Blumat auto watering

[Maj.Cottonmouth]

Has anyone tried running their blumats on a pump instead of an elevated res? I will be rebuilding my room in the nearish future and I have been pondering running a pump to pressurize the lines instead of an elevated res and I am looking for some feedback. The only real downsides I am coming up with are possibly heating the nute solution from the constant pressure pump and power outages. I can deal with power outages with a UPS and I do see some upsides, the main one being constant higher pressure. I can also run a lot less of the 8mm tube than my original plan calls for. Your feedback is greatly appreciated.

 

[rives]

I briefly toyed with the idea, but the problems that I saw included -

1) As you mentioned, the pump running all of the time is going to heat the nutrient solution.

2) Most pumps are going to sustain cavitation damage from running throttled all the time.

3) The pump cavitating is going to create air bubbles and force them into the feed lines, resulting in vapor lock.

I think that the pump/accumulator method that weed, killer mentioned in post #4083 is the best way to accomplish this.

 

[dr-dank]

Just a rambling update....

The good:

Over all BMs are working and I'm using far less water/nutes then I was. The plants seem to be doing ok.

The bad:

Overall things are a bit flaky. I could not see trusting this for 10 days while I was away, but unattended operation was not main motivation.

Out of 9 plants I seem to always find a few that are too dry (pots are light) or they have run off. One day I get virtually no run off, the next I might wake to see 2 gallons have drained. But only a few of teh 9 are problematic at any time, the rest seem fine (moist and no run off). I make a small adjustment and seems like the problem moves, but make take more than a day before the new issue manifest.

IOW, its not always the same plant. A few times I have seen air bubbles in carrots and refill/soak, most times not. I check often so the pots don't dry to extent that carrot is depleted. On a few cases I reset by hand watering, repacking carrot, and re-adjusting.

I am using gravity feed, with lower res. The 5G bucket is ~ 8 feet above the emitters. Pressure is pretty good and should be pretty consistent.

It is the runaway state that concerns the most. If my res drains on day one the plants would not last long.... and my recirculating pump will be running dry.

I have 3 working ideas as to what might be causing these issues. Comments welcome.

1. air bubbles:
I do have an air stone in the top res. Experienced users warned this can inject bubbles. I have a vent at the res output. I sometimes draw/drain from the loop, and same users have reported that the vent can be sucked down to inject air defeating its purpose.

I can see where air could lead to dry pot via blocked 3mm, which in turn leads to the carrot being sucked dry, and then a flood when things are bleed out. I seems to have a different fail mode, one where the pot seems a tad dry, so I adjust a c-hair (2-3 hash marks), only to then find major run-off the next day and the dripper still dripping. This would seem more like air in carrot than in line... But again, I check and generally see no bubbles. When I adjust the drips stop, so the carrot still seems responsive.

2. Slanted surface and carrot positioning

I have an issue with getting a tray to drain and have some spacers under it. This can cause the pot to be tilted. I do move things around and suspect I may leave the dripper downhill from the sensor. I have been trying to make sure than any titled pots have sensor downhill from the dripper but so far not a panacea. I do believe in at least some cases this was my problem.


3. Root bound/perlite in coco
I added the BMs to established plants. Many too big for the small pots. I am also using ~20 perlite mixed into coco. In some case it was very hard to insert the spike, and no room to surround with fresh coco unless I wanted to dig up roots. I can see where the moisture onion would vary between a freshly potted plant vs a root bound/established one.


Given the random nature of the problem modes I see it may well be a combination of all the above.

Thanks for sharing any thoughts.

 

[rives]

They should be working better than that for you.

Recirculating pump? How is this set up, and are you running it full time? I use a circulation pump to stir up the lower rez, but only kick it on while the lift pump to the upper rez is running (twice a day, 5 minutes each time).

Any air bubbles are going to screw you, and the air stone isn't needed. I've been running for 5 years now without one. The vent on the outlet is, I think, worthless. I still run one but it is because the vertical riser is clear tubing and it functions as a sight gauge to check the juice level. I used the same setup when I was having tremendous air lock problems, and it didn't help a bit for getting air out. With that setup, you can only open your drain loop partway (less than half) before the water level will drop below the reservoir outlet and you pull air into the feed loop. Put a clear piece on and monitor it when you are using the drain - it'll scare the shit out of you. I think that under runaway conditions, the flow can possibly get high enough to do the same thing.

