plantingplants
Active member
7 pH, 1.4% OM. River loam.
P 27 ppm
K 62 ppm
Mg 400 ppm
Ca 1400 ppm (1000 ppm aa8.2)
P 27 ppm
K 62 ppm
Mg 400 ppm
Ca 1400 ppm (1000 ppm aa8.2)
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Advancing Eco Agriculture, Product Science
- Thread starter FatherEarth
- Start date
plantingplants
Active member
Ok so doing 10:1 ca:mg i worked out this ideal:
Ca 1000-> 4000 (20 meq) 81.9%
Mg 400 (3.3 meq) 13.6%
K 62-> 400 (1 meq) 4.2%
Na 20 (0.1 meq) 0.4%
So that's about 24.4 meq CEC and it's only at 9 right now with 1.4% OM.
If you have a 10 cec material and 20 cec material and combine 1:1 by weight, that should give a 15 cec material, right? Should be able to calculate Carbon like that to, from the OM #.
Does anyone have or know where to find a soil test of any commercially available compost or manure?
Mizer i checked with spectrum and its the same for them. OM=C and its done there with loss by ignition, but they use total N for c:n.
Ca 1000-> 4000 (20 meq) 81.9%
Mg 400 (3.3 meq) 13.6%
K 62-> 400 (1 meq) 4.2%
Na 20 (0.1 meq) 0.4%
So that's about 24.4 meq CEC and it's only at 9 right now with 1.4% OM.
If you have a 10 cec material and 20 cec material and combine 1:1 by weight, that should give a 15 cec material, right? Should be able to calculate Carbon like that to, from the OM #.
Does anyone have or know where to find a soil test of any commercially available compost or manure?
Mizer i checked with spectrum and its the same for them. OM=C and its done there with loss by ignition, but they use total N for c:n.
This all depends on the pH. If the pH is 6.8-6.9, there are almost no more anionic binding sites to grab cations. If the pH is high, the calculated CEC is not a real number as there is an excess of cations for the binding sites available as the labs measure CEC by the sumation of cations, which is not really correct.
AND if you have added airspace that could be upwards of 50% less density, no? This is why it is a good idea to sift the sample. What comes reported back from the lab will really be diluted in much more area due to all the air space and I believe we get a more realistic sample as there is less ground up peat, pumice, carbonates, etc..
plantingplants
Active member
This is straight topsoil, no amendments. pH 7. Slow, when you work with new soil and you need to raise the cec and om, more or less predictably, how do youcalculate how much manure or whatever to add?
Yea. With that pH and the low organic matter you are not gonna be able to build Cec quickly at all.
If you have to grow in it, it is gonna be like hydro all most. Over time leonardite, compost, etc and lots of gypsum might get it done.
But this year, if you have to, imo your best bet would be what be what they call a biotic fertilizer. A balanced fert that comes with its own carbon and will help your soil build organic matter
An example would be Perfect Blend...or find another.
Honestly though you would be better off with compost and a cover crop this yr
http://www.perfect-blend.com/NPKAg.html
If you have to grow in it, it is gonna be like hydro all most. Over time leonardite, compost, etc and lots of gypsum might get it done.
But this year, if you have to, imo your best bet would be what be what they call a biotic fertilizer. A balanced fert that comes with its own carbon and will help your soil build organic matter
An example would be Perfect Blend...or find another.
Honestly though you would be better off with compost and a cover crop this yr
http://www.perfect-blend.com/NPKAg.html
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PP,
Depends on what I am planting. If it is a tree or if it is an annual. Or it if is THIS annual.
Ideally you would aim for 6 to 8% OM in a decent soil. The deeper the better. However, the deeper you incorporate OM, the more important that the OM is already digested or in the form of humus or even a Bokashi which is a partially digested OM on its' way to humus.
Usually the biggest problem that most growers have is air, if this is the case, you need to make sure that the OM isn't going to make your air problem worse. Tight clays are one thing, loose soils are something else.
You trying to plant out in native soil this year?
Everyone that made a light mix this year is loving it. The growth rates even in the cold have been phenomenal allowing for low N use, thus eliminating some of the insect and disease pressure.
The goal is to make good vigor without having to pound so much N. Most are working pure amino acids.
How about a bit more information? You going to make mounds?
plantingplants
Active member
Just a side project. Was going to do a veggie raised bed and needed more soil so figured I could improve this $26/yd topsoil. I would use my own native clay but lots of rocks, little time + gophers. Jidoka that stuff makes sense now- p gro made a version with biochar but i didnt really understand.
I just remembered that I already kind of did this experiment. I mixed 10 cec 2.4% om native clay with peat (1/3 is peat) and it came out as 25 cec and 5.1% om. I would guess some chicken manure as food would raise om a point to hit 6%.
Does the cec and om that peat contributes not count?
Re: light soils, that's been the standard out here at least. All the bagged soil is really light coco peat perlite blends. Is that what you mean when you say light?
I just remembered that I already kind of did this experiment. I mixed 10 cec 2.4% om native clay with peat (1/3 is peat) and it came out as 25 cec and 5.1% om. I would guess some chicken manure as food would raise om a point to hit 6%.
Does the cec and om that peat contributes not count?
