Blumat auto watering

[Ez Rider]

EZ , can you shoot me a link to what your using so i can check them out ?

I used a shurflo 182-200 accumulator, a shurflo 2088-594-154 demand pump, a shurflow 255-133 strainer, a few shurflow 1/2"fpt to 1/2" barbs 234-2926, and a blumat pressure reducer. You'll also need a 1/2"mpt to 3/4mpt adapter to connect the pressure reducer to the accumulator. You'll also need to put your own cord end and a small fuse/holder(1.25A slow blow) on the pump wiring. You can order all this stuff on amazon/ebay. I also opted for a new 25gal flex-tank. None of my existing barrels has a tap on the bottom, and I didn't want to cut holes in good containers. I've been really happy with the flex tank.

Any other questions, feel free to ask

 

[rives]

i'll talk to EZ to see what his set up is like , but i think the 5 gallon bucket above the 30 gallon might be the best option for right now . the 5 gallon would be 5'5" to the bottom of the bucket off the ground & about 4' above the plants/carrots , that should be enough head pressure right ?

The measurement that you want for finding the head pressure is to the water surface, not the bottom of the bucket, and the minimum recommended is 3' from the spike to the water surface. You should be good unless you have very long runs of the 8mm line.

If you can keep the upper rez from fluctuating more than a couple of inches it would be best. I use an 1-1/4" return line to insure that there is no possibility of an overflow, and just run the lift pump on a digital timer.

 

[Bwanabud]

Damn after hearing this it's got me slightly scared. I just got the e65 pump that's 3 gpm and i think that should work, but we'll see how many plants it will handle. SV claims that i can handle 500 carrots and I only plan on running less than 100 on each pressurized system. I hope it works but we'll see and I'll update you guys with what works and what doesn't within 2 weeks. I wish the best for you guys.

I think you're going to be very disappointed with the operation, I'm running 45 plants on my 1 system now...and the pump runs every 3.5 minutes. The pump sizing isn't near as critical as expansion(accumulator)sizing, the expansion tank can NEVER be too big...the larger the tank, the less the pump runs. The quick cycling of the pump will surely burn it's ass up, because the 26 oz. accumulator isn't large enough for anything over 20ish plants.

I doubled up the 26 oz units, and still far too small. Your pump size won't limit the cycling, only makes the cycle time run shorter...that's it, fact. If your grow location allows that kind of constant noise...fine, but for a stealthy operation or pump longevity the stock system is bullshit...plain & simple.

If you intend to use the flush stake system for checking run-off/flushing media/feeding thick nutes...forget it, the small tank doesn't cut it...pump runs every 30 seconds

PS1)Blumat told me the system was good up to 200 plants....bullshit (2) their definition of "accumulator" is incorrect also, it's an expansion tank.

 

[rives]

I think you're going to be very disappointed with the operation, I'm running 45 plants on my 1 system now...and the pump runs every 3.5 minutes. The pump sizing isn't near as critical as expansion(accumulator)sizing, the expansion tank can NEVER be too big...the larger the tank, the less the pump runs. The quick cycling of the pump will surely burn it's ass up, because the 26 oz. accumulator isn't large enough for anything over 20ish plants.

I doubled up the 26 oz units, and still far too small. Your pump size won't limit the cycling, only makes the cycle time run shorter...that's it, fact. If your grow location allows that kind of constant noise...fine, but for a stealthy operation or pump longevity the stock system is bullshit...plain & simple.

If you intend to use the flush stake system for checking run-off/flushing media/feeding thick nutes...forget it, the small tank doesn't cut it...pump runs every 30 seconds

PS1)Blumat told me the system was good up to 200 plants....bullshit (2) their definition of "accumulator" is incorrect also, it's an expansion tank.

I'm curious about some of your information.

I've never fiddled with expansion tanks on water systems, but have used accumulators extensively in industrial hydraulic applications. As far as I am aware, accumulators and expansion tanks are the same - the difference lies in the application. They are both pressure tanks with a pre-charged bladder installed in them, with an accumulator storing pressurized liquid available for instant use when a valve opens, and an expansion tank giving room for water expansion as it heats.

