a wicked pulse

[DHF]

welcome!

this is the first time i have run co2. when you read the cannabis growers they are all almost universally pushing 1500 ppm and recommend keeping it between about 1300-1500 ppm. in fact, some generator controllers have non adjustable set points. typically at 1300-1500 ppm.

these people have a lot of credibility as they are making a living from it. people usually don't do things long term that are not productive in general.

we have the greenhouse growers of vegetables and ornamentals. most of these folks are running 900-1200 ppm and say that gets them the best growth or bang for the buck. they too have credibility.

then we have the scientists recommending levels from 750 ppm specifically for cannabis to about 1200 ppm for other crops.

in dr el sohly's paper from the u. of miss he reports the top photosynthetic rate for cannabis at 750 ppm. but that was the highest level he tested.

this is the big flaw in that research paper, but still we have his data showing that 750 ppm produced a very high rate.

so, i think i will set the cppm-4 to fire to 1500 ppm at lights on and then fire back to 1500 ppm every time it gets below 750 ppm during the period except the last 2 hrs.

i will have to observe this for a while to get it right, i'm sure. but it's a good starting point.

Hey Bro......I grew in a major metropolitan area in the south with bigtime steel and pipe factories pumpin out smog , and when Heath talked me into major air exchamge twice per minute over a decade ago , I bought some CO2 and Carbon Monoxide monitors and hung em in my rooms exactly like the ambient temp and hygrometer gauges for shits and giggles......and....

My ppm`s stayed in the 750 range 24/7/365 while the studies Heath read back in the day stated that pot can`t absorb and use anymore than 900 ppms across the board , and trust me.....

They shit out what they didn`t use during lights on , during lights off.......took me a yr or so to realize what was goin on from my hygrometer and CO2 monitors spiking during lights off , but guaranteed humidity and excess CO2 needs ta be exhausted during lights off.......the whole 12 hr period........

Not gonna say anything about how yas go about lumen penetration into said plants once broken down and made into their own canopy usin PAR readings , cuz I was taught 50 watts per sq ft , but rejected it......cuz ....

The first thing I did was question it and get my ass a digital light meter that delivered foot candles and lumen readings , cuz 34 watts per sq ft had served me well with krusty buckets and 2 1/2 lb plants EVERY run for many yrs.....but.....

When Heath talked me into runnin 50 per , the same cut that` I`d run for 12 yrs outside , and almost 10 yrs inside put out a product that looked nothing like I`d been used to and happy with for many yrs......and.....I`m talkin bout outdoors under the big metal halide in the sky.....so.....

Trichome frosted way denser donkey dicks that I`d never seen in all them yrs of runnin that same cut over and over.......

Just puttin it out there Bro.....Try it , experiment a lil.....what can it hurt.....I`m just sayin......

Enjoyin the show Brutha....Thanks for droppin the knowledge and spreadin the love.....Respect.....and ....

Peace....DHF.........

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, fred! unfortunately, i live in a place with really nice clean air with ambient co2 around 375 ppm, but when i move you can bet i'll look for some smoggy shithole to grow in. just joking of course but that is really funny that you could find places that were that high in co2 naturally, or unnaturally as it may be. what kind of factories am i looking for again?

but seriously folks! yeah right!

thanks for the input, especially on the co2 as i am a complete rookie here. i would prefer to give them as low a dose as possible for all the reasons.

i was thinking about the first burn coming on at lights on while the room was still cool. if i ran it up to 1500 initially it should take quite a while to get back down to 750. it would be nice to only have it fire 2-3 times per period. with a depletion period at the end before lights out i might be able to do this.

i will have the sensor mounted inside in the middle of the room and the controller outside so i can monitor dark period co2 levels.

this room is super tight. i built it thinking about co2 from the beginning. the door is going to use double gaskets, inside and out. it is built like a ship door so i can seal all the way around it without a crack at the bottom.

about the lights, are you talking about 50 watts per sq ft of floor space? or plant canopy? if it's plant canopy how do you calculate sq ft of canopy?

d9

 

[DHF]

hey, fred! unfortunately, i live in a place with really nice clean air with ambient co2 around 375 ppm, but when i move you can bet i'll look for some smoggy shithole to grow in. just joking of course but that is really funny that you could find places that were that high in co2 naturally, or unnaturally as it may be. what kind of factories am i looking for again?

but seriously folks! yeah right!

thanks for the input, especially on the co2 as i am a complete rookie here. i would prefer to give them as low a dose as possible for all the reasons.

i was thinking about the first burn coming on at lights on while the room was still cool. if i ran it up to 1500 initially it should take quite a while to get back down to 750. it would be nice to only have it fire 2-3 times per period. with a depletion period at the end before lights out i might be able to do this.

i will have the sensor mounted inside in the middle of the room and the controller outside so i can monitor dark period co2 levels.

this room is super tight. i built it thinking about co2 from the beginning. the door is going to use double gaskets, inside and out. it is built like a ship door so i can seal all the way around it without a crack at the bottom.

about the lights, are you talking about 50 watts per sq ft of floor space? or plant canopy? if it's plant canopy how do you calculate sq ft of canopy?

d9

Room sq ftg Bro....5000 watts per 10 x 10 room fer instance with 4 plants and 3 lights on each plant at all times....and....

