Advancing Eco Agriculture, Product Science

[reppin2c]

My last order came in good shape as well. The grow always seem to have problems but they filed 2.5s with 2 gallons and it worked

 

[plantingplants]

What is the max you can bring Zn and Cu to when P is high (like 1000 ppm)? I hear Zn should be 1/10 P and Cu 1/2 Zn but there must be a limit.

Or at least a safe number?

 

[reppin2c]

I do 40% and 40%. You'd be safe at 100 ppm zn and 50 ppm cu. Something that high I'd foliar my micros

Someone correct me if I'm wrong

 

[orechron]

I've only got Zinc to 50ish ppm. I think Milky may have got it to 100ppm. I also think HumphryDavy(sp?) got it well over 100ppm chasing his high P but I don't think he's been active for a while.

I would not let Copper get above 20ppm. Other people say much lower than that. If you're in a high organic matter mix they will benefit from foliar Cu.

 

[plantingplants]

Thanks guys! Orech- why no higher than 20 ppm Cu? Some antagonism? Or toxicity?

Also at what ppm do you foliar copper sulfate pentahydrate?

Spectrum has a Cu index that factors in OM. I'd like to see where I get with that.

 

[orechron]

Soil needs Cu but it's an antimicrobial element. It also doesn't appear to leach. There are grape growers who have got it up over 100ppm with years of Bordeaux mixture spraying and it probably starts antagonizing Iron or Mn uptake at that point.

If I spray copper alone I usually just do a small pinch into a gallon with fulvic. I've gotten clones from people that sometimes have a bit of pm that developed in transit. Trouble plants mainly come from hydro set ups, but I hit them with a few copper sprays and I haven't used any harsh fungicides in years as a result.

Spectrum emails you those index numbers because theres a law preventing them from sending it with the main analysis. Cu will always be indexed low in high o matter mixes.

 

[slownickel]

Soil needs Cu but it's an antimicrobial element. It also doesn't appear to leach. There are grape growers who have got it up over 100ppm with years of Bordeaux mixture spraying and it probably starts antagonizing Iron or Mn uptake at that point.

If I spray copper alone I usually just do a small pinch into a gallon with fulvic. I've gotten clones from people that sometimes have a bit of pm that developed in transit. Trouble plants mainly come from hydro set ups, but I hit them with a few copper sprays and I haven't used any harsh fungicides in years as a result.

Spectrum emails you those index numbers because theres a law preventing them from sending it with the main analysis. Cu will always be indexed low in high o matter mixes.

The influence of OM on copper is far less than manganese. Manganese availability is greatly influenced by both Ph and OM. Copper much more due to Ph compared to OM.

If you ask Spectrum to set you up a file on their database, you can download all your analysis in excel format. Makes life much easier. The two indexed numbers come through in excel too!

 

[plantingplants]

Hey do you guys have any tips on improving this mix? My water has 285 alkalinity, fyi.

12.75 yards lava rock
12.75 yards peat
12.75 yards oly fish compost
250 lbs kelp meal
240 lb 4-3-0 crab meal
280 lbs gypsum
250 lbs oyster shell
130 lbs neem cake
100 lbs alfalfa meal
1000 lbs glacial rock dust

Test results for fresh mix unwatered:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/attachment.php?attachmentid=362973&d=1463088535

I am going to amend again once in pots so it doesn't have to be perfect.

Proposed changes:

-change base mix by reducing compost from 33% to 10%, so 12.75 yd lava, 21.5 yd peat, 4 yd compost. The oly fish compost is stupid high in Mg, K, fe, al, na (per BAS test results).

-completely remove glacial rock dust and add micros with sulfates pre-planting. (PS has anyone ever ordered large custom soil blends with micros mixed in at yard? The possibility of micro hotspots seems too sketchy)

-unsure about Ca sources. The original mix came in at 6.1 pH fresh but with all the extra peat replacing the high pH compost it might need more lime? I do want it to have more Si so maybe I can use Calcium Silicate to bring pH and Ca up?

-Is kelp and alfalfa and crab worth the cost? Seems like woo but who knows. I wonder if I could just replace it all with stutzman chicken manure but not sure how much to add.

