alternatives to avid

[StankyBeamer]

Just an update, for anyone considering using the chems I tried, it worked extremely well. One spray of avid, one spray of tetrasan, and one feeling with kontos. The only mite I have seen since spraying was clearly mutated and dead. I'm comfortable that they're not gonna show up halfway through flowering, and have switched back to organics; a rotation of safer soap, pyrethrin, neem, and spinosad.

 

[expealadocious]

Frank is dead on with the brix idea...thats what ive been saying also..

Stanky, you ever hear of OG biowar??
Theres a place called planetnatural that sells affordable boxes of ladybugs also... even nematodes that eat root aphids...

 

[StankyBeamer]

For whatever reason, ladybugs never survive in my basement. Idk if it's the shitty ladybugs the hydrowhores, whoops I mean hydrostores have, or maybe it's all the pesticides I've used in the past, but I've cleaned and scrubbed most surfaces, and am only using organics now. Even ordered some pyrethrin with no pbo

 

[who dat is]

Frank is dead on with the brix idea...thats what ive been saying also..

Stanky, you ever hear of OG biowar??
Theres a place called planetnatural that sells affordable boxes of ladybugs also... even nematodes that eat root aphids...

I wasn't impressed with OG Biowar and is incredibly overpriced. The VAST majority of the pack is simply Talc.

 

[Mikell]

Expeal, this is a thread about conventional treatments

 

[dimebag_]

I notice a lot of talk of avid as the Holy grail of miticides, I was wondering why products like shuttle, judo, akari, and sanmite are seldom mentioned? Sanmite is one of the few that's effective against eggs as well as adults, almost all of them control nymphs. Seems like an application of avid, followed by an application of sanmite or floramite to clean up the eggs, then one more app of avid and you'd be good as long as you sprayed thoroughly. I know none of these Chems are too savory, but I believe in effective use so as to minimalize the amount needed. I dont feel like breeding super mites by just kicking a dead horse with pyrethrins, I'd like to supplement organic measures with a lipid biosynthesis inhibitor and a mitochondria electron transport inhibitor, so as to eradicate all life stages completely and also in a timely manner so as to resume flowering without too much delay after shutting down the flower room to clean everything up

Wassup dudes... I've been in the game for a little while. I got spider mites earlier this year from picking up clones from a clone dispensary I suppose-or mabe one just walked in. First time in like 9-10 years for me.

9-10 years ago there won't much out there to battle them efficiently, as far as I knew. Floramite had just come out. It works okay but is not 100% effective. I didn't used to look online for stuff or ask around either tho. Now I do.

I was told by my shop this year, and learned from researching that Avid and Forbid were the 2 best options, although they were made for commercial farming. Some people, like organic farmers, are over using it because they think it is toxic. It has a residual but I forget for how long exactly. Just a few weeks tho. It is gone by the time a whole bloom cycle is finished. I just use it up until bloom, so the plants don't have a trace of it when harvest time comes.

I guess hippies like using organic products and keeping the mites around. I know from experience that if you don't use something super strong, and kill them all, they will re-multiply and come back no problem. I have never seen an organic miticide work 100%. And I do try to stay as close as I can to using mostly organic nutes. But not for spider mites-no fukn way.

Forbid kills mites in every life stage, including eggs. It is translamic, which means that it will penetrate thru the top of the leaf surface to the underside. So, no need to spray top and bottom of leaves for full coverage. It isn't systemic, so plants will not uptake it. Avid might be translamic also, not positive. I also used a great product allied Ultimate Wash, by Mighty Wash for treating mites during flower. It is made for mites as well, but it a bit gentler and can be used up until harvest they claim. It is not 100% like Forbid tho. Forbid is pricey, but people break up the bigger bottle and sell small quantities online and in grow shops. It only uses 1ml per gallon so a little bit goes a long ways.

If I ever get mites again, which I don't plan on it, I will for sure use Forbid to solve the problem. I got rid of my mite problem this year with one round. Next round was bug free. I also bombed the room after harvesting with those TR Pyrethrin goal release bombs. They're pricey but effective for getting any stragglers. I also bought a grow tent to dry my infested plants far away from my garden. And I sprayed my trim as I cut the plants down, as well as the tops of the hangers, the box I trimmed into, the ground, and the outside of the tent. No bugs were gonna walk back to my room! I think for me, the tent is what made getting rid of them in one round possible.

