Advancing Eco Agriculture, Product Science

[Lightweight]

There's a decent amount of small pebbles also, but I don't think it's a lot more than your average field soil

 

[jidoka]

What is strange is good organic matter but low Cec. I would bet that soil will hold a lot more than the Cec indicates

Have them do a scoop weight...it is free

 

[Lightweight]

What is strange is good organic matter but low Cec. I would bet that soil will hold a lot more than the Cec indicates

Have them do a scoop weight...it is free

I thought that was weird too. I live on a fairly large property and recently sent in soil samples from different spots around the property and most of the soil around here is very similar to the test report I posted: low CEC, pretty acidic with fairly high organic matter. I would generally think the OM would boost the CEC some, but that isn't the case here apparently.

 

[jidoka]

Here is what Graeme Sait says about low cec soils with low organic.

"The best tool in your light soils is humic acid. Your soils have a CEC of around 5, while humic acid has a CEC of 450. It can be used to stabilise highly leachable nutrients in your soil.
It is also important to understand that in these light soils it is best to simply ignore the concept of specific base saturation percentages. In these light soils the simple strategy is to aim for 500 ppm of calcium and 120 ppm of both magnesium and potassium.
The thing to remember here is that one ppm is one kg per acre. You need to multiply by 2.5 to get a per hectare equivalent.
One tonne of lime for example contains 400 kgs of calcium, so it will deliver 400 ppm per acre or about 160ppm per hectare, to your soil".

I would guess though that once you start adding minerals to your soil you will see the cec go up. I see it all the time with peat based mixes. My current indoor started out life a tcec of 9 and now is at 45 with a pH of 6.3.

 

[slownickel]

Here is what Graeme Sait says about low cec soils with low organic.

"The best tool in your light soils is humic acid. Your soils have a CEC of around 5, while humic acid has a CEC of 450. It can be used to stabilise highly leachable nutrients in your soil.
It is also important to understand that in these light soils it is best to simply ignore the concept of specific base saturation percentages. In these light soils the simple strategy is to aim for 500 ppm of calcium and 120 ppm of both magnesium and potassium.
The thing to remember here is that one ppm is one kg per acre. You need to multiply by 2.5 to get a per hectare equivalent.
One tonne of lime for example contains 400 kgs of calcium, so it will deliver 400 ppm per acre or about 160ppm per hectare, to your soil".

I would guess though that once you start adding minerals to your soil you will see the cec go up. I see it all the time with peat based mixes. My current indoor started out life a tcec of 9 and now is at 45 with a pH of 6.3.

Aiming at ppm levels? WTF? Didn't learn anything yet about balancing a soil? Ignore percentage base saturations? Some serious misinformation you are floating around and bad math to boot? Minimum of 500 ppm of Ca? You must have started early today....

Adding elements doesn't not raise the CEC unless those molecules you are adding have Carbon.

Taking more recommendations from woowoo salesman? Thought you may have learned a lesson.... guess not.

 

[Lightweight]

@Jidoka. Coincidentally I just watered in some humic acid yesterday afternoon along with some Spectrum and Biogenesis. I wish I had been hitting the soil with some humic acid for the past few months. I don't know why I didn't think about it until a couple days ago. In my own defense I have been hauling butt to play catch up. I built my greenhouses by myself and it set me back a bit.

@slownickel, what would you suggest starting out with a low CEC soil?

 

[jidoka]

Light...make sure to include some fulvic with the Humic. If you can chelate those metal salts and then let the plant drive their release you will be ahead.

Some fat will drive fungal growth. So hydrolyzed fish with the fat left in is excellent

 

[HillMizer]

Lightweight...what kind of soil is that? Super low EC

You are gonna have to fertilize...that soil does not hold enough nutes to grow a crop

When comparing a theoretical 500lb/yard 40 cec medium to 2000lb/yard 10 CEC field soil; would one be able to say that the effective CEC or gross CEC is the same? Meaning 1 yard will hold the same amount of nutrients? They have the same nutrient holding capacity by volume if I'm not mistaken. CEC is calculated by weight.