An adjustment of 2-3 hash marks is the MAXIMUM that you can go without overshooting the setting that you want. The adjustment is touchy as hell. If the pot is too light over a period of a couple of days, move the cap a couple of marks and wait a couple of days. As an initial setting, the bottom of the cap should be pretty close to being flush with the top of the pointer, mine are invariably in this region (see picture). Once you get a plant happy, mark the spot with white-out. The setting will transfer from one plant to another with damn good accuracy.

The more that you fuck around with the carrot, the more trouble you are going to have. Trying to go into established plants is much more difficult than installing the Blumats at transplant. If you can, you need to keep big chunks of perlite away from the spike. I use straight coco to pack the hole, insert & remove the spike, and pack it again. The longer that the carrot is in place, the better the fit will be with the media and the better the Blumat will work.

It sounds to me like the problem is probably the air in your feed lines initially, not the spike. What I've found is that the Blumat still functions as air gets into the spike, but the response gets more sluggish from the air acting as a dampener. It's basically air in a hydraulic system - liquids aren't compressible, but air is. I had problems that sound very similar when I was running a self-topping reservoir. Our tap water has lots of entrained air in it, and I think what was happening was I would get a vapor lock in the feed line. The Blumat then opens up as far as it can and the spike starts losing moisture from the media drying. At some point, the air bubble shifts and the line starts to flow, but the spike has lost moisture and can't respond in a reasonable period. Runaway!

I can't help with tilted pots, I've never used them that way.

Good luck!

 

[dr-dank]

Thanks Rives.

To be clear, its working pretty well. I am here all the time and admit I've gotten a bit obsessed about checking state, more than I need to. Its really amazing when I check and find all is well and there is nothing for me to do, and that I have saved all that water and nute mix.


The titled pots are BS that I need to address . I simply mention as most systems are setup to drain and depending on degree of slant this could be a factor in the sensor feedback loop. My plywood platform had warped and when I tore things apart I reversed it thinking over time it would warp back straight. That has led to the current state of some pots being at an angle that is far too severe. So far taking care to position sensor on the downhill side is working. Its an easy thing to forget and one less factor I should have to deal with for sure.

The last 24 hours has went perfect. All pots heavy and hardly any run off.

As to the questions and feedback:

I will ditch the stone from upper res. Might run it in the lower. Its warm here and I really worry about nasties setting up shop.

I have 5G up top that is kept filled from a 2G bucket down below. I have a pump that runs for 10 m, 7 times a day. This should aerate as well, I know...

I like the idea of the clear vent tubing. Will acquire some. I was debating with my friend about the water column drawing down and he was skeptical. Proof will be in the seeing. When I open the 8mm drain its not like a great rush or lots of pressure, so will be surprised to see the vent column deplete. I like the sight glass aspect regardless.

After thinking I can see where small bubbles could lead to the issues I had attributed to root mass interfering with sensor . Bubble lodges, plant get dry, I adjust to open a bit more, which dislodges the bubble, but now I end up too wet a day later. Another down adjustment, repeat....

I only recently started using coco/perlite mix and plane to go back to pure coco and also try the smart pot approach.

I thank you again for taking the time to check in one me.

Regards

 

[rives]

I like the idea of the clear vent tubing. Will acquire some. I was debating with my friend about the water column drawing down and he was skeptical. Proof will be in the seeing. When I open the 8mm drain its not like a great rush or lots of pressure, so will be surprised to see the vent column deplete. I like the sight glass aspect regardless.

A couple of things on the this - if you are using the Blumat "barrel fitting" to feed your loop, it's inside diameter is considerably smaller than the tubing that fits over it. This restriction will choke the water flow and the unrestricted air fills the void. Additionally, air flows much more freely than water, particularly if the water has to flow around two 90's and the air has a straight shot. I even tried using an 8mm to 3mm adapter on the top of the vent tube to restrict the airflow (like tuning automotive vacuum controls before they all went electronic) and the problem is still there.

I hadn't given it any thought when I put the system together, but the clear tubing is an eye-opener and the physics behind it make sense when you think about it.

Keep us posted on what you find!

 

[dr-dank]

One thing I'm learning here, is to listen to Rives.