In the past, I could only keep them at bay, but it was next to impossible to completely get rid of them, especially in summertime. They are a gnarly pest and grow immune to pesticides that are used over and over. I would alternate with Avid if I had a serious issue. But I can tell you that Forbid is 100% effective on killing those bastards. Probably Avid as well. I just haven't tested it. Anyways-hope this helps-fukn hate those damn webs they make....ha


dbag-

 

[StankyBeamer]

Yeah I'm not disagreeing with cocktail frank about plant health deterring pest problems, my problem is simply that once they are there, it's too late for all that, they're persistant motherfuckers, your plants might not suffer but there's still mites, and my bud gets lab tested for mildew spores, mite and thrips carcasses, AND residual pesticide, with the chems mentioned I have kept all three tests negative thus far. Abamectin halflife is relatively short when compared to things like imid. And the halflife of tetrasan is like 9 days with no trans laminar activity. So Im good with clearing all pests, switching to organic means, and watching my plants brix levels elevate on their own.

 

[StankyBeamer]

And the proof is under the microscope not in the pudding, brix levels or not a lab will notice mite eggs and skeletons at 200x

 

[expealadocious]

Yeah but I think what he's saying is that higher brix levels enhance immunity and the way to raise levels is through mineralizing soil

 

[StankyBeamer]

Okay but this is a thread about the efficacy of avid and other miticides, and whether or not their combination would be fully effective in eradication, which they were. Now is the time to keep plant health up and organic IPM flowing so they don't make it back in and reestablish

 

[expealadocious]

Yeah youre saying "bring plant health up" so... minerals... just a thought.
Later

 

[orechron]

Stanky, the brix centric methods come from big agriculture and work really well. Field trials with plants at near optimum health show that insects have trouble digesting complex sugars that plants produce when they have everything they need. The insects actually die from the fermentation products of the more complex sugars or the insecticidal activity of phytoalexins. Moreover, plants at peak health have different energy signatures than those with poor nutrition. Insect antennae are designed to find weak plants. It is worth delving into.

As far as miticides go, a friend has been looking into a product called Dr. Zymes. It contains citric acid and yeast fermentation products. I can't personally speak for its efficacy.

If you do go with the heavy hitters make sure to rotate. Avid -> Acari -> Pylon or something like that. Avid is nice though because its not as harsh as the others and is translaminar. Essential oils work too but you need complete coverage.

 

[StankyBeamer]

We can argue this back and forth all day, but I am in coco, therefore organics are not an option unless I switch back to soil, so mineral salts are a must to satisfy high cation exchange capacity, and I dont really consider the 1.0-1.2ec feeds my plans recieved to be excessively salty, nor do I consider hitting 2#'s a light to be a failing crop that attracted pests. My girlfriend did not shower and sterilize, so a mite made it in on her clothes, and reproduced, simple as that. With all the mineralized soil in the world, that mite still was introduced to a protected food source in a controlled climate. Brix levels are not going to kill it dead, they might keep it from trying extremely hard to make it inside on its own, but it was basically hand delivered to the plants. It's gonna reproduce. If you put a mite directly on a plant that is a known part of its diet and habitat, it's going to feed and reproduce, brix levels or not. Sick plants do attract pests, but when the pest brushes directly off your clothing, attraction to the plant has nothing to do with it,it was physically introduced, not attracted. So please expe, stop hijacking a thread that has nothing to do with organics with a bunch of talks about organics. I grow hydro. There is no way to incorporate compost amendments into coco/perlite without fucking up oxygen retention and drainage whilst having enough amendments present to satisfy cec of coco. Just not gonna happen. And I'm not going back to promix or sunshine, Deffinitely going nowhere near ffof with all the gnats.

 

[StankyBeamer]

Stanky, the brix centric methods come from big agriculture and work really well. Field trials with plants at near optimum health show that insects have trouble digesting complex sugars that plants produce when they have everything they need. The insects actually die from the fermentation products of the more complex sugars or the insecticidal activity of phytoalexins. Moreover, plants at peak health have different energy signatures than those with poor nutrition. Insect antennae are designed to find weak plants. It is worth delving into.

As far as miticides go, a friend has been looking into a product called Dr. Zymes. It contains citric acid and yeast fermentation products. I can't personally speak for its efficacy.

If you do go with the heavy hitters make sure to rotate. Avid -> Acari -> Pylon or something like that. Avid is nice though because its not as harsh as the others and is translaminar. Essential oils work too but you need complete coverage.