I ran 4-600`s in the corners with a 1KW MH in the middle and still pulled 10 lb rooms consistently , so yas could see my reluctamce to up it to 50 watts per and spend more powerbill cash......but..

When I did with increased plant numbers and smaller flip rooms........It was daylight and dark......and....

I never looked back....

Peace....DHF.......

 

[Mister_D]

What kind of door has double gaskets all the way around? I want one

 

[disciple]

 

[delta9nxs]

Room sq ftg Bro....5000 watts per 10 x 10 room fer instance with 4 plants and 3 lights on each plant at all times....and....

I ran 4-600`s in the corners with a 1KW MH in the middle and still pulled 10 lb rooms consistently , so yas could see my reluctamce to up it to 50 watts per and spend more powerbill cash......but..

When I did with increased plant numbers and smaller flip rooms........It was daylight and dark......and....

I never looked back....

Peace....DHF.......

so, looking at my room, what kind of changes should i make? going by the 50 wpsf i would need 13,300 watts, which is out of the question for me here until i can generate.

i like the x pattern heath used for multiple small rooms but this is the room i have and will be living with for some time.

it's not the cost of electricity i'm concerned about. i have very low rates compared to nationwide averages.

 

[delta9nxs]

What kind of door has double gaskets all the way around? I want one

a door made from 2x4 and osb board stuffed full of fiberglass and coated with reflectix with commercial hinges and combinations of reflectix, strip gasket type seals and caulk. they are available at d9enterprises.kom

 

[Weed Killer]

welcome!

this is the first time i have run co2. when you read the cannabis growers they are all almost universally pushing 1500 ppm and recommend keeping it between about 1300-1500 ppm. in fact, some generator controllers have non adjustable set points. typically at 1300-1500 ppm.

these people have a lot of credibility as they are making a living from it. people usually don't do things long term that are not productive in general.

we have the greenhouse growers of vegetables and ornamentals. most of these folks are running 900-1200 ppm and say that gets them the best growth or bang for the buck. they too have credibility.

then we have the scientists recommending levels from 750 ppm specifically for cannabis to about 1200 ppm for other crops.

in dr el sohly's paper from the u. of miss he reports the top photosynthetic rate for cannabis at 750 ppm. but that was the highest level he tested.

this is the big flaw in that research paper, but still we have his data showing that 750 ppm produced a very high rate.

so, i think i will set the cppm-4 to fire to 1500 ppm at lights on and then fire back to 1500 ppm every time it gets below 750 ppm during the period except the last 2 hrs.

i will have to observe this for a while to get it right, i'm sure. but it's a good starting point.

I’ve got the chhc-4 and it has a 232 port and sentinel has software for data logging, I have tried several ppm’s and watched the humidity, at 1500 the humidity would rise and fall in a sign wave as the dehuy kicked on and off.

At 1000 ppm the humidity would stay more constant and the dehuy would run constantly.
I take this to mean the plants were transpiring at a more constant and efficient rate.

If you can log your humidity it may be a better way to find the best ppm for your plants.

Sweet build btw

 

[bad gas]

Hey, delta9nxs! Your construction process is exactly what I've been doing for the last 1 1/2 years. When starting from scratch, there's a lot of little crucial details that you need. Looks like you know exactly what you want and how to get it. Because I don't have your experience, I focused on flexibility in my room. I'll try several methods. For example, I think I can grow an upside-down plant. You guys will never look at your ceilings the same again.

Yeah, I made the vertical light mover but I'm not going to use it. I'm going to use more light sources instead. I read here on ICMAG about people getting better yields by using more lights of less wattage. Maybe light can be spread too thin with the mover? Create larf. We truly feed them light. Like your multiple angle lighting idea.

I also read about how a plant sends out feeler roots to guage the container size which , in turn, dictates plant size. [my interpretation] I'm currently in 5 gal buckets for veg. For flower, I'm going to put my 2 1/2 plants in a kiddy pool filled appropriately with a properly ammended soil. Crazy, no? The Pablos has had an effect on my gardening attitude. I like that guy!

Hey, Imaginary friend! Your advice about a philosophy was some of the best I've gotten. My garden is more harmonious because of it. My gerbil died. I'm too heartbroken to replace him. He was sure sprightly, though.

