any kiss users have exp. with veg+bloom

[TheBioMaster]

Stuff is a SOLID product for sure! And Chris is a super nice guy and knows his shit for sure!

At about up to 600PPM it acts like a veg formula, and up at about 800PPM it acts like a bloom plus PK booster formula. This guy put lots of time and research into this product I can tell you for sure. It contains all the goodies like aminos and many other things not listed on the label. It is for sure a complete nutrient.

If you do decide to use a booster with it in flower, use 25% of your normal dose. Go very easy and you can "tweak" it with just about any bloom booster you want to use.

I highly suggest you at least do one full run with JUST the veg+bloom product before you decide to add boosters. You will see you do not need them at all.

The down side to this stuff is that to get the ammonia free formula or a custom mix you have to buy at least 10lbs.

The price is very much well worth what he is asking.

Solid Product!!

 

[cyat]

usin 4 tblsn per 5 gal now any less than 3 and they go deficient , in coco,farms,and dirt/d.e

1/4 tsp per gal in coco they will be stunted

 

[TheBioMaster]

What EC/PPM level are you running at?

I would look at that and what the plants look like as opposed to go by any certain amount per gallon like a table spoon , ect.

It is important that you reach a certain "target" EC/PPM level for the nutrient to work properly.

This EC/PPM level amount will vary depending on the source water used. For example one grower had tap water as high as 400PPM, and during flowering when he mixed the Veg+Bloom he would end up around 1400PPM (.5 x500) or more when he added enough Veg+Bloom to reach 1000PPM.

Another grower was using RO water at 0PPM and he would end up running lower EC/PPM values because of this. So in his case during flowering he would mix enough veg+bloom to make 1000PPM.

If you do not reach the target EC/PPM levels at the appropriate time in the plants cycle you would not gain all the benefits from using this product. The exception to all this is when the plant shows signs of burns as some plants as we know are more "sensative" to nutrient concentrations.

Hope that made some sense...lol

PS- Your plants are looking VERY awesome!!! I would say you are for sure doing some things right!!! VERY nice work cyat and to netrophet as well. MOST excellent, you guys have some great skills and it shows (killer genetics as well)!!

 

[YosemiteSam]

so biomaster...how come the label is not complete?

 

[TheBioMaster]

so biomaster...how come the label is not complete?

It has to do with laws and regulations that are enforced and also sometimes different from state to state and also keeping the complete recipe a "secret".

MANY if not ALL nutrient brands do not list all that is in the formula on the label. Take Roots Excel for example, lots of folks would like to know the secret to that formula. House & Garden also does not list any calcium percentages on its Aqua Flakes label and I think the same is true on the Soil/Coco formulas yet the coco formula for example has like 12% calcium in it if memory serves.

Check out some Advanced Nutrients labels in certain states says nothing of all its wonderful contents.

So it is not uncommon at all to NOT see everything on the label.

Colorado state law for example is as follows:

• A guaranteed analysis must be given for every fertilizer material sold in Colorado.
• The analysis includes the percentages of nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium and other plant nutrients present in quantities large enough to conform to state law.

The Colorado fertilizer law requires that the guaranteed analysis of every fertilizer material sold in the state be given on the face or display side of the container. The guaranteed analysis provides the percentage of nitrogen (N), available phosphorus (expressed as percent P2O5), water soluble potassium (expressed as percent K2O) and other nutrients present in quantities that conform to state law.

Notice the "Present in quantities that conform to state law" clause there?


Now Florida state law might be completely different or have other requirements as would California and other states depending on several factors.

These state laws mostly say if an ingredient is not in a high enough percentage it can NOT go on the label. Well sometimes you might need only a little small percentage of a ingredient to go in the particular formula your selling. So it would get forced off the label in that case.

Whats a nutrient company to do to satisfy them ALL with out having to make a different label for each state it is planned to be sold in?? You make a "generic" type label that list the essentials to satisfy the various state label law requirements.

 

[YosemiteSam]

On the other hand someone like me would look at that label and think...that ain't even complete let alone "special". Then again I think the same about H&G and AN...especially H&G...they claim a bunch of Ca on the phone but if you look at the derived from section you cannot hit those Ca levels with the ingredients listed...makes me think they are liars whose product I want nothing to do with.

I am a less is more guy...I do not want a bunch of stuff the plant may or may not use in there...say sugar and aminos. Anything that jacks up the EC with no real benefit is a negative in my mind...transpiration is a powerful tool that people tend to totally fuck up with useless additives.

but anyway...good luck with it. I really do love the Ca:Mg ratio. It would need a bit more ammoniacal nitrogen to work with the alkalinity of my water though.

 

[dansbuds]

Stuff is a SOLID product for sure! And Chris is a super nice guy and knows his shit for sure!

At about up to 600PPM it acts like a veg formula, and up at about 800PPM it acts like a bloom plus PK booster formula. This guy put lots of time and research into this product I can tell you for sure. It contains all the goodies like aminos and many other things not listed on the label. It is for sure a complete nutrient.

