breeding for terpenes

[Sam_Skunkman]

I can link uou the info on the qualitative assessment of an ultra-fast portable gas chromatograph (zNose™) for analyzing volatile organic chemicals and essential oils in laboratory and greenhouses if you like.
but i can say for sure it does not provide a genrtic foot print. I meant olfactory footprint. My mistake.

Big difference to say the least...
What is a olfactory footprint? Are all the individual terpenes Identified?
Yes please link me to the info on the znose.
-SamS

 

[mexcurandero420]

Altitude and light - The lower the altitude at which the thyme plant is grown the more pronounced are the following
effects:
■ The essential oil becomes more aggressive – more phenolic and antiseptic.
■ The colour of the essential oil also changes, from a light straw to a deeper hue.
■ The structure of the main component molecule changes from an open chain to a monocyclic chain to an aromatic ring base.

These effects are due in part to the quality of light available to the plant. At high altitudes (above 1000 metres) there is a relatively high
amount of free ultraviolet, while at low altitudes there is less ultraviolet and a proportional increase in the more penetrating infrared frequencies. The plant responds to the quality of light falling on it (and to other growing conditions) and produces different chemicals accordingly. Another influencing factor is the latitude of the country of origin. The further north the plant grows, the
more phenols are produced – for instance Thymus vulgaris grown in Finland produces up to 89% phenol (von Schantz et al 1987).
More changes may be expected in oil-bearing plants in the future because of chlorofluorocarbon damage to the ozone layer. Higher levels of ultraviolet radiation are expected to reach the
surface of the earth, and research carried out to test the possible effects of this on plant growth suggests that alpine species will be least affected by increased ultraviolet radiation. These tests
involved Aquilegia canadensis and A. caerulea. The first normally grows at low altitude, and showed less growth during the test, but the second, alpine, plant was not affected in this way: it even grew
extra leaves (Gates 1991).

Aromatherapy for Health Professionals - Shirley Price

Keep on growing

 

[G.O. Joe]

If you want a particular smell from a particular cure then you still need the terpenes don't you? So you need to breed for terpenes.

It was an important enough etc. variable IME to specifically mention. I particularly favor herbal yet sweet leaf not for instance overpoweringly skunky or anything, so the point was superior product is a bit cure-dependent in my case.

What do you refer to?

The preeminent lit. such as Hazekamp and Fischedick of Bedrocan BV. The science to back their claims isn't there and they should know this, unless something's been published in the last few months. Double-blind and physiological proof should not be that hard to properly set up. Strains can be de-terpenated (steam) and compared just that way - compared with for instance the addition of selected combinations and individual terpenes to those, and also to purified THC.

It should be assumed there are variables that are not obvious. I get higher from a bad overtoke coughing fit than most any other time. The first time with something new has an increased effect. Or when I smoke a lot within 2 minutes of starting - past that I just don't get higher.

 

[Bongstar420]

I dont think THC is responsible for much of the medical effects of Cannabis.

 

[MiMedicineMan]

wow thanks Sam for Chiming in here, your reputation precedes you

and thank you mexcurandero420 for teaching me why my meds are better than everybody elses

I would like to try several different strains possibly of the same geographic origin and compare the effect of them compared to each other when they have been stripped of all terpenes.

I notice when I consume decarboxylated oil I can't tell a difference in which is which. This may be psychological from not being able to taste it so my mind thinks they are all the same where I get a "comfort" when I taste something that I know is going to be medicating and my mind sort of anticipates it. Not unlike when you hear a song for the first time and it seems new and strange; but hear it over and over again and as soon as you hear the intro you can anticipate what is coming next.

It's the same with different strains, I can't tell you much about the genetic from hitting a joint once, but give me a quarter or an oz and a week and ill get to know it real well...

The reason why I started this thread is because I want to know why I like some strains so much.

People who know me know that the way I know its a keeper is if I smoke it for the first time and it makes me contemplate quitting cannabis forever. Panic attack!! Thats a killer pheno that I know anybody will get off on. I have several of those, but I can't tell you why this one is great and this one is great and they have similar cannabanoid profiles yet they're so different.