Re: light soils, that's been the standard out here at least. All the bagged soil is really light coco peat perlite blends. Is that what you mean when you say light?
Here is the SDS of the Accelerate product....
Chemical Name C.A.S No. Common Name
fish 68844-77-9 Kelp
Water 7732-18-5 Water
Leonardite 129521-66-0 Humates
Magnesium Chloride 7786-30-3 Sea Water
Molasses 68476-78-0 Molasses
Yucca 90147-57-2 Yucca
Seaweed 90046-12-1 Seaweed
Manganese Sulfate 10034-96-5 N/A
Zinc Sulfate 7733-02-0 N/A
Cobalt Sulfate 10026-24-1
SECTION 3 HAZARDOUS IDENTIFI
i'm looking at ceramic supplies & wonder if cobalt carbonate or oxide; manganese carbonate or oxide; and/or zinc oxide may be used to formulate one's own accelerate clone?
are these preparations properly chelated? as i assume this is the role of the sulfur in the sulfate forms
are these preparations properly chelated? as i assume this is the role of the sulfur in the sulfate forms
Or you could just take and buy some good chelates like Albion or Baicor and mix them together. Some Eklonia seaweed extracts such as Kelpak and some good Ascophyllum 16 from noamkelp, plus add it the Co, Mo etc... and really get it kicking....
You guys are waking up! I feel hope!
You guys are waking up! I feel hope!
So accelerate was originally 6 oz stim (kelp), 3 oz sea shield, 1.5 oz mn sulfate (3%) soln per 1000 sq ft. Then kempf added some other stuff...holo P, sea crop and some other micros
The kelp was to jack up cytokinins to keep the roots dominate over the shoots, shield for "energy" and the Mn is what drives the extra bud set. P to transfer energy, Co for root growth and crop for energy (in the form of jacked up EC in the sap...NaCl).
What he fails to leave out of the narrative is the real reason for "stretch". This is the period of fastest cell division in the plants life. Cell division requires Ca. If you don't have Ca keeping up with N, voila stretch.
Shield is his best provider of Ca. All his ground carbonate stuff does not provide much change in sap levels at all.
So if you wanna make your own Ca is first. Blast of gyp to the soil 2 weeks before stretch and foliar of amino or acetate chelates Ca. Mn sulfate chelates with fulvic...some Co and Mo
You could chuck pacific gro and kelp if you want but if you get everything else right the plant will make its own cytokinins
Or use accelerate but def add Ca to it
The kelp was to jack up cytokinins to keep the roots dominate over the shoots, shield for "energy" and the Mn is what drives the extra bud set. P to transfer energy, Co for root growth and crop for energy (in the form of jacked up EC in the sap...NaCl).
What he fails to leave out of the narrative is the real reason for "stretch". This is the period of fastest cell division in the plants life. Cell division requires Ca. If you don't have Ca keeping up with N, voila stretch.
Shield is his best provider of Ca. All his ground carbonate stuff does not provide much change in sap levels at all.
So if you wanna make your own Ca is first. Blast of gyp to the soil 2 weeks before stretch and foliar of amino or acetate chelates Ca. Mn sulfate chelates with fulvic...some Co and Mo
You could chuck pacific gro and kelp if you want but if you get everything else right the plant will make its own cytokinins
Or use accelerate but def add Ca to it
Wild history.
HappyTreeFarm
Member
How much gypsum? just about to flip to 12/12
That is kind of a loaded question. Some around here will say tons. If I had high Ca (say above 70%) with good microlife Id add alot less then if I was below 68%. So case by case basis.
This Ca and K meter are coming in handy. Funny part is Im pretty much doing the same thing as before just more fine tuned.
Crazy weather here in SoCO. Swept the snow off the dep tarps covered the hoops and fired up the lights and heaters. Was 65 a couple days ago and a couple days before that we got dime size hail. Im sure alot of growers on the eastern slope got fucked by monster hail bigger then golf balls. My giant pumpkins got hammered pretty bad.
This Ca and K meter are coming in handy. Funny part is Im pretty much doing the same thing as before just more fine tuned.
Crazy weather here in SoCO. Swept the snow off the dep tarps covered the hoops and fired up the lights and heaters. Was 65 a couple days ago and a couple days before that we got dime size hail. Im sure alot of growers on the eastern slope got fucked by monster hail bigger then golf balls. My giant pumpkins got hammered pretty bad.
You don't dump on huge quantities at this very sensitive moment. Not sure who would advocate such a thing, but the results would not be positive.
These are calculations, not guesses
Another meter believer? Love to hear more.
HappyTreeFarm
Member
Thanks for the responses, I've been wanting a K and sap Ph meter, hopefully next round. I'm thinking those are the most important to start off with, even though they are all important. expensive tools. will be nice to have a full tool box for in field decision making. For now maybe another soil test and paste test to see close to where I'm at now.
HappyTreeFarm
Member
SlowN I'm curious about your opinion on sap testing? it seems you foo foo on the woo sap tests. Do you find no value in it? would appreciate you sharing. Fertilizer sales man or not Kempf and Sait have been able to increase yields and reduce disease and insect pressure through measuring sap, from my understanding. correct me if I'm wrong
HappyTreeFarm
Member
So like a couple cups of Ca per yard per week. if above 70%?
more details would help
more details would help