If you do decide to use a booster with it in flower, use 25% of your normal dose. Go very easy and you can "tweak" it with just about any bloom booster you want to use.

I highly suggest you at least do one full run with JUST the veg+bloom product before you decide to add boosters. You will see you do not need them at all.

The down side to this stuff is that to get the ammonia free formula or a custom mix you have to buy at least 10lbs.

The price is very much well worth what he is asking.

Solid Product!!

What EC/PPM level are you running at?

I would look at that and what the plants look like as opposed to go by any certain amount per gallon like a table spoon , ect.

It is important that you reach a certain "target" EC/PPM level for the nutrient to work properly.

This EC/PPM level amount will vary depending on the source water used. For example one grower had tap water as high as 400PPM, and during flowering when he mixed the Veg+Bloom he would end up around 1400PPM (.5 x500) or more when he added enough Veg+Bloom to reach 1000PPM.

Another grower was using RO water at 0PPM and he would end up running lower EC/PPM values because of this. So in his case during flowering he would mix enough veg+bloom to make 1000PPM.

If you do not reach the target EC/PPM levels at the appropriate time in the plants cycle you would not gain all the benefits from using this product. The exception to all this is when the plant shows signs of burns as some plants as we know are more "sensative" to nutrient concentrations.

Hope that made some sense...lol

PS- Your plants are looking VERY awesome!!! I would say you are for sure doing some things right!!! VERY nice work cyat and to netrophet as well. MOST excellent, you guys have some great skills and it shows (killer genetics as well)!!

Thank you bio master for all this incredible info

 

[cyat]

YS, they can custom formulate for your water.

mine has extra ph adjusters to compensate for water hardness

3-4 tblspn per 5 gal brings my ph to about 6

there is a ton of white chunks at the bottom of my bucket every time I mix a batch.. it kinda sticks too the bucket too.. chris says its ca from my tap, not the nutrient?

 

[cyat]

thanks biomaster, yeah this strain is frosty as hell no matter what you feed it...

not sure if this can beat pbp and monster bloom combo, I used before?

def winning over dutchmaster tho

not sure if I like all the nitrogen in flower, finishing up soon, we'll see

 

[bushdoctor215]

I gave this product a go on a few of my plants. In my strong light/co2 garden the plants were starving at 5 grams per gallon in soiless. That ruined it for me price wise compared to what I usually run. Moms in lower light situation look outstanding at 3 grams per gallon though. Very healthy...

 

[YosemiteSam]

YS, they can custom formulate for your water.

mine has extra ph adjusters to compensate for water hardness

3-4 tblspn per 5 gal brings my ph to about 6

there is a ton of white chunks at the bottom of my bucket every time I mix a batch.. it kinda sticks too the bucket too.. chris says its ca from my tap, not the nutrient?

It is not the pH of my fert water that I worry one bit about...other than to make sure it is low enough so that stuff does not precipitate out on me like it is on you. Did they actually analyze the precipitate...or just make a guess that just so happens to make them look good in a bad situation. If you fill a glass with water does shit precipitate out of it in the time frame you are talking about?

What I worry about is the pH of the media itself. That is almost not influenced by the pH of your fert water at all. It is influenced by the alkalinity of your water plus any carbonate adds you made to your soil vs the amount of ammoniacal nitrogen you are using.

My control method is a Control Wizard stuck in one pot per grow. I monitor results daily and adjust the NH4/NO3 % in my ferts based on any trend I see. No store bought nute can do that for you.

My basic problem is this...if a company lies on the label that proves beyond any doubt whatsoever that they are liars. Do you really want to do business with liars...how do you know they formulated it any differently...or just told you they did...you know you are dealing with a liar.

Its like a relationship. The first lie that is caught is always the end of trust. The end of trust is the end of the relationship one way or another. Yea it can drag on for a while...but is it the same?

I am old enough I have learned that lesson the hard way a couple of times. I ain't ever gonna let myself be in that kind of shit again. Tell me the truth or step the fuck off.

 

[TheBioMaster]

I seriously doubt the company has anything to gain from telling lie's to you, seriously dude. Number one they would not be around for long. Number 2 there are state regulations that do just that, regulate things. Not all formula's are snake oil and they are all not liars either.

I really could care less if you use the product or not, but you should not go around telling people they are liars because you did not see all the ingredients on the label?? Really?? As I explained to you IN DETAIL there is a LEGIT reason for this and ALL nutrient companies have to deal with label issues from state to state. It has NOTHING to do with someone trying to get something over on you or lie to you.

And as far as a nutrient company being able to adjust your ammonia content on the fly?? Again.....really?? If you are needing to adjust your ammoniacal nitrogen content then you have other issues. From what you stated so far you have TA (total alkalinity) issues with your tap water. If your TA number is to high, no amount of ph down in the world (or ammoniacal nitrogen for that matter) will help you, or your plants I should say.

