Air condition more efficient ?

[Ttystikk]

Yes, that would work well.
If you are in a cold enough climate I would try to use a large water to air heat exchanger outside in the cold air and a smaller one in the grow. Both serviced off of the same rez. If you could get away with not using a refrigeration system, you could really save some money.


Here's a 22 x 22 from ebay for under 200 bucks.

This idea is bad ass, and it works until temps climb above sixty degrees. Be sure to use RV antifreeze in the lines of any system with components that go outside.

 

[Ttystikk]

And yes it's me what up! Just here to keep it real.

Hey bro! Yeah, I'm doing the same thing. Peep my thread bro, tell me what you think?

 

[budleydoright]

This idea is bad ass, and it works until temps climb above sixty degrees. Be sure to use RV antifreeze in the lines of any system with components that go outside.

I have always wanted to try this but don't know how to do the math to see how much surface area would be required. You could also have a refrigerant based chiller servicing the same rez to pick up any peak load. Running mostly at night, many of us could use this type of rig 8 mos out of the year.

You see I have tinkered and have had a few wet dreams!

Hydroinnovations came up with a compressor-less chiller but it's more $$ than a regular chiller.

 

[Ttystikk]

I did want to ask you about your ice boxes. Do you have 2 on lights and only one with the inline fan blowing down to the bucket? Whats your setup like?

Do you have any idea how much water you are collecting in the bucket(s)?

I'm in the design phase now and will run organic soil. I was planning on blowing down into a bucket with some activated charcoal and then a tube out of the room from there.

Thanks a lot

Um, there's a lot here that doesn't make sense to me. Are you running a sealed room? If not, why do you want climate control? If so, why are you trying to exhaust treated air? Why exhaust treated air in the first place?

The heat itself is transferred out of the air being blown through the radiator core- look at the pic above for a great example of one- and into the water passing through the tubing inside that same exchanger. How could odor pass through?

Now that you've treated the air by cooling and dehumidifying it, don't you want to keep it around instead of exhausting it? So maybe you don't need an inline carbon filter?

I'm just trying to understand what it is you want to do. There's no point in discussing the finer points of sealed room tech if that's not what you're looking for.

 

[Edo]

Yes, that would work well.
If you are in a cold enough climate I would try to use a large water to air heat exchanger outside in the cold air and a smaller one in the grow. Both serviced off of the same rez. If you could get away with not using a refrigeration system, you could really save some money.


Here's a 22 x 22 from ebay for under 200 bucks.

Thats a great idea. So the water would get cooled by the outside heat exchanger and you could push cold air in the rez for even better cooling.

In my area there are only 3 months with a average temperature over 60 F

 

[TooHighTider]

Um, there's a lot here that doesn't make sense to me. Are you running a sealed room? If not, why do you want climate control? If so, why are you trying to exhaust treated air? Why exhaust treated air in the first place?

The heat itself is transferred out of the air being blown through the radiator core- look at the pic above for a great example of one- and into the water passing through the tubing inside that same exchanger. How could odor pass through?

Now that you've treated the air by cooling and dehumidifying it, don't you want to keep it around instead of exhausting it? So maybe you don't need an inline carbon filter?

I'm just trying to understand what it is you want to do. There's no point in discussing the finer points of sealed room tech if that's not what you're looking for.

Yes a sealed room.

I wanted to use the same type of DIY chiller that budly uses made out of a window AC unit. If I remember correctly, he just has it sitting in another room with his res.

I want to have the DIY chiller in another room as well, but put it in a window so that the heat from it is evacuated from the house.

I haven't bought the window unit yet and wasn't sure about how the modified unit would keep hot air outside and cool air in.

I thought i would get a large enough window unit, modify it like budly did into a chiller, mount it in a window in one room and run water lines to the sealed grow room as well as the room that the window unit/DIY chiller is in and have a setup like yours with the inline fan blowing down through the ice box(s) to cool the sealed grow room as well as the room with the window unit/chiller.

I think I said earlier that I didn't want smell to get outside from the window with the modified window AC/chiller.

I just would like to cool both rooms with the window chiller and am not sure if modifying the window unit would not let me cool the room that the window unit was in because of air leakage.

 

[budleydoright]

Yes a sealed room.

I wanted to use the same type of DIY chiller that budly uses made out of a window AC unit. If I remember correctly, he just has it sitting in another room with his res.

I want to have the DIY chiller in another room as well, but put it in a window so that the heat from it is evacuated from the house.

I haven't bought the window unit yet and wasn't sure about how the modified unit would keep hot air outside and cool air in.

