of Ca deficiency.

Even if Ca fixed it, that doesn't actually mean it was low. He was in compost, so tiny plants shouldn't be lacking Ca straight away. He might be suppressing K and increasing pH with his Ca, as both can cause crazy curl. I also found P def explained nearly everything else, and he went off to bump P.

It's a shame when people ask advice. Using up our time. Then don't share their results. It's hard to say what happened, but they claim to be over it.

 

[Greenheart]

I'm in coco so gain lots of K from that

:mindblown

THANKS!


FE CHEVY YOU GUYS ROCK!

I've been struggling hard with the led scene. I think my problem is battling high K amounts from the start. Reducing light and calmag shots are all I can do so far to keep it healthy in there. I used coco to build my wormbed. I also used some langbeinite not knowing the coco had K in it.

Even if the OP quit the mag and left those of us behind have benefited from your continued discussion.

The High K plant mid leaves really clued me in.

 

[f-e]

Well it's just thoughts on the subject right now. Nobody really has the answer. I ran a few irrigations a day, for a few days, using no K. However 90ppm was still in my run-off. It's hard to ignore.
The OP's claims elsewhere are a bit rubbish. While here he didn't know the problem, elsewhere he talks like he withheld the Ca to get pics. Also claiming Ca fixes everything as it aids P. However Ca is an antagonist for P. He goes on to say chlorophyll isn't green. The whole world is keeping Ca a secret from him, it's a conspiracy. Offering no pics of fixed plants. It's as accurate as my assessments lol



Many coco stories filtering down from pro-grows say food must be kept high to stop coco's own additions from changing the balance much. Our better coco growers here are really giving it some. As did I before I started making changes that have just made things worse.

 

[GoatCheese]

People growing in soil also suffer from LED Radiation problem, There’s no coco to leach extra K. I didn’t have any K burn issues when i grew two plants in coco earlier this year, thou i’m mainly a soil grower.

The yellowing leaf issue is caused by people keeping their modern white leds too close to their plants and then the LED radiation is dehydrating the plant tissue causing yellowing, dried out looks and the leaves to lose their waxy shine.

Modern white LEDs/COBs are alot more powerful than purple-light leds of 10 years ago that you could keep very close to your plants.
Modern leds need more distance to canopy than the old led. 50-75cm+ depending how powerful the light fixture is and growing style;hydro/coco vs. soil.

In soil growing there’s less moisture in the plant tissue compared to hydro and coco grown plants, so plants in soil suffer easier from the led radiation. Soil growers have to keep their leds higher up compared to hydro/coco growers using the same light on the same power setting.

When i had my G13Haze keeper growing in coco and soil side by side i could keep the hand watered coco plant alot closer to my Cree cobs than the tops of the soil-G13Hz before seeing led radiation issues. Something like 50cm distance for the coco plant and 65-75cm for the same cut in soil.

All i have added to my nutrient feed since changing from hps/cfl lights to modern white cobs/leds is adding some CalMag. 0,3ml/L for soil plants. CalMag helps the plant to grow tougher cells/tissue, so the plant won’t dehydrate under the radiation stress so easily.
It’s not a K issue or a N deficiency, it caused by people keeping their leds too close to their plants which then dehydrates the leaves. Raise your lights abit and add some CalMag to your feed.

 

[Chevy cHaze]

I have witnessed similar things to what you describe GC
But also there is a mechanism where some micronutrients are used up more quickly under these admittedly way more powerful lights.
Without the addition of CalMag and Seaweed/Kelp extract (K) these symptoms show much earlier and are way worse.
What I'm doing right now is keep the CalMag and liquid Seaweed as a staple in my feeding schedule and raise the lights a bit too. My Mars TS1000s luckily come with a dimmer, so running them at 50% during veg has been beneficial for the plants. For flowering I turn them up to 75% and then only during the second half of flower I turn them up all the way.
So far this works very well. I have in the past amended my soilless coco/perlite/ EWC mix with too much dolomite lime and that was not a good idea because you can't get rid of it if it starts messing with the other nutes (I used way too much). I'm now running the standard LC mix with a bit of lime and add CalMag when/if necessary.
I used to run LC's food recipe with blood, bone, kelp but since I can't source the ingredients around where I live now, I have resorted to Guanokalong organic complete mix 3kg tub for 100l soilless mix. This seems to work very nicely, the plants are looking very good and I keep adding a bit of CAlMag and Seaweed extract to every watering.
CC