It is also about getting the strongest whatever it is you get, I feel it's more mystical than that

 

[AlterEgo860]

dude ill tell u one thing.. ive ran certain clones..and seeds and the first run mite show how good it is.. but shit.. ive had a plant express some traits after being completely dialed in.. a few runs in.. and it was amazing how much different the end product was.. ive had a plant smell and taste completely different .. or become frostier.. or become stronger potency smell or taste wise.

so now I make sure I run 2-3 runs then toss.. unless it hermis ... then if the second time it hermis again. I toss it.. sometimes ive had plants that ive taken too many clones off before flowering her out.. and had it hermi.. then every single clone off that plant never hermied?

stress is something I think its kinda like human with plants.. stress builds and builds until it expresses itself.. nanners?

that's my opinion. but ive had amazing results with strains that started off first flower like crapp.

 

[vapor]

water and terp's whats the scoop. some come through the water extraction process better then others. anyone have any interesting reading?

 

[MiMedicineMan]

Are the better ones the ones that go through the water better?

Terpenes have very low boiling points. Like room temperature sometimes. If you are using water extraction the colder the better. I like water extraction for big jobs, but I will always prefer some dry sift from high quality cannabis any day over some bubble.

I have a thread called washing machine hash the right way. It is pretty step by step to make the BEST water hash I've ever had even from fan leaves.

Now I have only ever seen 1 kif box that makes really good dry sift kif that will press right in to hash in your hand with the touch of a finger. It is my kif box. I paid like 200 for it so don't skimp out on this because the better the box the better the screen willl be on the bottom. And remember you have to start with high quality product to get high quality extract. If you use harsh chemicals to grow then don't flush (or don't flush properly) you are risking doing all the work of extracting to get something out that you don't want to consume.

 

[MiMedicineMan]

So i went to the cup in december! OMG

guess what I learned.

ok ill tell you

"Blending smells" or "Blending terpenes"

is the mendo way. That is how the breeders who I met there told me they select. It's all about smell and taste and other stuff is secondary. It just reinforces the idea to me that we ARE breeding for terpenes and that means that I need to start breeding because I need to find the right ones for me.

I brought back 3 lifetimes of seeds. Some stuff I have flat out never heard of ever, and some stuff I have. I even got some industrial hemp seeds!! I can't wait to start cracking these, I have to check into the threads on starting old seeds

 

[TheRealHash]

So i went to the cup in december! OMG

guess what I learned.

ok ill tell you

"Blending smells" or "Blending terpenes"

is the mendo way. That is how the breeders who I met there told me they select. It's all about smell and taste and other stuff is secondary. It just reinforces the idea to me that we ARE breeding for terpenes and that means that I need to start breeding because I need to find the right ones for me.

I brought back 3 lifetimes of seeds. Some stuff I have flat out never heard of ever, and some stuff I have. I even got some industrial hemp seeds!! I can't wait to start cracking these, I have to check into the threads on starting old seeds

Can you elaborate, you got me interested. Btw nice thread

 

[MiMedicineMan]

The breeder from aficionado told me the first thing he selects for is smell and taste. Look, stature, yield, flowering time are all second to smell and taste.

I took this to heart because this is how I grow and select phenos; so If I were to breed I would probably do the same thing

 

[in vivo]

I would like to know how effective oral terpenes modify THC and Cannabinoids.

I want to say I've read information in relation to D-limonene potentially increasing oral bioavailability of some drugs. Many terpenes are believed to be CYP450 inhibitors (which may increase oral bioavailability).

Linalool and others are skin penetrants, which might be beneficial for topical applications.

I always wondered if the THC was being made more accessible with the addition of the right terpenes, either to the lungs or via the blood the brain barrier. If anyone has ideas I am interested...

The head of research and development at Bedrocan published study that looked into the differences between vaporizing and smoking. They observed plasma levels and anticipated terpenes like myrcene to somehow modulate the affinity or efficacy of cannabinoids. They didn't notice any change based on the terpenes present. It looks like the majority of the effects of terpenes might function independently from CBRs.

hxxp://cpb.pharm.or.jp/cpb/201002/c02_0201.pdf?origin=publication_detail

I did recently read a study that showed co-administering CBC along with THC increases THC levels in the brain. But only at higher levels.

hxxp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2967639/

I wouldn't doubt if other cannabinoids affect one another in similar ways.