Also it IS the ph of your nutrient solution and what it contains that helps to determine the media ph. Have you ever heard of soaking rock wool for example in a solution ph'd to 5.5 before you use it with plants? This is to lower the ph of the media dude! There are several ways to control media ph.

Most ALL nutrient formulas use 25% ammoniacal nitrogen to make up the TOTAL amount of nitrogen content in the formula (some a little more some less depending on the type of nutrient it is). These amounts are based on over a 100+ years of agriculture research and studies done by universities around the world, but I am sure you know better.

Do you also account for the amount of nitrifying bacteria when you adjust the ammonia content in your solution?? You do know that all you do by adding more than 25% is risk a bacteria outbreak right??

I would strongly suggest you get a MUCH better understanding of water chemistry, and plant biology before you go around calling people liars.

 

[cyat]

I gave this product a go on a few of my plants. In my strong light/co2 garden the plants were starving at 5 grams per gallon in soiless. That ruined it for me price wise compared to what I usually run. Moms in lower light situation look outstanding at 3 grams per gallon though. Very healthy...

true, it takes a ton to get the ppms up.. im at 4 tbl per 5 gal in all mediums

at 1/4 tsp recomended to me for soil/coco, they were starving

its not cheap at all.

almost done with my 10 lbs

 

[TheBioMaster]

ooops...double post.

 

[YosemiteSam]

My tap water has an alkalinity of 50 ppm...pretty low. But it still needs around 15% ammoniacal nitrogen to maintain stable pH. And again, from your label there is no way in hell you have 25% ammoniacal...are you hiding something else? And if you are there is no way for you to have a Ca to Mg ratio of 3 to 1 unless you are using a CaNO3 that is way higher in Ca than any brand I have found...or you have an unlisted source for more Ca in there.

Nor did I say I expected a nute company to constantly adjust NH4 for me...what I said was no nute company can do that. You have to mix your own to do that. And if you have never seen media pH change by a few tenths late in the grow you have obviously never monitored it closely enough.

I give you the rock wool example. I was not thinking about that.

And yea, they are lying. Just like motherfuckers that sell GMO food without saying so on the label...legal in this country...but still a fucking lie

If I walked in a store and saw the product and read the label I would think it does not even have all of the micros it needs and I would move on...wouldn't you? Anyone that actually knows what a plant needs would.

And Cyat...did you have sedimentation with the nutes you used before these? If not...it ain't the water

Here is the thing. I actually admire the fact that you did not create a nute that needs a bunch of additives to be complete. I love your Ca to Mg ratio if it is in fact correct. If your label was the truth I would probably suggest people that like Maxibloom give this a look.

But fuck a lying label.

edit...also what does plant biology and water chemistry have to do with a label being correct? Not a thing...the label is either correct or it isn't. Yours isn't.

 

[Avenger]

If they don't "claim" it on the label, they don't have to guarantee it.

the only thing required to be guaranteed on the label is the Grade: N, P2O5, K2O.

Custom mixes are exempted from many of the labeling requirements.

 

[Avenger]

I can match the label exactly using the salts from their derived from list, except for the sulfur percentage. Using those listed salts, you actually have 14% combined sulfur.

can you say calcium sulfate precipitate?

 

[TheBioMaster]

USA and Canada are the ONLY 2 countries that do not require a GMO warning label on foods. ALL other countries except for the USA and Canada put a GMO warning label on GMO foods.

Now who is the liar exactly here yosemite just so I understand where your coming from?? You are one confused puppy huh??

I think you need to get a better source for your information my friend. Just some friendly advice.

PS- I have NOTHING to do with Veg+Bloom bro or its label or any other labels for that matter, we just tested the product extensively and I was just trying to spread FACTUAL information about the product. You have gotten this thread WAY off topic now several times with BS about lies and nutrient labels when clearly you know nothing about them.

This is where experience with water chemistry and plant biology comes into play. To be able to intelligently interpret the data on the label which you also clearly can not do by your comments and post. Because if you DID have a clue, you would not be calling people liars and instead would be able to understand what the data on the labels mean and why they are there and to what purpose they are suppose to serve which is NOT to tell you EVERY single ingredient that is in the formula. This is COMMON SENSE to most of us!!

 

[YosemiteSam]

I have never been accused of having a lot of common sense...so you got me there.

Still...you tell a guy on the phone that there are sugars and amino acids yet they are not on the label. water chemistry and plant biology aside I actually can read...they aren't there. A couple of micros are missing...right?

The label is misleading...how can you deny that? It is exactly the same deal as gmo labels in the USA and Canada

And lets test my water chemistry knowledge...no use guessing. The sediment on the bottom of that res is gypsum in my humble opinion. What you think?

 

[YosemiteSam]

I can match the label exactly using the salts from their derived from list, except for the sulfur percentage. Using those listed salts, you actually have 14% combined sulfur.

can you say calcium sulfate precipitate?

can you get 25% ammoniacal nitrogen?