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Advancing Eco Agriculture, Product Science

slownickel

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I've just started digging around the web for histosol fertility management. I want to cipher out what's different or what's similar in the soil chemistry between these organic matter based lightweight soils and mineral soils.

Bigg,

If you use compost, worm castings or any other decomposed material, you are not in a media, you are in a soil. You need a real soil analysis.

Using the various soil analysis procedures at Spectrum that they have so graciously accepted doing (they only run Melich 3 normally) we have been able to dial in EVERY grower that has asked for help and ventured to do their testing with M3 and [email protected]

Even those that have not tested their soil and used gypsum or milk got response!

Let's think this through a bit.

One is that the weight per volume is lower than that of a soil and that we need to compensate for that density. In the case of Jidoka's sample, it has half the density than that of a normal soil. However, his nutrient levels across the board are very high. So what do we do in this case, put on twice as much?

JIDOKA, you really thinking about applying more fertilizer than you already have done? And would you even contemplate doubling it due to your analysis?

Everyone that has been applying more fertilizer has found that all that fertilizer is killing them without having enough Ca.

One thing is to make calculations, another is to do trials. To dial it in with calcium one has to do test strips or container tests. Different dosages in the same mix.

I would be doing this now with throw away plants in 6 inch pots and playing with my Ca concentrations, run your calculations for 85% Ca using both calcium carbonate calculated to adjust your pH if need be and then gypsum to fill in the rest.

Then start off with the right mix and plan to apply gypsum and milk over the season at key moments in an effort to try and maximize to the fullest the plants genetic potential.
 

slownickel

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No offense but I am choosing my own path.

Of that I am sure.

Hopefully you will continue to share with us all, I for one love to learn and am all ears.

Your heavy K at the end with the K meter might have worked had you pumped in enough Ca to balance it. I do the same but without a potassium meter (used to have a couple Cardy's) and always run test plants to see how far I can go at the end without screwing things up.

The water solution extractions exercises years ago proved to me the need to drive K to finish up, but without enough Ca, results were not always what we expected. I am pretty sure you are reaching that conclusion. Each person has to learn this on their own, in their soil, with their water and on their terms.
 

jidoka

Active member
that much K was a flat out fuck up by me. live and learn.

I sent a test in Monday. It is my top soil with 20% Axis DE added to aid in drainage. DE absorbs water like a sponge and then slowly releases it back allowing the soil pores to remain open bringing air to the roots. That is important in my climate.

I chose K2 so you should get a copy...I added Si and ask them to weigh the sample.

Based on that test I will come up with an amendment strategy that I will also share. Then I will run a single 65 gallon pot of it indo to make sure I have not lost me mind...something I have to check often.

If it works it is on for next summer. A similar soil crushed for me and the couple of guys that also ran it this summer. I had peat in that mix which robbed nutrients in an attempt to build organic matter. That was useless.

If I add any compost it will be sup r green chicken compost as a starter fert. More likely I will add MAP chelated with fulvic acid to get the plants off to a fast start. Tainio microbes will absolutely keep that available all season long. Or if I need both P and K I will use MKP. We will see what we see.
 

jidoka

Active member
Here are some Logan numbers on the top soil by itself...

cec 28.96
pH 6.1
organic matter 5.55
sulfur 37 ppm
M3 phosphorous 29 ppm
Ca 3656 ppm and 63.13% bcs
Mg 535 ppm (a 6.8 ratio of Ca:Mg which your boy reams came real close to suggesting)
K 240 ppm
Si 73 ppm

If I were amending this by itself I would add enough Calcium Silicate to bring the pH up to 6.5 or so. K sulfate to match K ppm to Mg (ala Sait) and some MAP to raise P a little bit. Because of its weight and cec I should not have to do much of anything else except water.

But lets see what Spectrum has to say about the mix.

edit...or I could use mkp and ammonium sulfate (to raise the sulfer levels).
 

slownickel

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Here are some Logan numbers on the top soil by itself...

cec 28.96
pH 6.1
organic matter 5.55
sulfur 37 ppm
M3 phosphorous 29 ppm
Ca 3656 ppm and 63.13% bcs
Mg 535 ppm (a 6.8 ratio of Ca:Mg which your boy reams came real close to suggesting)
K 240 ppm
Si 73 ppm

If I were amending this by itself I would add enough Calcium Silicate to bring the pH up to 6.5 or so. K sulfate to match K ppm to Mg (ala Sait) and some MAP to raise P a little bit. Because of its weight and cec I should not have to do much of anything else except water.

But lets see what Spectrum has to say about the mix.

edit...or I could use mkp and ammonium sulfate (to raise the sulfer levels).

Are these M3 numbers?
 

slownickel

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Yes. The soil is thousands of yrs old and acidic. M3 ought to work

Do you have any muriatic acid?

Could you dig down a bit and take a couple of soil samples at various depths and splash some muriatic acid on them to see if they foam or not? I am curious about what you will see.

Are you running this same sample at Spectrum?

That is a lot of calcium and I have my doubts about how much of that is available, especially if you have a higher pH water. Do you have bicarbonates in your water? What is the pH of your water?

Is this sample virgin soil or is this from one of your plants?
 

jidoka

Active member
You fail to realize the awesome power of tainio/rootwise microbes. No such thing as unavailable minerals.

I dont have muratic but i have a lowes. I will do that by tomorrow
 

biggreg

Member
With this remix, I took my base and recorded the grams of calcitic lime it took to reach ph 6.4. In hopes that the Mehlich would give a more accurate CEC at my target ph due to the variable nature of organic matter CEC.
From there i could use the test to balance the cations and back off the lime to make room.
 

jidoka

Active member
Those nice folks at spectrum are willing to do the right thing at just double the price of what they were doing. I am sticking with logan

Try to help motherfuckers and this is what you get.

Pisses me off
 

biggreg

Member
Logan was rude to me on the phone when I asked about the scoop. The lady on the phone almost complained they do 300 samples a day and have no time to weigh out the samples. The spectrum was 28$ for the weigh in version of the S3 full Mehlich 3 test. ( for me, maybe others get a discount?)
 

jidoka

Active member
It cost me $50 to get a K2 plus Si from Spectrum. Now they want a hundie.

Talk with Bill McKibbean at Logan...not the lady on the phone.
 

reppin2c

Well-known member
Veteran
Jidoka Don't forget about the Ca in stutzmans when making your mix.

Lil chicken and biochar FTW. Weather was good and now a pause tIL it warms up a bit before I can mix all that in so I can hit the ground running in the spring

 

slownickel

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Reams nutrient recommendations for a soil

Reams nutrient recommendations for a soil

JIDOKA,

You made a comment the other day. Had to look around for my Reams Ag book because I don't remember him ever giving a number and I wonder what you were referencing the other day.

K Mg Ca Na
100 142 2000 20 Reams farm soil analysis ideal levels recs in ppms using Morgan CEC 11.5
83.5 215 1500 15 IAL (Skow) "" CEC 11.0

Here is the page in Reams book which refers to Mg.
 

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