Additionally, beta-caryophyllene is a full CB2 agonist, and other cannabinoids are CB2 agonists. CB1 and CB2 form functional heteromers and negatively modulate one another (activation of one turns the other down). That suggests that while beta-caryophyllene might not be a bad idea for someone targeting CB2 receptors, it may inhibit the psychoactive effects of THC.

hxxp://www.jbc.org/content/287/25/20851.full

Many other GPCRs modulate CB1 and vice versa.

hxxp://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/content/62/4/588.short

I've got two companion threads on a board that relate to this. One is dedicated to 'the entourage', the other the endocannabinoid system. It's like pulling teeth getting people to discuss this stuff, particularly the ECS. It seems like such a good expenditure of time.

Sorry for barging in on your thread MMM. Here's a thread with some information about terpenes:

hxxp://michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/topic/43999-the-entourage-one-of-the-many-missing-pieces-to-the-puzzle/page-1

It's a bit of a hodgepodge. When I started it I wasn't able to quantify terpenes. Now that's changed and things are really just getting started.

Is anyone posting cannabinoid/terpene profiles over here and discussing reviews of them?

 

[Only Ornamental]

@ in vivo:
Don't forget the TRPV1 and other ion channels as well as the endocannabinoid transporters and FAAH which could be modulated by terpenes. Furthermore, our understanding in CB receptor endocytosis is rather scarce.

Effects on CYP450 (substrate inhibition or induction of expression) are very well known for many terpenes and flavonoids but require higher doses or regular consumption/exposure. The amount of essential oil resorbed by smoking a joint is minimal and that of flavonoids close to zero. Eating it would be better but the pharmacokinetic profile of all the different players changes drastically and should theoretically change the 'trip profile' too. That's why I still doubt these proclaimed 'terpene effects'...
There may be a yet unknown receptor/sensor/effect for monoterpenes because they seem to do a lot at very low concentrations but lack so far the affinity and/or potency on most investigated receptor and molecular targets. It looks considerably better for sesqui- and especially diterpenes, just that Sam thinks otherwise, no reasonable concentrations of diterpenes are found in cannabis and the sesquiterpenes seem only present in WLD types at noteworthy concentrations. The world is still full of mysteries and wonder .

Concerning myrcene: If it were precisely this one, that'll be really 'bad luck' because it's so unstable...

 

[MiMedicineMan]

I know greenhouse tells some of the terpenes available in their seeds. Are there any more companies that list terpenes available in their genetics?

Also I have found with the more landrace herb I try I find they are more similar than I thought. Like tons of strains Im finding now come from afghani including my Indiana bubblegum. Also basiclally anything that tastes like oranges (Oregon skunk?) Is from the afghani.

I tried some Oriental express which is trainwreck x thai landrace and it was strikingly similar to the Colombian gold I tried while in Cali

 

[in vivo]

Don't forget the TRPV1 and other ion channels as well as the endocannabinoid transporters and FAAH which could be modulated by terpenes. Furthermore, our understanding in CB receptor endocytosis is rather scarce.

Absolutely. I didn't mean to imply I was providing a comprehensive list. I was just kind of poking into the dark to coax someone like yourself to come out and help me think critically about this stuff.

The amount of essential oil resorbed by smoking a joint is minimal and that of flavonoids close to zero. Eating it would be better but the pharmacokinetic profile of all the different players changes drastically and should theoretically change the 'trip profile' too.

if this statement is in regards to increasing oral bioavailability of cannabinoids I agree that many of them don't make it beyond first pass, and aren't present in levels that are likely to increase the bioavailability by much if at all.

That's why I still doubt these proclaimed 'terpene effects'...

This makes me wonder if you're speaking to the effects of inhaled terpenes in general.