I converted over to some clear tubing. Fish tank air stone was what I had, a bear but was able to force it over the 8mm barb.

I am using the BM bulkhead fitting.

I can confirm the water column does draw down, rather abruptly, when I open the drain cock. My limited experimentation in this setup seemed to indicate that weather air is drawn in is a function of the degree og drain opening (and how quickly you get there) as well as the fill level of the res.

When the res was a little less than 1/2 full (I drained partly to do the cut-over), I could see the water column collapse into the T and assume air was coming in. It seemed to jump about 1/2 of its hight, and then slowly draw down from there.

With a full res I found the water column would always remain a few inches above the T. I tried opening/closing rapid/slow, and leaving open (had to bleed anyway), and the last few inches seemed pretty stable. Still, the full res indicating water column drops by 1/2 the instant I open the drain.

My system does not have great drain velocity. I could see where those with larger drain and non-BM tubing (which is larger IIRC), could have air suck in even with a full res.

Have also removed airstone.

Will keep posted.

Regards

 

[Dave Coulier]

Thanks Rives.

To be clear, its working pretty well. I am here all the time and admit I've gotten a bit obsessed about checking state, more than I need to. Its really amazing when I check and find all is well and there is nothing for me to do, and that I have saved all that water and nute mix.


The titled pots are BS that I need to address . I simply mention as most systems are setup to drain and depending on degree of slant this could be a factor in the sensor feedback loop. My plywood platform had warped and when I tore things apart I reversed it thinking over time it would warp back straight. That has led to the current state of some pots being at an angle that is far too severe. So far taking care to position sensor on the downhill side is working. Its an easy thing to forget and one less factor I should have to deal with for sure.

The last 24 hours has went perfect. All pots heavy and hardly any run off.

As to the questions and feedback:

I will ditch the stone from upper res. Might run it in the lower. Its warm here and I really worry about nasties setting up shop.

I have 5G up top that is kept filled from a 2G bucket down below. I have a pump that runs for 10 m, 7 times a day. This should aerate as well, I know...

I like the idea of the clear vent tubing. Will acquire some. I was debating with my friend about the water column drawing down and he was skeptical. Proof will be in the seeing. When I open the 8mm drain its not like a great rush or lots of pressure, so will be surprised to see the vent column deplete. I like the sight glass aspect regardless.

After thinking I can see where small bubbles could lead to the issues I had attributed to root mass interfering with sensor . Bubble lodges, plant get dry, I adjust to open a bit more, which dislodges the bubble, but now I end up too wet a day later. Another down adjustment, repeat....

I only recently started using coco/perlite mix and plane to go back to pure coco and also try the smart pot approach.

I thank you again for taking the time to check in one me.

Regards

Dr. Dank Ive been running Blumats nearly as our good friend Rives here and can offer a little bit of advice as well. Its good your trying to avoid run-offs. Even a little bit of run-off is too much though. The pots shouldn't feel heavy all the time as if you've just watered to container capacity. If the blumats are always keeping your rootball at container capacity, its too wet, ime. Im shooting for around 80-85% of CC myself. The pots should feel light enough that I almost feel like I should water, but I dont need to because blumats do it for me.

 

[Jhhnn]

Dr. Dank Ive been running Blumats nearly as our good friend Rives here and can offer a little bit of advice as well. Its good your trying to avoid run-offs. Even a little bit of run-off is too much though. The pots shouldn't feel heavy as if you've just watered to container capacity. If the blumats are always keeping your rootball at container capacity, its too wet, ime. Im shooting for around 80-85% of CC myself. The pots should feel light enough that I almost feel like I should water, but I dont need to because blumats do it for me.

My very limited experience tells me that you're right. I had trouble with too heavy soil mixes in plastic pots so I went to a better mix & fabric pots set on plastic eggcrate in the saucers. Once the initial heavy watering started to fade & before the plants overwhelmed the space, when they were small, I'd tip up the pot & feel for moisture on the bottom of the fabric yet only maybe a hint of moisture in the saucer. I dialed that in w/ very small adjustments. The soil at the top out around the edge of 5 gal pots is actually dry maybe a couple of inches deep but the center at the dripper is quite moist.

Most of all, I just pay attention to the plants. They're absolutely vibrant & full of life. Blumats are a big part of that.

