Advancing Eco Agriculture, Product Science

[Avenger]

I made a statement about seaweed extracts generally being higher in auxin like bioactivity than cytokin like bioactivity. you asked me where I got that idea from, so I provided a link to a research project that compared several seaweed extracts for cytokin and auxin bioactivity. This research was in agreement with my statement.

You implied the research that i linked was not reputable and provided a research project paper that you said was "real" and you tryed to convince me that it proved that my statement was incorrect. However you did not seem to understand what the research data showed, so I took the time to show you that it in fact agreed with my statement. So now you say that research ( that you brought to the discussion) is bad science and you are preaching to me about believing everything I read to be true.

You admit to never normalizing the data, so you could compare the relative auxin to cytokin bioactivity. You just looked at the picture and assumed it supported your view. (not good science)

Couldn't help but note that you didn't sum the cytokinins (not good science) and you chose to use one of the worst cytokinin sources in your example.

Im guessing you are refering to this picture:

There is nothing to sum, the indivdual vertical bars are not different cytokinins, they are diff concentrations of seaweed extract in the bioassay's working solution.

There are 3 different products produced from the species you asked about in the comparison paper. They all 3 have higher auxin than cytokin bioactivity.

 

[slownickel]

Let me find you some good literature to demonstrate the issue of cytokinin vs auxins in a well manufactured Ascophylum Nodosum.

 

[caterpillar710]

Can you just tel is the trade name of your 400ppm cytokinin product so we can buy it and send some in for analysis ?

Here's a few I found

http://www.noamkelp.com/sc16.html

http://www.davissongolf.com/NitroBrochDavisson_5_10.pdf

 

[jidoka]

Avenger...do you have any suggestions for actually maintaining cytokinin dominance? Do you think it matters in an organic (mostly) system

 

[slownickel]

Can you just tel is the trade name of your 400ppm cytokinin product so we can buy it and send some in for analysis ?

Here's a few I found

http://www.noamkelp.com/sc16.html

http://www.davissongolf.com/NitroBrochDavisson_5_10.pdf

There you go.... I was hunting for the source... good job.

They are one and the same, note the 400ppm of cytokinin with an EPA certificate... not sure what that is worth.

 

[slownickel]

In all fairness, it now looks like the science says that the cytokinin like response is coming from Betaines in ascophyllum nodosum.

Avenger, I think you are correct. I stand corrected. Not sure how these guys got the EPA to bite off on a 400 ppm certification. I have already inquired.

 

[caterpillar710]

There you go.... I was hunting for the source... good job.

They are one and the same, note the 400ppm of cytokinin with an EPA certificate... not sure what that is worth.

 

[slownickel]

Doctor !

 

[blkantha]

Cool
What factors is used to choose for cytokinin, auxin or gibberellins concentration during veg, flowering and fruiting stage both in foliar or soil amendment

 

[Avenger]

The high ppm cytokinin analysis are determined using the radish leaf expansion bioassay (Letham 1971).

This applies to the Williams et al. estimation for Maxicrop in 1981 and the NOAM kelp EPA labeled product, I'm unsure of the Nitrozyme product.

The lower estimations from the Comparison paper by Stirk and Staden used the soy bean seedling callus bioassay. (Miller, 1963)

The radish leaf expansion bioassay used by Williams et al. ,
(1981) to obtain these estimates of cytokinin content may
give an overestimation in cases where the media on which
the leaf disks are floated is high in salts, or of unknown
composition (Fox and Erion, 1975) link.

AUXTN AND CYTOKININ BIOASSAYS: A SHORT REVIEW

 

[caterpillar710]

Nitrozyme is the same as the Noam kelp


Straight up tells you on the NOAM site that they used radish leaf Fwiw

 

[Avenger]

As discussed by Jameson (1993), the radish cotyledon bioassay can return extremely high cytokinin values (up to 4,000 mg L−1of benzyl adenine equivalentsfor Maxicrop) when unfractionated extracts are tested, so cytokinin values obtained in this way must be considered unreliable. The same Maxicrop product showed cytokinins at 1 mg/L in the more specific soybean bioassay.

Seaweed extract stimuli in plant science and agriculture, Journal of Applied Phycology 23(3):371-393 · June 2011

 

[slownickel]

I was promised today some work on the 8 different cytokinins that are in Ascophyllum nodosum. Let's see what shows up.

 

[maxmurder]

caterpillar 710 or jidoka (or anyone else familiar with aea)-
do you have any aea weekly foliar mixes to prevent/battle botrytis?
my plants are pretty healthy but just having a bird break a branch i'll get botrytis at the node or if i leaf same thing- damn spores are just looking for any way to infect my plants...

 

[jidoka]

what is your sap pH? I would bet it is below 6.4 so you need base cations

 

[maxmurder]

thanks for your reply jidoka-
it's been foggy the last 2 days so i don't think i could get an accurate test.
i'm asking more for an ipm weekly spray from you guys cuz i know you guys were tight with gary and he seemed to have a remedy for most problems us dirtbag dopegrowers run into.
believe me if i had more time i would spend more time on the sap monitoring but there's only so many hours a day to work and i have other jobs i have to keep going to pay bills, gh and a dozen 4' full suns are for extra and looking for new moms for in's this winter.

 

[jidoka]

so aea's "rescue remedy" or ipm for mold would be based on getting base cations in the plant. If you had sap meters we could get more precise. But let me hunt down the general mold rescue

The other thing would be that weak plants dont feed microbes enough so the bacteria dont free enough minerals to feed the plants. If you use teas or tainio now would be a good time to use them heavy

 

[jidoka]

OK the foliar should be sprayed twice, 7 days apart and the fertigation should be done in between.

foliar per 1000 sq ft:
micro 5000 1/4 tsp
pepzyme 2 ml
the 3 c's at 12 ounces a piece...sea shield, sea crop and sea stim.
pht p and ca at 6 ounces each

Fertigation:
Sea Stim 6 ounces
Sea Crop and Sea Shield 12 ounces
pht ca 12 ounces
pht p 6 ounces

You can see one focus is to get the roots working again and second, to get a bunch of base cations, particularly Ca into the plant.

If you look this isn't too far from Accelerate. If you have it a couple of heavy doses sprayed and one fertigated can replace this.

This would normally be the time of year extra base cations are called for anyways

 

[maxmurder]

what is your sap pH? I would bet it is below 6.4 so you need base cations

sun was out today...

white lime kush

lower upper
pH 6.9 7.1
K 230 130
ca 38 28
brix 11 11

cherry x chem

lower upper
pH 7.1 7.3
K 310 240
ca 53 55
brix 11 16

og x chem

lower upper
pH 7.3 7.2
K 180 150
ca 45 26
brix 11 14

according to what leadsled taught me when he was up here a couple months ago- i'm good on K.
my brix seems good.
i'd love to lower my pH.
i forgot what ca diff is about...

 

[slownickel]

sun was out today...



i'd love to lower my pH.
i forgot what ca diff is about...

Max,

How are you measuring the pH of such a small quantity of sap?