There may be a yet unknown receptor/sensor/effect for monoterpenes because they seem to do a lot at very low concentrations but lack so far the affinity and/or potency on most investigated receptor and molecular targets. It looks considerably better for sesqui- and especially diterpenes, just that Sam thinks otherwise, no reasonable concentrations of diterpenes are found in cannabis and the sesquiterpenes seem only present in WLD types at noteworthy concentrations.

There is a great deal of research on the pharmacological characteristics of a number of terpenoids. Terpenes present in amounts as low as 0.05% are of pharmacological interest (Russo). There's an interesting thesis in that thread I linked above. Some good citations, and they investigate controlled delivery methods (volcano) to delivery terpenes.

I'm not so sure that sesquiterpenes aren't present in noteworthy amounts. Beta-caryophyllene would be one example.

There is quite a bit of information in that thread linked above. Maybe once I get some more time I'll transfer some of it over here so I don't barge into this thread. There's also a really good thread here that I found last night titled 'terpenoids'.

 

[Only Ornamental]

I know greenhouse tells some of the terpenes available in their seeds. Are there any more companies that list terpenes available in their genetics?

Did you took a very close look at those charts?
It is astonishing how much a plant cultivated in soil differs from one in hydro. With some, it's like two different varieties! Apart form many 'breeding factors', differences between sunlight and artificial light will be very important.
I'm not convinced that these terpene profiles are really helpful. Sure, they are nice to see and all but maybe more of a marketing gig (what else do you expect from the king of cannabis?).
Look for example at garden thyme (the spice/herb); by definition, there are six chemotypes which are only determined by the chemical composition of their essential oil (or rather the predominant monoterpene in it) because their genetic background plays only one part (there are no real phenotypical markers/differences), the other is environmental factors. You can find different chemotypes growing wild next to each other or can buy/get/steal two different types and grow them in your garden only to find that they smell identical a year later. It's about the same with cannabis; some 'types' contain more of certain terpenes than others but it's rather blurred and fluctuating... I found only one publication showing real differences (don't have a link at hand); WLD aka indicas contain additional sesquiterpenes absent in NLD aka sativas and C. sativa aka hemp.

 

[Only Ornamental]

if this statement is in regards to increasing oral bioavailability of cannabinoids I agree that many of them don't make it beyond first pass, and aren't present in levels that are likely to increase the bioavailability by much if at all.

Not necessarily oral bioavailability but any effect in general .

This makes me wonder if you're speaking to the effects of inhaled terpenes in general.

Precisely. Although, aroma therapy and alike work well and some essential oils applied in high enough quantities really have considerable pharmaceutical effects.

There is a great deal of research on the pharmacological characteristics of a number of terpenoids. Terpenes present in amounts as low as 0.05% are of pharmacological interest (Russo). There's an interesting thesis in that thread I linked above. Some good citations, and they investigate controlled delivery methods (volcano) to delivery terpenes.

I'm not so sure that sesquiterpenes aren't present in noteworthy amounts. Beta-caryophyllene would be one example.

There is quite a bit of information in that thread linked above. Maybe once I get some more time I'll transfer some of it over here so I don't barge into this thread. There's also a really good thread here that I found last night titled 'terpenoids'.

Have to have a look at that link myself .
My idea wasn't based on sesquiterpenes concentration but structure and known molecular targets and mechanisms of different terpene types etc.

 

[MiMedicineMan]

Great links Thanks peeps for putting it down - much respect

 

[in vivo]

WLD aka indicas contain additional sesquiterpenes absent in NLD aka sativas and C. sativa aka hemp.

Thank you for helping me with the abbreviations.

I'm not disputing that each seed produces its own chemotype. I don't think many people are growing land race genetics and I think that current nomenclature 'sativa/indica' is antiquated. Possessing a better understanding of the role of each terpene, and combinations of terpenes in the elicited effects of a particular strain or chemotype seems like it might provide a better way of describing cannabis in general.

My idea wasn't based on sesquiterpenes concentration but structure and known molecular targets and mechanisms of different terpene types etc.

There is quite a bit known about the pharmacological characteristics of all sorts of terpenes. What's less understood is the ways in which these receptors modulate one another, but even that research is exponentially growing. A good overview of that research can be found in the link I posted above.