In hydraulics, the rule of thumb is to set the bladder pre-charge at half of the pump pressure. This will theoretically give you up to half the accumulator volume as usable volume before the pressure drops too much to be useful. If this holds true with these systems, depending on the pump working pressure and the bladder pre-charge, a 26oz accumulator should be able to provide up to 13ozs of nutrient.

The pressures are obviously vastly different, most systems that I worked with ran from 1500-3000 psi. I'm interested to find what other differences there are.

 

[Bwanabud]

Rives, not sure of your location of course...so it maybe geographically inclined terminology, but I've worked in all parts of the world. You've actually listed 3 types of vessels, all with different applications.

Accumulator: Generally thought of a vessel that holds the overage fluid, that expands upon heating...or condenses back to a fluid from cooling. When the system is back to "normal" running temps or temperature, the total system fluid overage is stored there until it is recycled. The same fluid is used through the sealed system, with the "excess" stored in the accumulator till needed....think large cooling equipment with with refrigerant fluctuation, car radiator overflow, steam generators.

Thermal expansion tank: A bladder tank vessel set at a given pressure, that expands & contracts based on system temperature. Generally is low pressure, used to absorb or maintain given fluid when system is "closed" to prevent expansion of pipes, dripping of faucets, or accidental releasing of safety valve. Think domestic hot water tank and low pressure hydronic systems.

Expansion tank: A bladder tank vessel that holds a chosen pressure, based on cut-off switch operation/setting. Cut off switch controls pump operation, which in turn pumps fluid volume into tank...maintaining a chosen system pressure, both low/high side. Sizing is based on total system volume, and capacity usage...the larger the tank, the less the pump cycles....think well water systems, air compressor tanks, Blumat

As a rule of thumb the expansion tank can never be too big, unless it would FAR out weight the volume capacity of the pump...which is why all system tank sizing is based on expansion size & the pump needed to cycle the pressure/volume correctly and efficiently.

This straight from Shurflo's spec sheet on the 182-200 model:
Depending on pre-charge pressure to the accumulator, in relation to the pump turn on/off pressures, stored liquid is about
2 to 4 oz. [60-120 ml]. If accumulator tank pre-charge exceeds pump turn on pressure, the liquid volume is reduced.

So without offending any members, the 26oz "capacity" is bullshit...that spec capacity is a total volume fluid/gas rating. So for a smallish grow it will be fine, but over 20-25 plants the pump will cycle often...very often, every 2 minutes in my case at 38 PSI

 

[Bwanabud]

Final note: It's certainly possible to over size the expansion tank in the case of grower application...Example: Put in a 100 gallon expansion tank with the correct sized pump, though the system will recycle very rarely...the nutrient changes you address because of plant health won't see the needed elements for 6-7 days

So appropriate tank/pump sizing is critical based on individual needs of plants/capacity/cycles/etc..But Blumat's statement of the stock pump/accumulator capacity of 200 plants is a farce, your pump will run like 3 legged dog with a big pecker.

I've built power plants and bio-refractories all over the world, sent many projects into space with NASA, designed and worked on huge industrial/commercial builds..I'm a pretty big deal outside my own mind, I don't claim to know everything...but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night

 

[rives]

BB, I'm in NorCal, but have worked most of the west coast and into Canada.

Interesting differences in terms, I've never heard of an accumulator being defined the way that you are. As I mentioned, in the hydraulics industry an accumulator is defined as in the following link. Incidentally, I once owned a Thunderbird that had an electric power brake pump. They used an "accumulator" (Ford's usage) to provide a couple of brake activations if you lost power.

http://hydraulicspneumatics.com/other-technologies/chapter-16-accumulators

 

[Bwanabud]

As in your Thunderbird accumulator, that is a "sealed" system...the same fluid is cycled though the system, the accumulator "holding/storing" the excess. The Blumat or typical expansion tank is not a sealed system, new fluid(water/nutes)is added to the system when a given volume is used.