Everybody have a nice day and stay safe. bg

 

[Mister_D]

a door made from 2x4 and osb board stuffed full of fiberglass and coated with reflectix with commercial hinges and combinations of reflectix, strip gasket type seals and caulk. they are available at d9enterprises.kom

Sounds fancy . So then what type of strip gasket did you use? Love a lil DIY myself

 

[headband 707]

wow bra sweet setup you got going there props headband 707

 

[delta9nxs]

Quotes by disciple
“how did i miss the shots of your awesome new pump/control chamber?”


I think you've been smoking dope again.

“just wanted to say i found that with (16) plants connected to one pump/control res and a 1800 GPH, I could either have an optimum air gap or enough juice depth so each PPK full of media got a thorough soaking during each pulse. this was with the control/pump res level with the PPK's (both on the floor)”

i had perlite/coco and you've got turface (faster b/c no coco) so you might be ok? i wanted the solution in the root zone to be as uniform as could be so i wanted adequate volume delivered during each pulse. i got this to happen but at the expense of the air gap... so i could either have it too wet or not wet enough...

maybe a slower pump would be better? you also have the option of removing some cinder blocks if you find you need more depth but then you'd have to raise up the small sterilite float valve container.

i found that (16) well lit trees in PPK's a little much for one pump/control res.... I know your air gap will be dialed and can't wait to see the system in action.”


The solution to your solution problem is more solution. For the “high flow” version you need to size your reservoir appropriately for the volume you need. All needed liquid will be delivered in a few seconds before much return action can take place. I think pump capacity around 100 gph per plant site is good on this version, so your pump is fine. We know that we are going to run a 4” air gap. This creates a 7” water level in a 3.5 gal bucket. You adjust the float to achieve this. Calculating the volume of my reservoir container I find that it holds approx 19 gals at 7”. I know I want to deliver 32 oz's minimum per pulse and with 24 plant sites that is 6 gal. 6 gal will draw the container down less than 2 inches but the calculation should be made off the largest projected pulse. In my case around a third of a gal, say no more than 44 oz's. And that is 8.25 gal. A little less than 2.5” will be drawn down during a pulse event. Leaving 4.5” operating depth for the pump. If your pump starves then you need more water.

Normally, it is simpler for all containers in the “floor” or “contaminated” part of the system to be at the same level. Plant reservoirs and control/pump reservoir. There can be exceptions, if necessary I could have left my main res on the floor and raised the float control box inside it upward the necessary amount. Creating a higher level matching the level needed in the plant reservoirs. and more volume. If you had to run a taller, narrower container for floor space considerations, for example. Instead I raised the main res up on the blocks which coincidentally matched the caddy height exactly. Lucky Bastard strikes again.

Another aspect to this is the way it affects the input of solution into the main reservoir. At the onset of a pulse event the level in the float control box, the main res, and the plant reservoirs will be at equilibrium.

The pump fires and creates a large, rapid draw down of the solution in the main res. With my set up it would be slightly less than 2” and exactly 6 gal. Because of the 3/32” hole in the lower corner of the float control box the rate at which the level in the control box is drawn down is much slower. This correspondingly slows the input of fresh nutrient solution.

The level in the control box will continue to fall in a controlled fashion until that level is met by the rising level of the solution in the main res.

So, the point of this is that the more volume you have at operational depth (7”) the less the level falls during each pulse event and this is a beneficial management tool as it, in conjunction with the float valve and the 3/32” hole, functions as a metered nutrient injector.

Wider, shorter = greater surface area therefore greater volume at any given depth, therefore less draw down during a pulse event. Less draw down = more controlled input and greater solution stability.

This could be made to work with any amount of draw down if you knew what size hole to drill. But there are physical limitations to this. The greater the amount of draw down the smaller the hole needs to be. 3/32” is already very small. I ran one smaller than this in my old system and it would get clogged occasionally. I found the 3/32” hole to be more reliable. (some holes more reliable than others?)

“it would be so cool if you'd do a preliminary run down on how you're going to get into espalier form... i see that some of your little ones have been totally stripped (with the exception of the end pair of small fans to keep the limb viable) and then you have others with some leaves left on down lower to get the lowers to catch up while the upper part of the limbs re-leaf....”


You're really into this pot growing thing, aren't you?

“any thoughts on how to get the branches to inter-mesh with the neighboring plant while accounting for the secondary and tertiary growth that is going to fill in the space and make this difficult?”


vague ones.

“I'm trying to figure out if i push the whole plant back behind the screen and let it grow up against it.... or do I pull it back as it grows up in front of it..... more than a few plants so labour counts! I've just dusted off pH's old scrog threads from '98 to read through...”


really, I have very limited experience with scrogging, horizontal or vertical. I did a few limited small closet scrogs many years ago. I did learn not to wait too long to flip.