Here are some other potentially relevant quotes/papers:

Indeed the results demonstrated that cannabis varieties can be distinguished based on cannabinoid and terpenoid profiles. Interestingly cannabis varieties with similar levels of Δ9-THC could be differentiated based on mono and sesquiterpenoid content.

In contrast with other senses, olfactory information can bypass the thalamus and directly link with areas of the brain involved in emotion and memory such as the amygdala, frontal cortex, hypothalamus, and hippocampus (Kandal et al., 2000). Furthermore due to their lipophilic nature terpenoids are able to pass the blood brain barrier (BBB) and interact directly with the brain. Both mechanisms are important because odorous terpenoids can have a direct pharmacological action in the brain, such as interaction with a neural receptor, and a psychological component through the olfactory system (Heuberger, 2010).

https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/20608/04.pdf?sequence=10

Terpenoids are pharmacologically versatile: they are lipophilic, interact with cell membranes, neuronal and muscle ion channels, neurotransmitter receptors, G-protein coupled (odorant) receptors, second messenger systems and enzymes (Bowles, 2003; Buchbauer, 2010).

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1476-5381.2011.01238.x/full

Terpenes are strongly inherited and little influenced by environmental factors and, therefore, have been widely used as biochemical marker in chemosystematic studies to characterize plant species, provenances, clones and hybrids.

http://www.actahort.org/books/925/925_15.htm

 

[G.O. Joe]

Double-blind and physiological proof should not be that hard to properly set up. Strains can be de-terpenated (steam) and compared just that way - compared with for instance the addition of selected combinations and individual terpenes to those, and also to purified THC.

This issue was raised long ago:
"Comparison of the subjective effects of ∆9-tetrahydrocannabinol and marijuana in humans"
S. R. Wachtel, M. A. ElSohly, S. A. Ross and J. Ambre H. de Wit
Psychopharmacology (2002) 161:331–339

Abstract
Rationale. There has been controversy about whether the subjective, behavioral or therapeutic effects of whole plant marijuana differ from the effects of its primary active ingredient, Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC). However, few studies have directly compared the effects of marijuana and THC using matched doses administered either by the smoked or the oral form.

Objective. Two studies were conducted to compare the subjective effects of pure THC to whole-plant marijuana containing an equivalent amount of THC in normal healthy volunteers. In one study the drugs were administered orally and in the other they were administered by smoking.

Methods. In each study, marijuana users (oral study: n=12, smoking study: n=13) participated in a double-blind, crossover design with five experimental conditions: a low and a high dose of THC-only, a low and a high dose of whole-plant marijuana, and placebo. In the oral study, the drugs were administered in brownies, in the smoking study the drugs were smoked. Dependent measures included the Addiction Research Center Inventory, the Profile of Mood States, visual analog items, vital signs, and plasma levels of THC and 11-nor-9-carboxy-THC.

Results. In both studies, the active drug conditions resulted in dose-dependent increases in plasma THC levels, and the levels of THC were similar in THC-only and marijuana conditions (except that at the higher oral dose THC-only produced slightly higher levels than marijuana). In both the oral study and the smoking study, THC-only and whole plant marijuana produced similar subjective effects, with only minor differences.

Conclusion. These results support the idea that the psychoactive effects of marijuana in healthy volunteers are due primarily to THC.

Russo and McPartland's criticism of that was weak:
"Cannabis is more than simply ∆9-tetrahydrocannabinol"
Ethan B. Russo and John M. McPartland
Psychopharmacology (2003) 165:431–432

But it was responded to anyways:
"Cannabis versus THC: response to Russo and McPartland"
Mahmoud A. ElSohly, Stephen R. Wachtel and Harriet Wit
Psychopharmacology (2003) 165:433–434

Those are uploads 2, 3, and 4 at:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=4058582

10 years later, it appears that Russo (GW Pharma does have some resources) and McPartland (busy doing osteopathy maybe) have yet to present science, or even replicate Wachtel without the faults they think existed there, but that hasn't stopped hundreds of members here from IMHO inexplicably masturbating to their every word. I don't doubt that the presence of other cannabinoids has effects,
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0014299974901290
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/770048
however, the other cannabinoids are generally not present in most cannabis.