It may be semantics, but your own descriptions define a accumulator as known to the engineering/mechanical world

 

[rives]

It may be semantics, but your own descriptions define a accumulator as known to the engineering/mechanical world

Yep, that would be my world......

 

[Bwanabud]

Yep, that would be my world......

Then we may have crossed paths my friend

Either way the Shurflo "accumulator" fluid capacity of 2-4 oz. is a joke is you're running a sizable room. I'll stand by my statement that the gentleman with 100 plants per system will be very disappointed in the mechanical operation of stock accumulator/pump system.

Just think about it, 100 plants in 2-3 gallon pots(mine are 5 gal. Promix)with a 2-4 oz fluid capacity...that the pump runs every 15# approx. pressure drop. Increasing pressure won't add significant volume to stated capacity size(max 40# rating).

 

[Ez Rider]

Am I the only one who smells bullshit?

 

[Bwanabud]

Am I the only one who smells bullshit?

Whaaat ? !!! Why in the world would I lie, and why would you say that ?

Manufacturer specifications are theirs, not my own fabrication.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwjLmuCJ8M_MAhWJdD4KHfKUB68QFghSMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.depcopump.com%2Fdatasheets%2Fshurflo%2F182-200%2520Installation%2520manual.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFEYGObinSRGYL8twwEjCkM1lewkw&cad=rja

Obviously you don't understand how pressurized systems work, just because you jury rigged some stuff off of Amazon doesn't mean it will work for others grow styles. Pump sizing has ZERO to do with system capacity, a larger pump doesn't give you more water...nor decrease cycles.

I'm running 32 plants with the 26oz accumulator and a 3gpm demand pump. The pump cycles for less than 3 seconds every 10-20min depending on conditions. It's been running for over 3 months with no issues. I plan on replacing the pump/accumulator bi-annually, whether it needs it or not. The pump and accumulator are both guaranteed for 3 years in any event. I'm confident I could run twice and many drippers with no issue besides the pump cycling every 5-10min instead of 10-20. YMMV.

Your own post states the cycle time for 60 plants would be every 5 minutes, and that's obviously not a timed/factual statement...you're running smaller pots & less plants than some of us, so mileage may massively vary. And your own pump 3 second run time tells you the "accumulator" is too SMALL !

Ez,, I'll patiently wait for your apology, to insult me when I provided facts and specs is unnecessary drama.

 

[rives]

Semantics aside, Bwana is correct about the pump run time.

I have no experience with running a pressurized system, but from strictly an electrical viewpoint, the optimum run time for an electric motor is normally a minimum of several minutes. Pumps are very low inertia and are frequently submerged, both of which earn you some leeway on run time, but typically an electric motor can pull several hundred percent current while it is accelerating up to speed. This heat then needs to be dissipated by the designed-in cooling after it is fully up to speed. Extending your run time, whether it be via a larger accumulator; adjusting the cut-in, cut-out pressures; or running a smaller volume pump should extend the life of the pump.

 

[Ez Rider]

Whaaat ? !!! Why in the world would I lie, and why would you say that ?

Manufacturer specifications are theirs, not my own fabrication.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwjLmuCJ8M_MAhWJdD4KHfKUB68QFghSMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.depcopump.com%2Fdatasheets%2Fshurflo%2F182-200%2520Installation%2520manual.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFEYGObinSRGYL8twwEjCkM1lewkw&cad=rja

Obviously you don't understand how pressurized systems work, just because you jury rigged some stuff off of Amazon doesn't mean it will work for others grow styles. Pump sizing has ZERO to do with system capacity, a larger pump doesn't give you more water...nor decrease cycles.



Your own post states the cycle time for 60 plants would be every 5 minutes, and that's obviously not a timed/factual statement...you're running smaller pots & less plants than some of us, so mileage may massively vary. And your own pump 3 second run time tells you the "accumulator" is too SMALL !

Ez,, I'll patiently wait for your apology, to insult me when I provided facts and specs is unnecessary drama.

