A5 Haze S1

[The Zientist]

It’s D75 of flowering. They have been for a while under 11/13.

#1

One of the longer flowering siblings, ample inflorescence development from top to bot. Had to prune the main cola mid flowering, bummer.

 

[The Zientist]

#2 - The self-topper, sickle-variegation freakshow

Experienced extreme photo-damage. All variegated tissue went necrotic and regular one is severely compromised throughout the plant.

 

[The Zientist]

#4 - Highly variegated phenotype, extremely sensitive to high light intensity

Impressive structure and gives hints that under proper conditions can be a massive yielder. All variegated tissue went necrotic under 600-800 umol/m2/s.

 

[The Zientist]

#5 - 'Concave leaf' phenotype

Despite her gnarly leaves, she's been tolerating most of the bullshit I've been throwing at them, better than the rest at least. This one seems to lack any sort of variegation, if I recall correctly.
Another that could yield phenomenally under better care. Sandalwood can already be whiffed from this one.

 

[The Zientist]

#6

One of the longer flowering sibs. Stressed heavily from being placed directly under LED "hotspot" and growing wild. I didn't measure it at the time, but something around 1000+umol/m2/s. She's been moved around and placed under a better and more shaded angle and has been thriving better ever since.

At one point the main colas were smaller than the bottom buds. Sad story for this little one that seems to have potential.

 

[The Zientist]

A brief summary of what I’ve been able to observe throughtout this messy cycle:
-They hate the cold. Below 20-22ºC their metabolism really seems to slow down a bunch, and with that their capacity to sustain and make use of higher light intensity (ppfd).

-Cold water doesn’t do them any good neither, 16-18ºC range was enough for them to show a negative response.

- The variegated individuals are particularly prone to light damage. 600-800mmol was already too much at around 22-24ºC, leaves slightly colder by 1-2ºC. They also have increased sensitivity to both top dressing and liquid nutrients (even at low EC and slight increments).

-Negative response to slight top dressing under previously mentioned ppfd and temperature ranges.

-Wasn’t able to experiment with RH% ranges, 50-55% it’s the range they have.

Take these with a grain of salt. They are based on my limited personal observations under my own specific conditions, merely anecdotal evidence.

This cycle comes with plenty of mixed feelings. Worst looking plants I’ve had in 10 years, I couldn’t even move myself to repot them out of their initial 2L pots. Eventually I did, but way later than what I had initially planed, and that would have been optimal. And they don’t bother letting me know.

There’s a strong desire to give them a better setup to let them fully express in the future, instead of just having them barely surviving.
At the same time I’m glad I still went for them for this winter cycle under extreme conditions. I’ve been wanting to grow A5 progeny for a while, and even though precarious, it’s part of a process.
I was able to observe them growing way out of their environment of choice and it seems that I’ll be able to finished these 7 A5S1 cuts in a micro 90x60x90cm testing space.
No where near their full potential (lol, light years away), but should be enough to have a glimpse of something, if there’s anything special in the bunch. They’re all kept in the library and in a near future they’ll will be grown in my main flowering closet.

This crash test continues to yield important data, and will aid future growing cycles of these cuts (and similar types). I’ll be able to provide more adequate conditions by adapting growing parameters to their preference.

Next in line will be Purple Zamal x A5, but these will head to the main chamber. Those will be a wild journey, but I’m positive that the information harnesed from this cycle will come in handy.


Still need to picture #8.
Hope you enjoy this rundown, making (a lot of) mistakes so you don't have to.
tZ

 

[Hammerhead]

Your plants always look so happy! Best results I've had with haze A involves high temp/humidity loose soil well drained but shallow media letting feeder roots at top have full rein a mound works good. Slightly acidic root zone like a rhododendron. But the biggest single factor is keeping humidity above 60

Ph is the #1 reason why we get plant deficiency. Anytime I see yellowing it's most likely the PH is off causing a lockout on CA/MAG. Rarely is it from plants being hungry or needing a boost in Cal/Mag. Look at these charts. Anything below 5.7 in hydro and 6+ for soil will prevent Cal/mag from being available for uptake. It's why checking PH runoff can help a lot to see where your PH is. If I see 5 in my runoff or with a soil PH probe it's time to flush with PH 6-7 of RO or tap to bring the ph up.. Cal/mag is the #1 macro that gets locked out the most. I use a ph range of 5.5-6.5 regardless of the medium used. This PH range works in hydro or soil but!! do not feed the same PH every time. Let it drift in the proper range. Hydro sweet spot is 6 and soil is 6.3 IMO. Ive done a lot of PH tests on most soilless/soil mediums.. Foxfarms claims a 6.3-6.8 ph range in their Ocean Forest soil mix. I test 10 new bags all were 4.8-5.1. The only thing that makes sense is that range is their recommended feed PH to bring it up so plants can use it. My plants look happy because I make sure the PH range is good. It's also a pain in the ass to do this consistently in soil/soiless. Hydro is much easier to keep a good ph range.