How does this affect plant nutrient usage?

Does it really run out of nutrient faster?

Will the lower CEC soil more easily exchange mineral cations for hydrogen? Can that be a good thing?

Does the lower CEC soil change PH more rapidly as mineral cations are exchanged for hydrogen?

 

[jidoka]

I am on a phone and suck at typing on it.

Your first paragraph is my understanding exactly...at least til you introduce organic matter

Anyways when I get home later tonight let me take a shot at the rest...see if it makes sense or not

 

[HillMizer]

I'll throw another question in here. I'd post on Slownickels lounge but everyone there ignores me and has pissing matches and works on PlantingPlants garden. Maybe I don't contribute enough.

Organic matter is a measurement of carbon in the soil. Through acid extraction or incineration a level of carbon present is determined. So why does the lab charge us extra to do a C:N when we should be able to use our OM number and our nitrogen number to figure it out?

 

[slownickel]

@Jidoka. Coincidentally I just watered in some humic acid yesterday afternoon along with some Spectrum and Biogenesis. I wish I had been hitting the soil with some humor acid for the past few months. I don't know why I didn't think about it until a couple days ago. In my own defense I have been hauling butt to play catch up. I built my greenhouses by myself and it set me back a bit.

@slownickel, what would you suggest starting out with a low CEC soil?

You need to give more details. Dig a hole, fill it with water several times. How fast does it drain?

If these are the old beat up clays from the pineapple guys, they are beat to shit. The little organic cap that is forming as you said, is recent since the boys left....

If there is little drainage it is one thing. If it still drains real well, then you must build it up quick. You could take the top soil and make mounds and make a mix in the mound beefing up what is needed. What OM do you have available locally? Manures? Any compost? Can you harvest organic cap material in nearby forest somewhere? Wood chips? Any ag waste at all in your area?

You need a minimum of 2000 ppm of calcium to achieve any kind of nutrient density. Spiking calcium with OM would let the plant go for the quantities of Ca it wants vs trying to dial it in completely.

There an AEA dealer there?? LMAO?

 

[reppin2c]

Hill- of course they're gonna charge extra for C:N.

I get exactly what your saying about the cec vs weight. Weight is always factor, lightweight compared to field soil is different categories.

LW- can you source oyster shell flower there and can you get more of that ghouse mix? Add some sulfur, phos, B in that mix

 

[jidoka]

When comparing a theoretical 500lb/yard 40 cec medium to 2000lb/yard 10 CEC field soil; would one be able to say that the effective CEC or gross CEC is the same? Meaning 1 yard will hold the same amount of nutrients? They have the same nutrient holding capacity by volume if I'm not mistaken. CEC is calculated by weight.

How does this affect plant nutrient usage?

The plant nutrient usage mostly comes down to plant respiration provided you can supply what it needs in the way of minerals, hormones, enzymes, etc. So if a light soil provides more oxygen to the roots it very well could respire faster. This is why most people use lightweight mixes...cause regardless of soil balance there is always plenty of oxygen available to the roots.

Does it really run out of nutrient faster?

Not because of weight itself. It comes down to how much energy the plant takes in as light and how efficiently it converts that energy into mass. So same thing...light soils more forgiving.

Will the lower CEC soil more easily exchange mineral cations for hydrogen? Can that be a good thing?

Not that I am aware of. Comes down to how much H becomes available, from pH, microbes, etc imo

Does the lower CEC soil change PH more rapidly as mineral cations are exchanged for hydrogen?

If the soils contain the exact same amount of cations then it comes down to what we were talking about earlier.

Lightweight soils are more forgiving in the Oxygen department. The heavier the soil you run the more important the Ca to Mg ratio becomes. But if you get that right the heavier soil will also perform and no doubt be a lot cheaper.

 

[jidoka]

I'll throw another question in here. I'd post on Slownickels lounge but everyone there ignores me and has pissing matches and works on PlantingPlants garden. Maybe I don't contribute enough.