All I can say is my system works just fine. That's my measure of success. Maybe they measure success differently at NASA? Saying my setup is "jury rigged" is just more bullshit. A guy who puts 2 accumulators inline and expects ANYTHING(except the same thing) to happen has no business criticizing anyone else's knowledge.LOL. Why on earth would I owe you an apology?

Semantics aside, Bwana is correct about the pump run time.

I have no experience with running a pressurized system, but from strictly an electrical viewpoint, the optimum run time for an electric motor is normally a minimum of several minutes. Pumps are very low inertia and are frequently submerged, both of which earn you some leeway on run time, but typically an electric motor can pull several hundred percent current while it is accelerating up to speed. This heat then needs to be dissipated by the designed-in cooling after it is fully up to speed. Extending your run time, whether it be via a larger accumulator; adjusting the cut-in, cut-out pressures; or running a smaller volume pump should extend the life of the pump.

I'd say the pump run time is more indicative of the pump being to big, not the accumulator being too small. Semantics, I know. On average, the accumulator empties ~4x/hr. I was concerned about feed solution sitting for extended periods, in a pressurized atmosphere. I don't exactly know why, but I just don't like the notion. I run a small pond pump 15min/2hr to keep my rez mixed. I didn't see a way to do this with a larger, less frequently draining accumulator. Also, I'm in my house, not a warehouse. Space is at a premium. At 3gp, I'd need an accumulator with a 15gal capacity to run for several minutes. Considering the size of a 4oz fluid capacity accumulator, a 15gal would be the size of a volkswagon! I'm looking for a lower gpm demand pump as a replacement, but I did get an "industrial" model, which shurflo says is better suited to the short cycles(I asked) than the rv/marine pumps. 3yr extended warrany cost $5. I'm not too worried about it reaching the 2 year life I'm giving it. If anyone knows of an ~45psi, >1gpm demand pump, I'd like a link.

 

[Bwanabud]

Ez, disappointing really..
The more you ramble the clearer your incertitude. Dual expansion tanks are used regularly in series, it's good sense for domestic water...if a tank goes bad you close the valve, and still have an operational system + it doubles holding capacity.

My father always said:
1)"Close your mouth and open your ears, you'll learn a lot more"
2)"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt"

“Never ruin an apology with an excuse.”
― Benjamin Franklin

 

[Ez Rider]

Ez, disappointing really..
The more you ramble the clearer your incertitude. Dual expansion tanks are used regularly in series, it's good sense for domestic water...if a tank goes bad you close the valve, and still have an operational system + it doubles holding capacity.

My father always said:
1)"Close your mouth and open your ears, you'll learn a lot more"
2)"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt"

“Never ruin an apology with an excuse.”
― Benjamin Franklin

What if I don't wan't double the accumulator capacity? We're not running domestic water, we're running blumats. You said you put them inline to decrease pump cycling. Exactly how did you expect this to happen? You could put 50 accumulators inline, and outside of the initial fill up time, pump cycling won't be affected at all. I'm not uncertain about anything except why you continue to naysay and put down a proven system. Actually, considering that you've ignored every question I've asked, while continuing to talk shit, I'm pretty certain you just like to run your corksucker. Sanctimonious, condescending douchebags have no place on canna boards. No excuses and no apologies.

 

[Bwanabud]

What if I don't wan't double the accumulator capacity? We're not running domestic water, we're running blumats. You said you put them inline to decrease pump cycling. Exactly how did you expect this to happen? You could put 50 accumulators inline, and outside of the initial fill up time, pump cycling won't be affected at all. I'm not uncertain about anything except why you continue to naysay and put down a proven system. Actually, considering that you've ignored every question I've asked, while continuing to talk shit, I'm pretty certain you just like to run your corksucker. Sanctimonious, condescending douchebags have no place on canna boards. No excuses and no apologies.

Wow, your reading comprehension needs some work EZ.

I actually said I installed the accumulator and full system as spec'd by Blumat, then added a second accumulator,,,then removed both and designed a better set-up.