I thought i would get a large enough window unit, modify it like budly did into a chiller, mount it in a window in one room and run water lines to the sealed grow room as well as the room that the window unit/DIY chiller is in and have a setup like yours with the inline fan blowing down through the ice box(s) to cool the sealed grow room as well as the room with the window unit/chiller.

I think I said earlier that I didn't want smell to get outside from the window with the modified window AC/chiller.

I just would like to cool both rooms with the window chiller and am not sure if modifying the window unit would not let me cool the room that the window unit was in because of air leakage.

You could do exactly that if you have the tools and the r22 or r410. here's a converted unit from ebay.

You could also get the unit that reverses into a heater which would allow you to use your chiller as a water cooled AC unit.

I'm sure this would require some wiring.

 

[TooHighTider]

You could do exactly that if you have the tools and the r22 or r410. here's a converted unit from ebay.

You could also get the unit that reverses into a heater which would allow you to use your chiller as a water cooled AC unit.

I'm sure this would require some wiring.

I figured that I would just get an AC guy to do it for me. Off site of course.

How long did it take your friend to do the job or did you ever get to where you could do the brazing yourself?

Do they sell those units on ebay often? I looked for a minute and couldn't find that one on there. How did you search for it?

Thanks

 

[TooHighTider]

Hey Ttystikk,

Can you tell me how your ice boxes are set up?

Thanks

 

[budleydoright]

I figured that I would just get an AC guy to do it for me. Off site of course.

How long did it take your friend to do the job or did you ever get to where you could do the brazing yourself?

Do they sell those units on ebay often? I looked for a minute and couldn't find that one on there. How did you search for it?

Thanks

Get a quote on the labor and materials before you commit to DIY. You may exceed the cost of a pre built.

Took about an hour to do, he gave me the r22 and manifolds to ad the refrigerant while it was under a load.

Search for Aquarium Chillers and yes, this guys been doing them for years.

 

[Ttystikk]

Hey Ttystikk,

Can you tell me how your ice boxes are set up?

Thanks

Lol shit I wish my freakin' grow journal got this much traffic!

Fan on top blowing down through icebox mounted horizontally- that is, it's mounted flat and the air blows down from top to bottom. There's ducting beneath that to direct air and water droplets down. Water is caught and returned to RDWC, the air spreads around and repeats its heat cycle.

Never suck air through a cold icebox, always blow. Never blow air through a sealed and vented fixture, always suck. Don't believe me? Try it yourself. I did, grasped what was going on intuitively and now my stuff is all the more efficient for it.

Oh! How'd that get in there?!

 

[Ttystikk]

Yes a sealed room.

I wanted to use the same type of DIY chiller that budly uses made out of a window AC unit. If I remember correctly, he just has it sitting in another room with his res.

I want to have the DIY chiller in another room as well, but put it in a window so that the heat from it is evacuated from the house.

I haven't bought the window unit yet and wasn't sure about how the modified unit would keep hot air outside and cool air in.

I thought i would get a large enough window unit, modify it like budly did into a chiller, mount it in a window in one room and run water lines to the sealed grow room as well as the room that the window unit/DIY chiller is in and have a setup like yours with the inline fan blowing down through the ice box(s) to cool the sealed grow room as well as the room with the window unit/chiller.

I think I said earlier that I didn't want smell to get outside from the window with the modified window AC/chiller.

I just would like to cool both rooms with the window chiller and am not sure if modifying the window unit would not let me cool the room that the window unit was in because of air leakage.

Thanks, this clears things up a lot, and I can see where you're headed.

First, your window unit won't have any smell anywhere near it, since it's in another room- unless that room has smell in it, too. The water won't bring smell, so you are completely in the clear on that. If the room the website unit is sitting in also has smell, then completely seal the FRONT of the unit so no air can get inside. Since it's now a water chiller, this should be easier than it sounds.

Second, I've seen some tough n ready DIY where a guy just disassembled the from end of his AC unit, bent the copper lines holding the evaporator coil down so that it dunked in a water reservoir just in front of the unit! This would solve the need for opening the refrigerant loop at all, and the evap coil then bathes in water. Aim a return line from your circulation system across this core and you're set on the chiller side. Install a waterpump and build a manifold to send water to the different places it's needed, and insulate the top of the reservoir while taking care to keep the evap coil covered with water at all times.

My fucking pics are upside down and shit, but remember that fan is on top near the ceiling, blowing air down through icebox and then down through duct. Everything is 8".

You might consider making your chiller placement somewhat portable; in the summer, I stick my unit out the window like any good AC. In the winter, however, it sits INSIDE on a coffee table in my office/intake room. It warms this room and thus my whole home, all winter long! This strategy alone saves me an estimated thousand dollars a year in heating bills every season, and no reversing of the system is necessary.