 

[hambre]

It is amazing to me to still read crap like "it is the CALMAG", "it is the pH", bla, bla, bla... Man, look, your problem here is your indecision. First, your number one issue is making a list of what is NOT the issue, you first must understand the processes behind what you are trying to achieve. Second, your soil is crap, sorry, but is decisive on what your plants look like. That`s all. It doesn`t has anything to do with the lights (which are great).
As a constructive critic, I suggest you to change your parameters, starting with the substrate, coco coir is VERY EASY, fertilizers are super cheap. A pH and an EC meter, the most cheaper ones will serve the purpose too. Check your pots, make them a good drain. Don`t take the hard way, start from zero and be conscious about what you do, this is very easy. People will tell you a lot of complicated shit, they don`t know what they are talking about, it surprises me we still have 2003 conversations on 2021...

You have great LED`s, your issue is not the light. I have had Samsung quantums at first I had some issues, when I saw a defficiency and posted here or other forums they would bombard me with the CALMAG shit, so stupid people. Their intentions are good but their knowledge is so poor, maybe they have great buds and crops but cannabis is so easy to grow that they attribute their grows to their formulas, but check people who doesn`t follow that way and don`t use a lot of crap to grow even better buds. I watched a video on YouTube about a problem I was having with purple stems all over with the Samsung quantums, and I understood the importance of having your parameters according to the lights you have, when you use such good lights everything must be dialed on, CO2, HR, temps, watering, nutrients, etc. This is easy: CONTROL.

Make yourself a favor, go coco, you will never regret it.

Hope everything is fine, God bless!

 

[GoatCheese]

I have witnessed similar things to what you describe GC
But also there is a mechanism where some micronutrients are used up more quickly under these admittedly way more powerful lights.
Without the addition of CalMag and Seaweed/Kelp extract (K) these symptoms show much earlier and are way worse.
What I'm doing right now is keep the CalMag and liquid Seaweed as a staple in my feeding schedule and raise the lights a bit too. My Mars TS1000s luckily come with a dimmer, so running them at 50% during veg has been beneficial for the plants. For flowering I turn them up to 75% and then only during the second half of flower I turn them up all the way.
So far this works very well. I have in the past amended my soilless coco/perlite/ EWC mix with too much dolomite lime and that was not a good idea because you can't get rid of it if it starts messing with the other nutes (I used way too much). I'm now running the standard LC mix with a bit of lime and add CalMag when/if necessary.
I used to run LC's food recipe with blood, bone, kelp but since I can't source the ingredients around where I live now, I have resorted to Guanokalong organic complete mix 3kg tub for 100l soilless mix. This seems to work very nicely, the plants are looking very good and I keep adding a bit of CAlMag and Seaweed extract to every watering.
CC

Yea, seaweed also has calcium in it along with other goodies. I use it weekly too during flowering. usually one larger dose once a week ..i’m too lazy to mix it in every time..

 

[Greenheart]

I added some heaping portions of Magnesium Oxide, Gypsum, and Calphos then watered the hell out of it. We'll see if they liked it.

My original mix had coco, greensand, langbienite, and kelp in pretty generous amounts so I'm pretty sure that gave me the initial high K value. I had some neem/karanja, alfalfa, and crab in there but I can see where I was lacking a decent P the whole time. I did use some TSP but not very much in the original mix.

Just like the OP I was a coot fan before my hiatus. I came back into it with my leftovers and some coir. I should have reread what I thought I knew but instead mixed a bunch of stuff together, threw in the veggie scraps and worms then expected to be right back where I was.

Oh and I switched my light sources. Didn't think it would make so much of a difference but apparently I didn't know shit so I'm relearning it all.

The good news is I still have two living plants and a better idea of what I was lacking. This thread hopefully set me on the right track.

I am not discouraged with LED. I do not blame the lights. In fact I can't wait to master them. ATM I'm vegging the same space with 32W instead of 300W.