 

[Dave Coulier]

My very limited experience tells me that you're right. I had trouble with too heavy soil mixes in plastic pots so I went to a better mix & fabric pots set on plastic eggcrate in the saucers. Once the initial heavy watering started to fade & before the plants overwhelmed the space, when they were small, I'd tip up the pot & feel for moisture on the bottom of the fabric yet only maybe a hint of moisture in the saucer. I dialed that in w/ very small adjustments. The soil at the top out around the edge of 5 gal pots is actually dry maybe a couple of inches deep but the center at the dripper is quite moist.

Most of all, I just pay attention to the plants. They're absolutely vibrant & full of life. Blumats are a big part of that.

Although I no longer run fabric containers, I used to do the same exact thing too. Now that Im on plastic pots again, I just stick my pinky into the drain holes of each to gauge the moisture occasionally.

The second bold is utterly correct! Plant observation tell us so much if we listen to them. One thing to look for after transplanting to blumats, is to look for yellowing lower leaves or leaf abscission. If I have the medium too wet for too long after blumat transplant, I get a moisture-induced N deficiency and leaf abscission. If I end up with a large enough dry spot, because I dont have the blumat tweaked right, I get N deficiency again. Its typically worse when the medium is too dry rather than too wet.

 

[LostInEthereal]

Well folks, here's some more proof that it works

I just set these up a few days ago (maybe a week ago already?), and here's a shot of my main two plants BM:

I know in that last photo it looks like salt build up, and it probably is. I couldn't see with my eyes but the flash revealed it. Plan to hand-water in some +size (just switched to V+B and straight tap) so I'll flush 'em then.

Thanks for all the help everyone. Such an invaluable thread, it really ought to be stickied..

 

[marmarb]

do you think that drip clean will help deal with the salt build up i have a bunch of these that im going to be setting up soon.

 

[Madlabscientist]

i need too look into running these Blumats

 

[Jhhnn]

do you think that drip clean will help deal with the salt build up i have a bunch of these that im going to be setting up soon.

There' no runoff, so it won't make any difference.

Well, at least I can't see how it might.

 

[LostInEthereal]

Yeah, Jhnnn makes a good point. With zero run-off, where can the salt go (unless perhaps all absorbed by the plant, seems unlikely though)? Also, the MSDS lists the some of the same ingredients used in other chemical nutrients. And I'm using it at the suggested 0.4mL/Gal in these photos. But bear in mind, I'm using really hard water (0.7EC ~330ppm) and running V+B at 1.8 in the reservoir. I got hard water build up on anything that touches water at this at this place.

 

[Jhhnn]

I can't speak for the hydro guys, but the salt level in Denver water is moderate to low, overwhelmingly calcium & magnesium so buildup in organic soil might become a problem only through repeated recycling. For soil growers w/ super hard water, a float valve/ reservoir system compliments a RO system entirely. RO water is produced entirely on demand from the float valve. The RO system just needs to have the GPD capacity to keep the reservoir topped off.

 

[rives]

do you think that drip clean will help deal with the salt build up i have a bunch of these that im going to be setting up soon.

Yes, I do and it does.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2981091&postcount=1

 

[Jhhnn]

Yes, I do and it does.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2981091&postcount=1

Learn something all the time. I'm sure it helps keep the lines clear, but you still have to flush or discard the media periodically, correct?

 

[rives]

Learn something all the time. I'm sure it helps keep the lines clear, but you still have to flush or discard the media periodically, correct?

No, not really. I use coco, which is reportedly a bit more sensitive to buildup problems than other media and I've not had any issues with normal usage. I do flush my mom's about every 9 months or so, and I discard the media after 3 or 4 flowering runs, but that is more because the texture changes from the strands breaking down after a while.

 

[marmarb]

question i normally use aqua flakes as my base with a few additives mainly fox farm powered bloom booster ie cha ching beastie bloom and open sesame however now im in the market for a new base thinking about either going with 6/9 just because its so simple and should work great with the blumats and will allow me to run just one tank and top feed additives or try canna coco as i already use there canna boost which is really good or stay with good ole aqua flakes they only thing with the aqua flakes is i never go over 5ml with them even in full bloom and i think thats the reason that my yields have been kinda suffering or not near what they should be.