 

[orechron]

The influence of OM on copper is far less than manganese. Manganese availability is greatly influenced by both Ph and OM. Copper much more due to Ph compared to OM.

If you ask Spectrum to set you up a file on their database, you can download all your analysis in excel format. Makes life much easier. The two indexed numbers come through in excel too!

The two tests that I've had them do the indexing on resulted in 5ppm Cu indexing to .1 and 36-38ppm Mn indexing to 20...

This is 6.8pH in that problem media I told you about that is pretty much pure castings at this point.

What ppm limit do you feel comfortable with? Do you see a geometric increase on the index when you increase ppm's? I definitely don't want to push copper to 100ppm to get it to index at 2 or maybe it works differently?

 

[reppin2c]

Plantingplants- holy shit man EC 2.28. I was gonna add about that many lbs of amendments to 300 yards

 

[jidoka]

edit...cat is right.

 

[caterpillar710]

Giving up too much info

 

[plantingplants]

Cat, I'm curious what angle you are coming from? Is it to limit competition as long as you can? How large of a role do you feel your research and trade secrets will play in keeping your business competitive in the future? Just curious. Curious about jidoka's answer, too.

 

[caterpillar710]

Cat, I'm curious what angle you are coming from? Is it to limit competition as long as you can?

How much competition is there if most growers can't even grow a crop that test clean for mold and pesticides? Not much.

How large of a role do you feel your research and trade secrets will play in keeping your business competitive in the future?

I feel like the skill set I've developed over the last 10+ years of doing this is the reason why I have been and remain competitive regardless of price fluctuations or bad decisions, of which I've made a few...I don't feel like giving every one the answer to the test any more. I've contributed so much of that freely and openly to the most ungrateful audience possible that there's just no motivation to help at all at this point

Just curious. Curious about jidoka's answer, too.

 

[jidoka]

The crowd seems to be headed down a different path than I have chosen. Perhaps better to just watch that develop while I do my own thing. Who knows...maybe I learn something by just listening instead of jabbering away

 

[slownickel]

The two tests that I've had them do the indexing on resulted in 5ppm Cu indexing to .1 and 36-38ppm Mn indexing to 20...

This is 6.8pH in that problem media I told you about that is pretty much pure castings at this point.

What ppm limit do you feel comfortable with? Do you see a geometric increase on the index when you increase ppm's? I definitely don't want to push copper to 100ppm to get it to index at 2 or maybe it works differently?

I just do weekly drenches on annuals. Maybe some small corrections up front, but twice weekly applications of the correct balance will get you where you want without having to apply 100 ppm of Cu.

Knowing that OM and pH makes Cu and Mn less available, the idea of clay, mixed with citric acid, mixed with the Metals and then spiked into several locations should do wonders. This is something that I have been meaning to try, just haven't the time to get the right clay to make the experiment.....

 

[slownickel]

The two tests that I've had them do the indexing on resulted in 5ppm Cu indexing to .1 and 36-38ppm Mn indexing to 20...

This is 6.8pH in that problem media I told you about that is pretty much pure castings at this point.

What ppm limit do you feel comfortable with? Do you see a geometric increase on the index when you increase ppm's? I definitely don't want to push copper to 100ppm to get it to index at 2 or maybe it works differently?

I just do weekly drenches on annuals. Maybe some small corrections up front, but twice weekly applications of the correct balance will get you where you want without having to apply 100 ppm of Cu.

Knowing that more OM and high pH makes Cu and Mn less available, the idea of clay, citric acid or aminoacids, mixed with the etals and then spiked into several locations should do wonders. This is something that I have been meaning to try, just haven't the time to get the right clay to make the experiment.....

 

[jidoka]

Ever get any insect pressure with your system Slow?

 

[orechron]

Slow, what about a soil ppm limit where problems begin? Even if you had a ballpark guess I would trust it more than mine because I don't have as much field experience and no experience with grapes.

 

[Rolando Mota]

The label on the pacifigro is 2-0.5-0.3 Smells pretty awesome too!

Just got another delivery of pacifigro, label says 2-1-0.3 but the receipt says 2-0.5-0.3 Strange.