I used avid, tetrasan, and kontos, one single application each, about a month before transition to flower. Worked like a charm. I do try to keep my coco inoculated with bennies, which can be difficult, but I can't really amend, so my only means of increasing brix levels is to keep the rhizosphere happy, drainage on point, salt in check, and environment controlled.

 

[expealadocious]

I didnt realize you were in coce but... hijacking your thread??
Cmon dude. youre sure not easy to chat with are ya??
intelligent discussions are frowned upon I spose...

A mite on your girlfriends clothes...hilarious...
You can still raise brix with special foliar sprays in hydro so... so there.

Oh AND THE POINT is that it wont matter if you're "sterile" or not haha its not mycology... bugs dont eat high brix plants so their presence is irrelevant... without food they will die/leave.
If you ever go back to soil,try nematodes one time. They eat everything and multiply forward.

Mites .... the worst kind come from another grower. The ones from the wild are easy IMO.

Spray away man im out

 

[Mikell]

You just don't get it.

Off topic discussion is hijacking a thread. If you're unsure about the topic of this thread, refer to the thread title.

If you follow the mineral/brix crowd long enough you'll notice they deal with the same pests and disease as everyone else.

Intelligent discussion is welcome, but try to stay on topic. So far you've just butted in with a few tired statements of no relevance to the discussion at hand.

If you'd like to post any information in the RA thread to support your claim on nematodes, I would be glad to read it. Bearing in mind I put little faith in anecdotal evidence from isolated experiences (as a whole re: high levels of input there is merit).

I really hate to contribute to the hijacking but you can eliminate TSSM with almost anything, used correctly. My main pesticide is soap for Christ sakes. Throrough coverage and a hard line routine are all that's needed. Beyond a few thrips and aphids outdoors I live a pest free life.

Translaminar pesticides should still be sprayed full coverage, as per manufacturers instructions. To do otherwise is lazy/inept. This accounts for many failures with contact insecticides (even conventional) wherein user error = product fail.

Apologies J to the R O C, but I'm also pretty good at off topic.

 

[Weird]

One of the best non toxic alternatives to pesticides is horticultural mineral oil, certified for use in Wa organic programs.

The only catch is that it is application intensive, but when properly applied EXTREMELY effective. I like it more than neem oil for removing pests from plants permanently (though I still like neem oil as a preventative.

http://www.stylet-oil.com/Labels-i-29-13.html


Regardless of the safety according to label, i would avoid using ANY oil based treatment mid to late flower.

 

[orechron]

FWIW I did not reply to this thread to start an argument. I'm just throwing something out there that is relevant. If my reply was considered a hijack (was it mine or expealadocious'?) then I don't think I can contribute much else other than recommending a different product for you to spray.

There is truth in what I said though. The main one is that sick plants attract bugs more readily than healthy plants. And yes, high brix levels can deter or kill bugs. The killing point is very difficult to achieve because you have to have perfect soil. I don't yet, but I've certainly observed plants deterring them and in my experience it has less to do with genetics and almost everything to do with mineral nutrition. There is a user on here with the handle "Milkyjoe". Keep an eye out for the indoor plant pics he posts: the right color of green and a layer of natural wax on his leaves. He's used coco and soil and what I'm talking about shouldn't be viewed as organic hippy shit. I'm not organic.

One other thing to keep in mind is that the pH in your sap has much to do with how palatable the plant is to a mite. Bugs have alkaline guts and if the sap pH gets up toward 7.0-7.5, bug problems become more common.

For the time being though, I agree with Mikell and Weird that oils and soaps work well if used properly. Straight doctor Bronners is good even. This approach just requires more frequent spraying. Your trying to coat their bodies and suffocate them. Some stragglers almost always make it past one spray.

 

[Mick]

I was exactly the same until I joined ICMAG and read that its been recently ptoven to be systemic, Yeah..! the plants can drink that oil up, adding another 50%(imo) to its effectiveness
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=290297

just finding that post is a B!tch ...

Couldn't agree more. It works awesome.

 

[Weird]

neem oil or tea from neem cake will provide systemic results but they don't provide instant kill.

Neem does not effect any non plant sucking insects (the good guys like predator mites) but it might effect your balance of microbiology in LOS and I don't know how that pans out if your in a cycle or long term on recycled soil, would be interested to hear results.