 

[TooHighTider]

Get a quote on the labor and materials before you commit to DIY. You may exceed the cost of a pre built.

Took about an hour to do, he gave me the r22 and manifolds to ad the refrigerant while it was under a load.

Search for Aquarium Chillers and yes, this guys been doing them for years.

Cool, thanks a lot.

 

[TooHighTider]

Thanks, this clears things up a lot, and I can see where you're headed.

First, your window unit won't have any smell anywhere near it, since it's in another room- unless that room has smell in it, too. The water won't bring smell, so you are completely in the clear on that. If the room the website unit is sitting in also has smell, then completely seal the FRONT of the unit so no air can get inside. Since it's now a water chiller, this should be easier than it sounds.

Second, I've seen some tough n ready DIY where a guy just disassembled the from end of his AC unit, bent the copper lines holding the evaporator coil down so that it dunked in a water reservoir just in front of the unit! This would solve the need for opening the refrigerant loop at all, and the evap coil then bathes in water. Aim a return line from your circulation system across this core and you're set on the chiller side. Install a waterpump and build a manifold to send water to the different places it's needed, and insulate the top of the reservoir while taking care to keep the evap coil covered with water at all times.

My fucking pics are upside down and shit, but remember that fan is on top near the ceiling, blowing air down through icebox and then down through duct. Everything is 8".

You might consider making your chiller placement somewhat portable; in the summer, I stick my unit out the window like any good AC. In the winter, however, it sits INSIDE on a coffee table in my office/intake room. It warms this room and thus my whole home, all winter long! This strategy alone saves me an estimated thousand dollars a year in heating bills every season, and no reversing of the system is necessary.

That guy who built that diy unit that you saw is Budly. I saw it on another site. The unit that Budly has in his earlier post is his updated version.

You said that you had 3 ice boxes, right? Do you use only one in each room the way you have pictured?

Thanks a lot

I have learned so much on this site.

 

[Ttystikk]

That guy who built that diy unit that you saw is Budly. I saw it on another site. The unit that Budly has in his earlier post is his updated version.

You said that you had 3 ice boxes, right? Do you use only one in each room the way you have pictured?

Thanks a lot

I have learned so much on this site.

Heh heh well it's a good thing I admire his work, then...

Small world, lol

I used three Iceboxes, each with its own fan controlled by the environmental control unit in the room, to first cool 8kW in sealed n vented Magnum xxxl Ochos, and then to cool six bare bulbs in the same space. They were sufficient capacity for the first job, not so much for the second.

 

[DabOnDabs]

Tty,

You showed me this thread so I'm gonna post my input/comments. Interesting debate guys, and interesting read.

First; To answer Op's original question, and it's already been answered: The reason you dont see a ton of large grows running on forced air, is because it is a BITCH to control all of the variables. Outside temps fluctuate 5-10 degrees, inside variables change. Fans turn on more or less, humidity decreases or increases, co2 levels are all over the place. Its just unreliable. You leave for a couple days, and it gets really hot..Fans kick on more, humidity drops, VPD takes over, and when you come back you're dealing with bullshit. Large ops dont want to lose crops due to variables outside their control.

Can it be done? FUCK YA! I'm doing a forced air 12k op right now. Its ridiculously hard to dial, and temperatures/humidity are all over the place...BUT, constant and vigilant monitoring, as well as practice have taught me what I need to do to get it in the "ballpark"

As far as watercooling; Its not for me. I'm all for efficiency and what not, but the more flowing water in a growroom, the more potential problems you're gonna have. Now Ty, I'm not saying your wrong, or that its not fucking awesome that you WC. I'm just saying; I dab too much, I do retarted stuff, i forget small things, and yea..Water cooling just isnt for me.

similarly, as i understand it, wc is only beneficial to a crop that is grown horizontal with hoods. I may have a R+D room with hoods in the near future, but I'm barebulb till I die otherwise. Any cooling system set up in my place is gonna have to cool multiple 6K rooms. Not happening with water cooling. I'm sure I could get it done in the one room but why bother when i have to set up AC in the rest.

Simply put; it just doesnt work out for what I'm trying to do. I do like the concept though.

I'm pretty handy at most trades. Ventilation and plumbing not being part of that, so alot of the terminology in this thread lost me i will admit.

 

[budleydoright]

.snip....
I'm just saying; I dab too much, I do retarted stuff, i forget small things, and yea..Water cooling just isnt for me.

This is exactly what I was trying to say when I said much of the increase in efficiency is lost in the complexity!