 

[Piff_cat]

A brief summary of what I’ve been able to observe throughtout this messy cycle:
-They hate the cold. Below 20-22ºC their metabolism really seems to slow down a bunch, and with that their capacity to sustain and make use of higher light intensity (ppfd).

-Cold water doesn’t do them any good neither, 16-18ºC range was enough for them to show a negative response.

- The variegated individuals are particularly prone to light damage. 600-800mmol was already too much at around 22-24ºC, leaves slightly colder by 1-2ºC. They also have increased sensitivity to both top dressing and liquid nutrients (even at low EC and slight increments).

-Negative response to slight top dressing under previously mentioned ppfd and temperature ranges.

-Wasn’t able to experiment with RH% ranges, 50-55% it’s the range they have.

Take these with a grain of salt. They are based on my limited personal observations under my own specific conditions, merely anecdotal evidence.

This cycle comes with plenty of mixed feelings. Worst looking plants I’ve had in 10 years, I couldn’t even move myself to repot them out of their initial 2L pots. Eventually I did, but way later than what I had initially planed, and that would have been optimal. And they don’t bother letting me know.

There’s a strong desire to give them a better setup to let them fully express in the future, instead of just having them barely surviving.
At the same time I’m glad I still went for them for this winter cycle under extreme conditions. I’ve been wanting to grow A5 progeny for a while, and even though precarious, it’s part of a process.
I was able to observe them growing way out of their environment of choice and it seems that I’ll be able to finished these 7 A5S1 cuts in a micro 90x60x90cm testing space.
No where near their full potential (lol, light years away), but should be enough to have a glimpse of something, if there’s anything special in the bunch. They’re all kept in the library and in a near future they’ll will be grown in my main flowering closet.

This crash test continues to yield important data, and will aid future growing cycles of these cuts (and similar types). I’ll be able to provide more adequate conditions by adapting growing parameters to their preference.

Next in line will be Purple Zamal x A5, but these will head to the main chamber. Those will be a wild journey, but I’m positive that the information harnesed from this cycle will come in handy.


Still need to picture #8.
Hope you enjoy this rundown, making (a lot of) mistakes so you don't have to.
tZ

Your being hard on yourself I think. The plants aren't pretty but they all produced pretty good looking bud. Just getting 1 picky plant to produce is hard never mind all these different phenos. I bet the smoke is gonna be really good.
For example that concave pheno is found quite a bit In a5 progeny and I've yet to see any person conquer it! The craziest examples of those come out of cartel haze (a5 x cbh) it also shows up in the Doors and Mexican death sativa. The wide range of pistils you have is also very cool.
Did you take clones of the flower plants before flip? If possible I'd try to keep both sets- pre flip and reveg set before harvest. When u have thr extreme aneuploidity spread here they are very receptive to epi genetic adjustments. The stress the plants went thru will undoubtedly increase transcription rates resulting in heritable metabolite changes.

We really have no clue about true hormonal maturity especially in sativa I have definitely noticed maturing changes between seed mothers and re veg ones. Purple zamal x a5 is a great choice the purple zamal seems very different from tge other cuts.

 

[Piff_cat]

Ph is the #1 reason why we get plant deficiency. Anytime I see yellowing it's most likely the PH is off causing a lockout on CA/MAG. Rarely is it from plants being hungry or needing a boost in Cal/Mag. Look at these charts. Anything below 5.7 in hydro and 6+ for soil will prevent Cal/mag from being available for uptake. It's why checking PH runoff can help a lot to see where your PH is. If I see 5 in my runoff or with a soil PH probe it's time to flush with PH 6-7 of RO or tap to bring the ph up.. Cal/mag is the #1 macro that gets locked out the most. I use a ph range of 5.5-6.5 regardless of the medium used. This PH range works in hydro or soil but!! do not feed the same PH every time. Let it drift in the proper range. Hydro sweet spot is 6 and soil is 6.3 IMO. Ive done a lot of PH tests on most soilless/soil mediums.. Foxfarms claims a 6.3-6.8 ph range in their Ocean Forest soil mix. I test 10 new bags all were 4.8-5.1. The only thing that makes sense is that range is their recommended feed PH to bring it up so plants can use it. My plants look happy because I make sure the PH range is good. It's also a pain in the ass to do this consistently in soil/soiless. Hydro is much easier to keep a good ph range.