 

[tobedetermined]

As an interesting data point, I found this tread: lab results with canna coco A/B

I have been using cam/mg with canna a+b . . . and it seems to need it.

 

[Chevy cHaze]

I added some heaping portions of Magnesium Oxide, Gypsum, and Calphos then watered the hell out of it. We'll see if they liked it.

My original mix had coco, greensand, langbienite, and kelp in pretty generous amounts so I'm pretty sure that gave me the initial high K value. I had some neem/karanja, alfalfa, and crab in there but I can see where I was lacking a decent P the whole time. I did use some TSP but not very much in the original mix.

Just like the OP I was a coot fan before my hiatus. I came back into it with my leftovers and some coir. I should have reread what I thought I knew but instead mixed a bunch of stuff together, threw in the veggie scraps and worms then expected to be right back where I was.

Oh and I switched my light sources. Didn't think it would make so much of a difference but apparently I didn't know shit so I'm relearning it all.

The good news is I still have two living plants and a better idea of what I was lacking. This thread hopefully set me on the right track.

I am not discouraged with LED. I do not blame the lights. In fact I can't wait to master them. ATM I'm vegging the same space with 32W instead of 300W.

Yeah I hear you on your last paragraph. My old blurple lights give me good results and nothing to worry about, but the potential with the newer lights is just so much higher! Just needs a bit of tweaking your regiment here and there to tap into it.
We got this hombres ;-)
CC

 

[GoatCheese]

It is amazing to me to still read crap like "it is the CALMAG", "it is the pH", bla, bla, bla... Man, look, your problem here is your indecision. First, your number one issue is making a list of what is NOT the issue, you first must understand the processes behind what you are trying to achieve. Second, your soil is crap, sorry, but is decisive on what your plants look like. That`s all. It doesn`t has anything to do with the lights (which are great).
As a constructive critic, I suggest you to change your parameters, starting with the substrate, coco coir is VERY EASY, fertilizers are super cheap. A pH and an EC meter, the most cheaper ones will serve the purpose too. Check your pots, make them a good drain. Don`t take the hard way, start from zero and be conscious about what you do, this is very easy. People will tell you a lot of complicated shit, they don`t know what they are talking about, it surprises me we still have 2003 conversations on 2021...

You have great LED`s, your issue is not the light. I have had Samsung quantums at first I had some issues, when I saw a defficiency and posted here or other forums they would bombard me with the CALMAG shit, so stupid people. Their intentions are good but their knowledge is so poor, maybe they have great buds and crops but cannabis is so easy to grow that they attribute their grows to their formulas, but check people who doesn`t follow that way and don`t use a lot of crap to grow even better buds. I watched a video on YouTube about a problem I was having with purple stems all over with the Samsung quantums, and I understood the importance of having your parameters according to the lights you have, when you use such good lights everything must be dialed on, CO2, HR, temps, watering, nutrients, etc. This is easy: CONTROL.

Make yourself a favor, go coco, you will never regret it.

Hope everything is fine, God bless!

I don’t think so.

I live in a small apartment and grow in small cabs and a tent, trying to keep the micro environments in perfect condition in each of my small grows spaces( 2-3 cabs + tent) would be very tedious work and expensive.
I also live in the north, we get cold winters here when the room temperatures get colder and humidity drops to around 20-30% for 6 months+ . It would be very expensive to try to fight these seasonal changes and have the environment in perfect condition thru out the year.

Keeping a res going for coco plants is annoying during winter over here and i would have to have a heater in the res to keep it warm enough. Been there. And hand watering coco is much more annoying than soil growing, i just tried it for few plants some months ago and i find it too tedious compared to soil growing, and i even had some Blumats in the pots helping we with watering the coco..

EC and pH meters need calibration, which is annoying and costs money. Been there. We have stable water here and i never measure pH, nor the EC for my liquid nutes for soil. I do use pH Down but i never measure any pH value.

On top of all that bullshit, now i need a CO2 tank next to my bed, you say? No thanks.

I really do think adding 0,3ml/L of CalMag into my nute solution and keeping my lights hanging high enough is much, much more easier and cheaper than changing to coco and evrything that comes along with it, and going thru all the enviro-control and CO2 nonsense you just mentioned.IMHO.

Peace.