Advancing Eco Agriculture, Product Science

[milkyjoe]

Humphrey...I did not. But Cep jas both tissue test and sap showing what you see along with plant health correlation. Maybe he will talk about it. Personally until K drops below 3 I am not adjusting. Defs are easy to catch and spray for anyways.

 

[milkyjoe]

What is the origin of 20:1 C:N ratio suggestion? I believe 30:1 is usually the ratio recommended for composting... makes sense to me that the optimal rhizosphere C:N ratio may very well be different than the optimal composting C:N and now that I'm contemplating I sure would appreciate a jumping off point to refer to.

Now that my train of thought is chugging I'm wondering if the lower C:N ratio would be more conducive to bacterial growth (because relatively speaking they have a higher N requirement than other microbes)... likely it is not that simple and you really have to look at it like chess and consider the protozoa that will later feast on the thriving bacteria.

Lastly, it always seemed very oversimplified to me to assume all carbon is same and to not distinguish between the degree of recalcitrance of your carbon source when considering the C:N ratio... it makes sense to me to try to distinguish between carbon complexes that don't break down (ie the functional groups that end up becoming humic/fulvic acids and highly lignified substrates that don't really breakdown and thus are used as soilless media components) and readily decomposing organic matter.

The 20:1 comes from tainio and michael. I am trusting them. I do not have enough knowledge to speak intelligently.

I always heard 10:1 for compost. With the N driving somewhat excess bacterial growth to speed the breakdown of organic matter.

I am just no expert at all on this though...sorry

 

[furrywall11]

After checking out this pics from Milky's garden showing the zinc defs I noticed a lot of mine have that going on too. I had always thought it was a kind of over nute problem pushing the plants to grow in a burst so they came out crooked. Good to learn what it actually is! Did 10/ml per gallon straight Micropak this morning. Is that the right amount?

With the rains starting in a lot of areas I'm looking to do some preventative spraying for PM and bud rot. Does Sea Shield help with that?

 

[milkyjoe]

My current thinkong is when aea says 1 qt/acre I use 4 ml per gallon for foliar. Edit...so they say a pint...2 ml

On prevention...balance is what counts. Gotta know where you are at

 

[Cep]

Humphry, most of my current soils are in the 3% range for K, 14% Mg, 70-74% Ca, and the corresponding paste values are good. I do have a row outdoors with 6% K, 12% Mg, and 72% Ca and am anxious to see how it performs compared to the low K soils, but so far I'm not seeing K def in the other rows. It also wont be a fair evaluation because the 6% K row has really good micro levels, to the point where I saw some burning from the micro sprays I was using for every row.

 

[Humphry Davy]

Well after just speaking w the soil chemist, those paste test targets are the minimum levels you want, and with big plants they wouldn't even be adequate. So the only purpose I see in paste test analysis when done w standard testing is to let you know when things are being tied up, for instance if you have adequate P levels on the standard and the paste test shows you are below the minimum then you need to increase the microbe population to help free up the P. It could also be used to tell what you should be foliar feeding, for instance if your standard tests shows adequate amounts of Zn but your paste is low, better to foliar rather than apply more Zn to the soil and tie up P.

With that said the low Zn levels could be from too high of P levels in the soil.

Now tissue testing could tell you the entire story, but I don't know of anyone even having guidelines to follow on cannabis to begin with, and the lab I work with won't share their tissue analysis, they will only tell you what you are low on.

 

[Humphry Davy]

Personally I think the best way to tell if our K% are good is to do sap testing on new and mature growth for K and if there is a difference (higher K in new growth and lower K in mature growth) then you know you need to up the K%.

 

[Cep]

Humphry,

I just got laquatwin Ca and K meters a few weeks ago, but I'm getting unexpected readings with it. I've measured peppers and tomatoes and have seen 1-2000 ppm K, but canna is around 3-400ppm. So far, when I took readings on the outdoor plants the K levels were the same above and below but I had just run some agsil through the drip. I'll retest when it gets nice out and report back.

 

[Humphry Davy]

Thank you very much for sharing, hopefully we can all come up w some valid targets compiling everyone's data. Im curious what K% we end up with. With that said I'm wondering if solomans recommendations actually prove to be valid, by lowering K% with increasing TCEC we would also be lowering our P levels as he ties them together in a fashion of elemental K = elemental P, which should in turn reduce our phosphate complexes, and free up Zn, Fe, ect.

I'm noticing by balancing my soil with the standard tests I'm getting paste test readings close to what my old hydro/soilless fertilizer was, kind of interesting but elusively predictable.

 

[milkyjoe]

Humphrey. Have you talked with Logan about P? They don't tie it to K do they? Seems to me most of the guys consulting on big acrage do not follow that.

Also do you run any sealed rooms over 1000 ppm CO2? Kind of curious about possibly higher sugar production and mineral availability

 

[VortexPower420]

I know alot of you guys go by the lectures he gave at the soil confrencre a few years ago. The one thing that stuck out about all of this is he repeated mention of "regenerative agriculture".

Using his PHT (plant health therapy) line to help improve the mineral balance in soil and the plant. Ultimately over the course of time bring the soil back into balance and introduce Om through " carbon induction".

From what I got out of it the goal is to have the plant feed only by its roots from a balanced, microbialial rich soil. If something is needed he has his micronized sprays and drenches to help solve the problems quickly, but he also Sait that if you see problems its already to late and yeild is affected.

Which brings me to another point. Be talks about key points ts in a plants life that need to be perfect to have the most potential. I believe it was for corn 0-14 days is number of ears, 14-21 days is number of kernals per row and 21- 28 is number of rows per ear or something like that.

Where does this fit in with canna?