View attachment 18808857 View attachment 18808858

Thanks for the info I too put alot of importance in calcium. Being immobile and also rate limiting for growth pH lock out in calcium is deadly and frustrating. I like to use foliar with dolomite lime kelp hunic acid and protein hydrolosate. Under the leaves about a. Hour. Before lights on until bud growth kicks in. Kinda of like a calcium IV. More recently they've come up with calcium carbonate nano molecules small enough to fit thru the stomata for a type of foliar co2. It's cool stuff

 

[The Zientist]

Your being hard on yourself I think. The plants aren't pretty but they all produced pretty good looking bud. Just getting 1 picky plant to produce is hard never mind all these different phenos. I bet the smoke is gonna be really good.
For example that concave pheno is found quite a bit In a5 progeny and I've yet to see any person conquer it! The craziest examples of those come out of cartel haze (a5 x cbh) it also shows up in the Doors and Mexican death sativa. The wide range of pistils you have is also very cool.
Did you take clones of the flower plants before flip? If possible I'd try to keep both sets- pre flip and reveg set before harvest. When u have thr extreme aneuploidity spread here they are very receptive to epi genetic adjustments. The stress the plants went thru will undoubtedly increase transcription rates resulting in heritable metabolite changes.

We really have no clue about true hormonal maturity especially in sativa I have definitely noticed maturing changes between seed mothers and re veg ones. Purple zamal x a5 is a great choice the purple zamal seems very different from tge other cuts.

Thanks mate, I'm always like that with myself all the time I suppose.

Yes, every single A5S1 that I flowered has clones saved in the library. I'll reveg the longer flowering ones out of the flowering room, as space is always a constrain and I have a busy schedule ahead I can't reveg them all. There's also #7 that the clone didn't root in time but it's still kept.

Only #8, both the original motherplant and the cut, culled itself. The branches succumbed to their own weight, very strange phenomena. Not equipped to live that one.

But all these will get a second cycle before I cull any. That and an S2 (of the best only) and a few sib to sib crosses before anything gets out.
Despite all the mutations present, it's interesting to find that they are pretty sexually stable. Intersex flowers are yet to be found.

See you soon!
tZ

 

[RoyalFlush]

"Concave leaf" phenotype? You can't be serious.

 

[goingrey]

"Concave leaf" phenotype? You can't be serious.

I mainly see that kind of curl on plants that have grown out of the light. But only on the parts of the plant that are out of the light.

In @The Zientist's case, however, I would suspect overfertilization.

What do you think it is?

 

[Hammerhead]

What does Concave refer to? Any pics for reference? Clawing or conueing is a health issue, not a trait. The 3 I dont like look like they wont produce anything much better than hemp. None have any clawing or Conueing. They are stressed with yellow tips from a PH issue. Ill get pics later.


That clawing is 100% Nitrogen toxicity or over watering issue.

 

[The Zientist]

The 'concave' designation was a reference to @Piff_cat's comment, it's a peculiarity that was visible even back when the mother plant was still in veg. A rough leathery textured leaves that bent in a particular way.

Thanks to @RoyalFlush for bringing it to attention in such an elegant way, otherwise it could have been misunderstood.

The clawing response, that can be seen in many of my A5S1 (which is not what I meant by 'concave'), can happen due to a plethora of reasons as you all know. As @Hammerhead was saying, most commonly from N toxicity but also wind stress, overwatering and often lack or excess of proper lightning intensity to a combination of them all but not exclusively.
Thanks @goingrey for the pic. It illustrates it well. I've had that happen also recently on a portion of a single plant that went outside of light range, while the remainder kept perfect leaf anatomy.

In all honesty, I'm confident mine have had a chance to experience several of these during their lifetime, if not all combined. Feel free to guess.

Switched the light cycle from 11/13 to 10/14 today.
tZ

 

[The Zientist]

Also, @Piff_cat
Check out this stem root trait that you were talking before. It's happening on all 5x Purple Zamal x A5, while 20 other mothers from different varieties under the same conditions don't express such traits.
I'll keep this topic mostly about A5S1, if you guys want to check out of the Purple Zamal x A5 turn out, check the thread here:

Purple Zamal x A5 Haze

Hi everyone! 5 out of 5 Purple Zamal x A5 Haze seeds are out. They're next in line, along with a whole pack of PCK regulars. As always, germ rates are a-mazing with ACE, 12 out of 12 out as well. These seedlots have been sitting in my fridge for around 6 months (nothing to be worried about, as...

www.icmag.com

I'll try to keep things looking more appealing along that cycle.

