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Advancing Eco Agriculture, Product Science

J

jidoka

Active member
Let us hear from Space. If my mix did not need gypsum but the other one did what can you conclude from that?

We can argue over whose results are more accurate...Logan or Spectrum. I honestly have no clue. I am going to shoot for Kinsey numbers with Spectrum results. Then I will know more.

My first soil sample was to Kinsey. He totally understands that Ca replaces other shit on the cec sites. Takes him forever to give you a recommend for which I never used him again. But motherfucker knows his shit. I spent hours trying to figure out how he came up with what he did...then I tried it.

On top of that I found Tainio. That is the dude I believe period now. Having said that I would recommend anyone using Mycogenesis take a look at Rootwise Mycrobe Complete instead. I promised not to say why but see for yourself. And full disclosure, yup I am friends with Root.
 
Space Case

Space Case

Well-known member
Veteran
jidoka, I did not add any gypsum to your clay mix, the only Ca source was crab meal mixed into the soil, according to your recipe, then they got a few hits of CaNO3 in late veg, and dry milk a la slownickel, in early flower. I ended that grow with 63% Ca saturation and 7.3 pH. I did, however, dump a bunch of pelletized gypsum down on the bottom of those open bottom beds, before dumping in the clay soil. And the native soil below it does also have about 4000ppm of available Ca according to [email protected]. All the healthy big plants in there had roots touching the bottom of the beds by the end of it. So plenty of calcium to go around and no carbonates added.

My total alkalinity of my water is 85, which isn't terrible, but it is enough to build up. I am adding a ton of gypsum to that clay mix to see if I can lower that 30% Mg. I did add quite a bit of epsom before planting, as per your recipe. Now I wanna see if I can use gypsum to really open that soil up. Still plenty of unbroken down basalt rock, pumice, and rice hulls. I did add enough rice hulls to put me over 100 lbs/ac of Si, which I think really helped growth and disease resistance the first round!

I can tell you for sure that I can over come 85 mg/Kg of bicarbonate in my water, because we had the same water last year. Last year we kept S and P quite high. The soil we started with was high on P, and we fed lots of Ca and S in various compounds throughout the season. I think balancing CO3 with SO4 and P2O5 is important. Your clay mix was also really high on S, which I think helps balance the built up carbonates.
 
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Space Case

Space Case

Well-known member
Veteran
I think astera's numbers are that S should equal 1/2 of P, but I think with carbonates present, you want S:p at 1, based on my own observations.
 
J

jidoka

Active member
They do not do AA 8.2 to determine cec and therefore lbs per acre. They use the Mehlich III numbers and then apply a fug factor to hit the numbers on 4 samples they get a yr.

What is the pH of that soil before the adds?
 
Space Case

Space Case

Well-known member
Veteran
jidoka said:
What is the pH of that soil before the adds?
Click to expand...

Which soil? The clay base? Didn't bother testing it, based it on your logan tests and recipe. I did add elemental sulfur, I think at 68g per cu yd, most of which I still see unbroken pellets of in the top few inches of the beds. I was in a fucking hurry in June, I didn't even mix that soil right, I used a backhoe and some shovels.

I do have a logan test from about 1-2 weeks after planting that says 7.1 pH. I did boost P in mid to late flower with good doses of phosphoric acid and a little bit of MKP.
 
N

neverforget4/20

Member
guys i normally use intl ag labs for my testing and amendments. I'm interested in getting a second opinion so I plan on submitting samples to Logan.

I've recycled my peat, vermicompost, perlite mix for a few grows. I work with about 50 gals of soil that i have amended and topped up with peat and i use about half at a time running 3 or 4,x 7 gals in my small flower room.

If i wanted to use this thread and the growers here as a resource moving forward which tests would be most useful?
 
J

jidoka

Active member
Space Case said:
Which soil? The clay base? Didn't bother testing it, based it on your logan tests and recipe. I did add elemental sulfur, I think at 68g per cu yd, most of which I still see unbroken pellets of in the top few inches of the beds. I was in a fucking hurry in June, I didn't even mix that soil right, I used a backhoe and some shovels.

I do have a logan test from about 1-2 weeks after planting that says 7.1 pH. I did boost P in mid to late flower with good doses of phosphoric acid and a little bit of MKP.
Click to expand...

If pH is still over 6.5 then yup. Hit it with gypsum
 
J

jidoka

Active member
user450414_pic1487570_1440540024.jpg

Hey Orechron. Take a look at this Tainio recommend and tell me what you think.

When he talks 75% he is talking about % of the total amount of ppms...not base saturation. Do you know how they achieve the ppm levels based on cec? Simple division says it is 200.42 ppm per 1 cec...but who knows based on one data point.

Anyways look it over and tell me what you think
 
R

reppin2c

Well-known member
Veteran
You guys always seem to be talking about what I'm thinking. Clay bases and how much peat is the tipping point, Bicarbonates etc. Either we don't have enough going on or the amount of kush in the air is giving mind melt abilities.

Sure breaks up my normal routine of answering lame construction questions and "yes the same thing we've been doing since July when we started harvesting".
 
Avenger

Avenger

Well-known member
Veteran
jidoka said:
View attachment 385666

Hey Orechron. Take a look at this Tainio recommend and tell me what you think.

When he talks 75% he is talking about % of the total amount of ppms...not base saturation. Do you know how they achieve the ppm levels based on cec? Simple division says it is 200.42 ppm per 1 cec...but who knows based on one data point.

Anyways look it over and tell me what you think
Click to expand...

Is this analysis from the same soil that any of the previous logan or spectrum analysis were done on?
 
S

slownickel

Active member
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Avenger said:
Is this analysis from the same soil that any of the previous logan or spectrum analysis were done on?
Click to expand...

Avenger,

The article you posted from promix is excellent.

Their data is very very revealing. Look at the density that they are talking about 0.1 g/cm3! This medium at 0.1 g/cm3 was 50% peat, 50% vermiculite. Once that MEDIUM gets past 0.2 g/cm3 it is reacting like a soil if we use this data. At 0.2 g/cm3 this "medium" has a nutrient density in the pot that is actually exceeding that of a soil!

What were you using as a mix again? And your conductivity? It was pretty high I remember, no?
 
S

slownickel

Active member
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Avenger said:
how does that medium ever get past 0.2 g/cm3? does it magically get denser?
Click to expand...

All the woowoo magic in the world gets that CEC up. Crab shells, lobster shells, calcium carbonate, dolomite, worm castings, last years mix, clay, zeolite, compost and pretty sure I missed half a dozen other pieces that folks are using to make their own "coots mix" or what ever.

How many guys in this forum are using 50/50 peat/vermiculite? Not many if any. Look at Jidokas numbers, he has 0.5 and 0.6 g/cm3 and those soil analysis and wants to apply MORE, not less!

We are talking about which direction are we going first, then let's talk about whose numbers we like.

You in?
 
Avenger

Avenger

Well-known member
Veteran
so the lab said that Jidoka's two soils weigh basically the same?

the BAS and the top soil(TS) mix?
 
biggreg

biggreg

Member
I've just started digging around the web for histosol fertility management. I want to cipher out what's different or what's similar in the soil chemistry between these organic matter based lightweight soils and mineral soils.
 
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