 

[Ttystikk]

This is exactly what I was trying to say when I said much of the increase in efficiency is lost in the complexity!

Yeah, and when the student is finally tied of chasing his tail, the solution will be here waiting for him, lol. I too did not say water chilling is the panacea for all chilling situations.

Tty,

You showed me this thread so I'm gonna post my input/comments. Interesting debate guys, and interesting read.

First; To answer Op's original question, and it's already been answered: The reason you dont see a ton of large grows running on forced air, is because it is a BITCH to control all of the variables. Outside temps fluctuate 5-10 degrees, inside variables change. Fans turn on more or less, humidity decreases or increases, co2 levels are all over the place. Its just unreliable. You leave for a couple days, and it gets really hot..Fans kick on more, humidity drops, VPD takes over, and when you come back you're dealing with bullshit. Large ops dont want to lose crops due to variables outside their control.

Can it be done? FUCK YA! I'm doing a forced air 12k op right now. Its ridiculously hard to dial, and temperatures/humidity are all over the place...BUT, constant and vigilant monitoring, as well as practice have taught me what I need to do to get it in the "ballpark"

As far as watercooling; Its not for me. I'm all for efficiency and what not, but the more flowing water in a growroom, the more potential problems you're gonna have. Now Ty, I'm not saying your wrong, or that its not fucking awesome that you WC. I'm just saying; I dab too much, I do retarted stuff, i forget small things, and yea..Water cooling just isnt for me.

similarly, as i understand it, wc is only beneficial to a crop that is grown horizontal with hoods. I may have a R+D room with hoods in the near future, but I'm barebulb till I die otherwise. Any cooling system set up in my place is gonna have to cool multiple 6K rooms. Not happening with water cooling. I'm sure I could get it done in the one room but why bother when i have to set up AC in the rest.

Simply put; it just doesnt work out for what I'm trying to do. I do like the concept though.

I'm pretty handy at most trades. Ventilation and plumbing not being part of that, so alot of the terminology in this thread lost me i will admit.

Dab buddy- I've been doing water chilling for years now, and many of your basic assumptions are incorrect. First, water chilling works BETTER the more you scale it up; which is why it's used in everything from skyscrapers to car engines. Don't get the idea a few measly bulbs- or even a few dozen hoods- is any kind of a match for the tech's capability, cuz THAT'S what ain't gonna happen, brother!

Have a good look at my thread, and you tell me if that looks like sealed and vented fixtures being cooled with water chilling. Instead, you'll see my bare bulbs and vertical trellis, completely cooled by water, unassisted, from RDWC to temp and dehuey, in multiple rooms, each with its own schedule and climate requirements. SOUP TO NUTS. I swear it's not that difficult, and it's totally a snap to cool multiple rooms on a flip schedule with them, as it's basically automatic and does it by itself.

If you like, you can keep your outside air cooled hood and still cool and dehuey your grow room environment with water chilling. I just tore down a room with 8kW in Magnum xxxl Ochos hung double barrel style, where their cooling air came from outside, passed through the hoods and out of the room and gone. Of course I did not attempt to cool this air, it would have been expensively pointless! That's waste air, caring heat away already, there is zero to be gained by trying to keep that air in the room.

Some folks want to just pull the hot air through the hood and cool it, keeping all the air in the room. I say do yourself a favor and just get rid of the bloody fixture altogether at that point, as the only excuse to keep them is to reduce heat buildup. They really do cost far more light than they save in heat. I just did the conversion and I was shocked. Shocked, I tells ya!

I mean, I'm a few weeks away from my very first full room run on vertical trellis, and it's pretty seriously looking like I might be knocking on the 2 grams per watt door already. From 3 kW?! Further, some plants will exceed that individually, I'm certain of it. As far as I'm concerned, water chilling, RDWC and vertical bare bulb is a killer combination!

 

[TooHighTider]

You could do exactly that if you have the tools and the r22 or r410. here's a converted unit from ebay.

You could also get the unit that reverses into a heater which would allow you to use your chiller as a water cooled AC unit.

I'm sure this would require some wiring.

Hey Budly,

Is that a converted window unit?

It looks like it is. I found it on ebay(thanks for the search help), and it doesn't say. I really want the heat from my chiller to stay outside the house.

Thanks

 

[TooHighTider]

Heh heh well it's a good thing I admire his work, then...

Small world, lol

I used three Iceboxes, each with its own fan controlled by the environmental control unit in the room, to first cool 8kW in sealed n vented Magnum xxxl Ochos, and then to cool six bare bulbs in the same space. They were sufficient capacity for the first job, not so much for the second.

Small world no doubt.

Thanks