But scrogging is not really how I see this working. I'll pull the plants back to the screen and tie the main laterals horizontal with gaps for the next plants matching horizontal lateral. Offsetting them. If I use 4' fencing with 6” mesh I should be able to run out up to five laterals per plant side a foot apart with the next plants in between. It won't be as neat as it sounds.

“peace”


same to you, but more of it!

 

[delta9nxs]

I’ve got the chhc-4 and it has a 232 port and sentinel has software for data logging, I have tried several ppm’s and watched the humidity, at 1500 the humidity would rise and fall in a sign wave as the dehuy kicked on and off.

At 1000 ppm the humidity would stay more constant and the dehuy would run constantly.
I take this to mean the plants were transpiring at a more constant and efficient rate.

If you can log your humidity it may be a better way to find the best ppm for your plants.

Sweet build btw

thank you! more information! what was your rh at 1000ppm. i may yet regret not buying the chhc-4.

running at 1500 what was your replenish point? how much did you allow it to fall from 1500 ppm when you were experiencing the sine wave effect. what was the variance in rh at these parameters. and finally, what was the duration of the wave effect. i mean, did it occur in parallel with the ppm changes? thank you in advance!

 

[delta9nxs]

wow bra sweet setup you got going there props headband 707

thanks, nice to see you here!

 

[catalyte]

one stupid question.....

why the heck do you call your hydro system Passive Plant Killer? LOLOL

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Today is tuesday, september 22 [2009]. on the 18th I put a 6” clone into a device that can only be described as a “non-circulating, stagnant, hydroponic, capillary wick plus capillary medium with root sump, evapo-transpirator”. Or possibly it will be known as the “passive plant killer”. That's it, the PPK device. Sounds like a grade “b” horror flick. As I have never grown anything in it this just might turn out that way.

But the fucking plants grew.

It's like naming a kitten Greg and later finding out it's a girl.

Now what the fuck are you going to do?

 

[disciple]

 

[DHF]

so, looking at my room, what kind of changes should i make? going by the 50 wpsf i would need 13,300 watts, which is out of the question for me here until i can generate.

i like the x pattern heath used for multiple small rooms but this is the room i have and will be living with for some time.

it's not the cost of electricity I`m concerned about. i have very low rates compared to nationwide averages.

This is your show Bro....don`t change a thing cuz we`re learnin shit.....

I`m ready ta see all those bitches in bondage with each plants limbs strapped to the screen interlaced above and below each other side by side to create that perfect sideways canopy dialed and hoonin........

The watts per sq ft can be done side by side once yas have some leeway to experiment if yas feel the need....I`d NEVER tell yas what to do with your mad scientist ass , only suggest what worked for us old heads for many yrs with dialed results that did this without a whole lotta knowledge and mostly on the job training.....

Love your shit Bro....Wanna see yas KILL it....if anything needs tweakin , I`m here ta help .......environment`s everything.......especially with "insufficient wattage"..........

See how I threw that 1 in there while bein diplomatic ?......LOL.....

D9...Rock this shit.....already told the GF I was gonna run some headies in a plant murderin bucket , and she said why kill em......Females..........

Whatchas gonna do....anyways.....

Respect....Freds...........

 

[Weed Killer]

thank you! more information! what was your rh at 1000ppm. i may yet regret buy not buying the chhc-4.

running at 1500 what was your replenish point? how much did you allow it to fall from 1500 ppm when you were experiencing the sine wave effect. what was the variance in rh at these parameters. and finally, what was the duration of the wave effect. i mean, did it occur in parallel with the ppm changes? thank you in advance!

I have the controller set to fuzzy logic mode (bottle) so it kicks on and off a lot, I have the dehuy set to 65 for the first three weeks and 50 for the last 6.

The sine wave was almost an inverse if the co2 wave, the duration was about 5 minutes.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

who names a kitten Greg?

that's like naming your cat Robert or your dog Michael.

So what should have I named my pets?

wouldn't it be easier to just come along and pull shoots back out of a square and pop 'em in the next one? I had this vision of tying back the branch and it arcing back out within one photoperiod. then tying it back again, and again and again... and again.

In my personal experience, I prefer tying the plant down/back to the screen, rather than pushing it through the screen. It makes repositioning possible later with a few snips, and for me consistently results in less accidental damage to the plant.

I

cannot imagine what getting the plants into 2 planes only (vertical and horizontal, X and Y - no Z) is going to add... this is so cool!

There should be a z that is starts at minimum productive light and ends at photo-inhibition--that is, the material growing off the screen should be 6-8" thick.