But I digress, what are your guys ultimate goal using the Aea line. Is it to ultimately increase you soil to the point of not needing anything but what the plant takes out, which could easily be replaced with a complete granular fertilizers that you could blend yourself?

Or is it to constantly buy bottles from Aea?

I know John is into sustainability and the last option seem not so sustainable.

Not trying to rabble rouse its just from where I stand I see things differently. His thoughts are great, his line is great but I think somewhere something is missing.

Fatherearth I thinks is seeing this from his post. If you let nature work and you help her along giving boost when needed the plant will thank you 10 fold. Plus you can stop running around figuring out what minerals are competing because you have the full soil food web at your back.

 

[Humphry Davy]

I actually mentioned to him that I do and he thought that was excessive P, but he's also working w farmers that are not so willing to spend the money we are so I've noticed he has a minimalist approach to balancing soils. Most of our conversations come w a large amount of salt on my end if you catch my drift.

He once told me I could get P def from a lack of Zn, could be true but I've never read any thing that supports that theory. I know the opposite to be true, that P hinders Zn.

No CO2 for me anymore, I used to but now I use underground air to cool my rooms and constantly bring in fresh air. I still have all the equipment though.

 

[Humphry Davy]

In reference to the Zn....

When I reference my soil test #'s, I'm not refernencing their numbers but rather their data with my soil density factored in. So it's: (lab results) x (field soil density/my soil density)

Two soils, we will call them A and B

Soil A,
standard test Zn=80.83 ppm
Saturated paste Zn=<0.02 ppm
pH = 6.50
Organic Matter %= 28.82
Standard test P= 262.8 ppm
Standard test S= 931.1 ppm

Soil B,
Standard test Zn= 98.54 ppm
Sat. Paste Zn= 0.10 ppm
pH= 6.5
OM%= 38.90
standard test P= 669.2 ppm
Standard test S= 1319.4 ppm

Take what you will from that data, from what I see (granted I wouldn't base much off two test) the P level, S level, nor pH are not affecting the difference in Zn availability. However the organic matter % is, and OM is known to chelate Zn.

So my original target of 50 ppm Zn is about to get a huge bump, possibly to 150 ppm. 4 other soil tests with Zn levels on the standard test ranging from 16.25-47.97 ppm all show <0.02 ppm Zn in saturated paste analysis.

 

[Cep]

Thanks for sharing Humphry.

My rows with soil in the 3-4%K range are starting to show K moving up in the plant. I.e. 180ppm in lower leaves vs 240ppm in upper or 330ppm vs 520ppm. Im hesitant to say that this is conclusive evidence that 3-4%K is too low for canna because I know that below 2ft the soil is clay and defiecient in all cations. I suspect that the roots have made it down there because my sap pH is dropping for the first time this year and I'm seeing tiny spots of pm on a few plants.

As far as zinc goes, do you think there will be better availability over time. Kind of like amending with lime and it not all being there right away? I've seen the same thing with Zinc on paste analysis.

 

[milkyjoe]

The interesting thing though, since you test, is that you can catch it and spray. Allows you to run on the low side with no fear. And helps your plants take up Ca early in life when they need it.

I ain't amending K til I drop to 3%.

 

[Cep]

Yeah, I don't ever want to be on the high side again. And in years past I've seen plants start to show advanced K def (yellow margin on leaflet) and they get practically no mold. Botrytis is my biggest problem and getting adequate Ca during flower was the main priority this year. So far I've spotted zero bud rot on the early finishers that are maybe a week away from chop. I hope I can take the late finishers that far.

I'm also stil trying to figure out the right amounts of KSil and CaSil to run through the drip to adjust pH. Weeks ago I added KSil before I had the horiba meters because I knew K was low from the soil tests and my pH shot up from 6.4 to 6.8-7 for a week or so just from around 300 grams into 30 yards of soil.

 

[milkyjoe]

I got a feeling...but no proof...K raises sap pH much more effectively than casil. K stays mobile in the sap but ca does not...ca gets where it is going and gets out the cab. So sap pH may not be the best way to tell

 

[Cep]

I got a feeling you're right. Its easy to overdo it and even if you are able to get the pH in line with agsil you may not have the right ratio of cations on the tissue then to lead to cells sturdy enough to withstand fungus in wet conditions. I can't back it up though without tissue #'s.

I'm getting rain at the end of the week. Trying to let the Odysseys go to Oct 5 though. Snap a pick of them and the jager before you cut..

 

[milkyjoe]

I am looking about that time also. Grew one of each...and not well. Both are dense as fuck though.

 

[Humphry Davy]

Thanks for sharing Humphry.

My rows with soil in the 3-4%K range are starting to show K moving up in the plant. I.e. 180ppm in lower leaves vs 240ppm in upper or 330ppm vs 520ppm. Im hesitant to say that this is conclusive evidence that 3-4%K is too low for canna because I know that below 2ft the soil is clay and defiecient in all cations. I suspect that the roots have made it down there because my sap pH is dropping for the first time this year and I'm seeing tiny spots of pm on a few plants.

As far as zinc goes, do you think there will be better availability over time. Kind of like amending with lime and it not all being there right away? I've seen the same thing with Zinc on paste analysis.

hard to say, until then I'll be foliar feeding biomin Zn and raising my standard test Zn targets. I'm also seeing the same deal with Iron.

The interesting thing though, since you test, is that you can catch it and spray. Allows you to run on the low side with no fear. And helps your plants take up Ca early in life when they need it.

I ain't amending K til I drop to 3%.

Yeah I think running K low in the soil and just spoon feeding it as it grows is the best way to go. Less Ca and Mg antagonism up front.