You're far beneath my pay grade to banter foolish barbs with, do some reading and come back fully informed...obviously I have nothing to possibly offer you in advice. I certainly hope none of the members with bigger grows are naive enough to follow your advice, for it will cost them money & operation efficiency in the end.

Keep your name calling to the riff-raff social forums, my fluency in vulgarity will easily out match yours.

 

[Ez Rider]

Wow, your reading comprehension needs some work EZ.

I actually said I installed the accumulator and full system as spec'd by Blumat, then added a second accumulator,,,then removed both and designed a better set-up.

You're far beneath my pay grade to banter foolish barbs with, do some reading and come back fully informed...obviously I have nothing to possibly offer you in advice. I certainly hope none of the members with bigger grows are naive enough to follow your advice, for it will cost them money & operation efficiency in the end.

Keep your name calling to the riff-raff social forums, my fluency in vulgarity will easily out match yours.

Your arrogance, while astounding, is neither impressive nor convincing. I know for a FACT that several members are using systems like mine, long term, with no trouble. I also question your vaunted knowledge. You keep nattering about the pump never shutting off. Based on my experience, I'd have to have ~320 plants/carrots going to even have a chance of the pump running 1x/minute. I'm at 32 pots/carrots. They all drip a a slow, steady rate, pretty much 24/7. I'd say 1 drip, every 5-10 seconds per pot. At that rate, I think container size is irrelevant. The pump cycles every 10-20 min for ~3 seconds with 32 plants. So, giving you the benefit of the doubt, 320 plants would still only make the pump cycle once every minute for ~3 seconds, which I admit, may be a problem(overheat), but I still seriously doubt it. Since I'm not running 320 plants, it's not even a concern. If I was running more plants, I'd put 2 or more accumulator/pressure reducer rigs in parallel after the demand pump, but then I'm not a Wiley Coyote, Super Genius like you

 

[dansbuds]

The measurement that you want for finding the head pressure is to the water surface, not the bottom of the bucket, and the minimum recommended is 3' from the spike to the water surface. You should be good unless you have very long runs of the 8mm line.

If you can keep the upper rez from fluctuating more than a couple of inches it would be best. I use an 1-1/4" return line to insure that there is no possibility of an overflow, and just run the lift pump on a digital timer.

View Image

wow 1 1/4" return line ! i was thinking 3/4" because i'll use a 1/2" line to feed the bucket ....... not enough ??? should i go bigger on the 2 lines ?

the 8mm line will only be a few feet from the tray , so it won't be to long .

& my 4' measurement is from the bottom of the 5 gallon rez to the top of my pots . so by going with the top of the rez , i actually have 5' of head pressure .

Thank you EZ & Rives !!!

 

[Bwanabud]

Your arrogance, while astounding, is neither impressive nor convincing. I know for a FACT that several members are using systems like mine, long term, with no trouble. I also question your vaunted knowledge. You keep nattering about the pump never shutting off. Based on my experience, I'd have to have ~320 plants/carrots going to even have a chance of the pump running 1x/minute. I'm at 32 pots/carrots. They all drip a a slow, steady rate, pretty much 24/7. I'd say 1 drip, every 5-10 seconds per pot. At that rate, I think container size is irrelevant. The pump cycles every 10-20 min for ~3 seconds with 32 plants. So, giving you the benefit of the doubt, 320 plants would still only make the pump cycle once every minute for ~3 seconds, which I admit, may be a problem(overheat), but I still seriously doubt it. Since I'm not running 320 plants, it's not even a concern. If I was running more plants, I'd put 2 or more accumulator/pressure reducer rigs in parallel after the demand pump, but then I'm not a Wiley Coyote, Super Genius like you

Do you actually READ what you TYPE ?, or just call names and insult people ?

Wow, just wow

PS:The pressurized system was invented loooong before Blumat came along, the basic principles haven't changed in efficient operation. Everyone should size pump/expansion tank accordingly based on grow style/pot size/total consumption, anyone that believes a 2-4 oz. fluid capacity can effectively feed/water a medium/large grow space...is either delusional/stoned/crazy.