 

[Piff_cat]

Wow that is def related to haze As lowland se asian origin. an abundance of rooting hormone production and is a good sign of health.
like i said in my post earlier once i dug thru all my plants that looked like this(mango haze, bandaid haze x punto biche punto rojo and outback haze x vietnam). i made sure none of the larger feeder roots were submerged loosened the media and kept the loosened media on the drier end of spectrum i noticed a huge increase in vigor within days.
i think alot of challenges with haze A could be related to this type of rooting system. alot of people(me included) tend to bury stems when transplanting and then get overwatered symptoms. i think its because these top feeder /structure anchor roots are blocked/overwelmed.. it seems like the top ones are designed to stabalize the plant as it sways back and forth. and in the second pic the horizontal yet shallow nature of this type of rooting system is on display. id say these plants have a hard time accessing oxygen in wet media that normally wouldnt bother a non haze plant.
looking forward to following these purple zamal a5s. theres a good strain name in there too bet they will be extreme! here a couple examples first is my plant then some landrace examples
outback haze x viet #2 golden calyx pheno most severe-

these pics are from the semi feral kullu landrace from north india a long flowering nld a real good pic

 

[Piff_cat]

I mainly see that kind of curl on plants that have grown out of the light. But only on the parts of the plant that are out of the light.

View attachment 18809081

In @The Zientist's case, however, I would suspect overfertilization.

What do you think it is?

it seems like a genetic sensitivity to air/water ratio which would fit in with your observation. plants out of the way would have less transpiration leaving more water in rootzone compared to oxygen. best way ive found to combat it is well drained rootzone in small containers frequent small feedings in high hunidity.
. smaller media area makes the manipulation and greater control over the air/water ratio. alot of times the first leaves at bottom will be normal but as they go farther up it gets worse. possibly further away from rootzone makes maintenance of water ratio supply more difficult. id imagine if these plants were in a very high humidity enviorment back home low humidity would force a close to the stomata(to prevent moisture loss) resulting in a water log of the roots. along these same lines low rootzone/nutrient water temperature could also lower evaporation at rootzone level. this would result in build up of Ec salt/low oxygen replenish just like your observation too.


doors male by mushashi

another doors

mexi death male
and heres the really weird one has alot more going on then just the concave leaves but must be genetic influenced from blackcatgenetics333

a5 x cuban black haze

 

[goingrey]

it seems like a genetic sensitivity to air/water ratio which would fit in with your observation. plants out of the way would have less transpiration leaving more water in rootzone compared to oxygen. best way ive found to combat it is well drained rootzone in small containers frequent small feedings in high hunidity.
. smaller media area makes the manipulation and greater control over the air/water ratio. alot of times the first leaves at bottom will be normal but as they go farther up it gets worse. possibly further away from rootzone makes maintenance of water ratio supply more difficult. id imagine if these plants were in a very high humidity enviorment back home low humidity would force a close to the stomata(to prevent moisture loss) resulting in a water log of the roots. along these same lines low rootzone/nutrient water temperature could also lower evaporation at rootzone level. this would result in build up of Ec salt/low oxygen replenish just like your observation too.


doors male by mushashi
View attachment 18809146 View attachment 18809147

another doors
View attachment 18809148
mexi death male
and heres the really weird one has alot more going on then just the concave leaves but must be genetic influenced from blackcatgenetics333

a5 x cuban black haze
View attachment 18809149

It's interesting how many different causes can have the same or very similar response.

Genetics will make a plant more or less prone to doing so, but in any case I'm sure it can handled with the right environment.

 

[Hammerhead]

Here is #11 which is still not fully recovered. She has colored up a lot. She was all yellow a month ago. Prob 2-3 more weeks to get her back to all green. She doesn't need anything but time and good feed PH.

 

[LostTribe]

Pics are making this thread take a century to load. The pics I see look great for 75 days. Are you on HIDs or LED?

As for clawing which I saw mentioned. I did some testing on OH, A5s1 and THH. They all preferred to be kept at .7-.8ec. Any higher they had tip burn. Salt based came out the best run I have had on pure haze/A5. Keep your Ph in check also. I range 5.7-6.1.