Organic matter is a measurement of carbon in the soil. Through acid extraction or incineration a level of carbon present is determined. So why does the lab charge us extra to do a C:N when we should be able to use our OM number and our nitrogen number to figure it out?

If you are using Logan and you ask for N you typically get nitrate and NH4...that is not total N. Total includes organic N. That is the extra charge.

If you are asking is that right...no clue. I pay for it from time to time...like every 3rd grow or so.

 

[Lightweight]

Light...make sure to include some fulvic with the Humic. If you can chelate those metal salts and then let the plant drive their release you will be ahead.

Some fat will drive fungal growth. So hydrolyzed fish with the fat left in is excellent

I'm on it: ordering some fulvic ASAP. I've got SeaShield already. The rabbit manure and timothy hay has mats of fungus growing on it already. Apparently fungus loves that stuff.

 

[Lightweight]

You need to give more details. Dig a hole, fill it with water several times. How fast does it drain?

If these are the old beat up clays from the pineapple guys, they are beat to shit. The little organic cap that is forming as you said, is recent since the boys left....

If there is little drainage it is one thing. If it still drains real well, then you must build it up quick. You could take the top soil and make mounds and make a mix in the mound beefing up what is needed. What OM do you have available locally? Manures? Any compost? Can you harvest organic cap material in nearby forest somewhere? Wood chips? Any ag waste at all in your area?

You need a minimum of 2000 ppm of calcium to achieve any kind of nutrient density. Spiking calcium with OM would let the plant go for the quantities of Ca it wants vs trying to dial it in completely.

There an AEA dealer there?? LMAO?

The soil seems to drain well. I haven't filled a hole up with water to see how fast it drains, but when I'm watering the water penetrates the soil well. It doesn't seem to get flooded, but retains water pretty well. I think I went 8 or 9 days in between waterings the last time which I'd consider pretty normal since I have 3 to 4 inches of rabbit manure and timothy hay mulched around the plants and it's been humid and not too hot: hovering right around 80F during the day. All the plants are looking pretty happy ATM and are growing at a good pace.

Top soil choices are pretty limited here, but there's a few places to get it. And I have about 3 to 4 inches of rabbit manure and timothy hay mulched around the plants. I have horse manure too and a huge pile of wood chips. And there's a few sources for compost here also.

I have been foliar spraying the plants with small amounts of different stuff quite a bit with some breaks here and there. I have made sure to foliar feed some calcium everyday though along with microbes everyday.

 

[Lightweight]

Hill- of course they're gonna charge extra for C:N.

I get exactly what your saying about the cec vs weight. Weight is always factor, lightweight compared to field soil is different categories.

LW- can you source oyster shell flower there and can you get more of that ghouse mix? Add some sulfur, phos, B in that mix

I can source oyster shell flour here. I have most of a 50 lb. bag right now.

The greenhouse soil test results are from my first greenhouse and it's just the dirt that I built the GH over. It's about 40-50 ft. away from my other GH, but that soil has been worked some so I can't really get any more of that dirt. I sent in a soil sample of the 2nd GH a few days ago so I'll see what the results look like. I have a pile of topsoil that might pair well with the 2nd GH soil depending on what the soil test report says. We'll see in a few days

 

[HillMizer]

Lightweight. Heads up on humates, they can be really expensive but if you buy from an agricultural distributor they can be a lot cheaper. 2000lbs of >60% humic acid new mexico humate is $800 retail at a local farm store and much cheaper at wholesale. Not sure how much fulvic because CA doesn't recognize fulvic acid, but Mexico usually has good fulvic content.

 

[plantingplants]

I found some 10 cec topsoil. How much manure might it take to raise CEC by 10 meq so I can get Ca up to 2000ppm? I would shoot lower for cec but this topsoil has 400 ppm Mg.

 

[jidoka]

What is the pH, how much organic?

IMO ideally in top soil you want 10:1 ca:mg...7 at a min