muchas gracias!!!
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a ppk for a 6 plant limit
- Thread starter delta9nxs
- Start date
muchas gracias!!!
yes it does. thats the key, the PWT is still there! can't get away from that but we can effect where it is in relation to the main root chamber which is the tub by using the tailpipe
Snook
Still Learning
make perfect sense now but I never thought of it that way...
so lets say for the sake of mediocrity, my gap is 3.5". This represents the bottom of the pot at the bottom of the 6" wick . This puts the wick 2.5" into the bottom rez (BR). During the pulsing or flooding, this wick will, I guessing, be out of the water in the BP and pulse nutes will freely flow till equilibrium is reached again in couple minutes and the flow slows... Capillary action of turface is 6"... so 2.5" of media is being kept wet in the top pot by capillary action.., then, 4.5" more media.. equaling the 7" as prescribed by Dr9.. regardless of height or width.. the 4.5" of media is kept wed by pulsing or flooding... otay, panky.. thanks...
so lets say for the sake of mediocrity, my gap is 3.5". This represents the bottom of the pot at the bottom of the 6" wick . This puts the wick 2.5" into the bottom rez (BR). During the pulsing or flooding, this wick will, I guessing, be out of the water in the BP and pulse nutes will freely flow till equilibrium is reached again in couple minutes and the flow slows... Capillary action of turface is 6"... so 2.5" of media is being kept wet in the top pot by capillary action.., then, 4.5" more media.. equaling the 7" as prescribed by Dr9.. regardless of height or width.. the 4.5" of media is kept wed by pulsing or flooding... otay, panky.. thanks...
a little math illustrating the difference:
in these 7 gal tuff tubs there is an average inside diameter of 18". not quite accurate because of the curvature at the bottom but close enough.
so 18/2=radius 9", 9x9=81 radius squared x 3.1416 pi= 254.46 x 1.5 (approx height of pwt) = 381.70 volume of pwt before subtracting for air filled porosity. giving afp an approx 30% leaves 70% actual media volume so 381.7 x .3 leaves actual pwt volume of approx 114.51 cu inches or divide by 231 (number of cu in in a gal) leaving an actual liquid volume of 0.495 gal.
using the same math on the 3" id tailpiece we have an actual liquid volume pwt of .013 gal.
.495 of a gal is 63.36 oz's and .013 is 1.66 oz's.
so moving the pwt downward into the tailpiece reduces the pwt to 2.61% of original volume reducing hormonal feedback by the same ratio.
we run the media depth of these tubs at about 5" which is about 5 galllons. without the tailpiece we would have a waterlogged area of approx 33% of container capacity or 1.65 gallons. instead, we get superb o2 levels all the way to the bottom.
studies have shown rapidly reduced o2 levels in containers with depths greater than about 7".
this further enhances oxygen in the root zone by allowing us to use a shallower container than normal in the world of horticulture.
if you were to water a plant in a conventional container 24 times a day you would have the roots continuously sitting in a water soaked layer of medium with no afp.
i think that this sends some kind of hormonal signal to slow growth in order to avoid root damage due to anoxia.
also the act of watering refreshes gases in the root zone, insuring the continuous presence of 02.
again, we are not creating a mysterious new stimuli for growth, we are simply removing obstacles to growth.
of course, this is all just theory and i can't prove any of it other than by monitoring plant speed of growth and final mass.
in these 7 gal tuff tubs there is an average inside diameter of 18". not quite accurate because of the curvature at the bottom but close enough.
so 18/2=radius 9", 9x9=81 radius squared x 3.1416 pi= 254.46 x 1.5 (approx height of pwt) = 381.70 volume of pwt before subtracting for air filled porosity. giving afp an approx 30% leaves 70% actual media volume so 381.7 x .3 leaves actual pwt volume of approx 114.51 cu inches or divide by 231 (number of cu in in a gal) leaving an actual liquid volume of 0.495 gal.
using the same math on the 3" id tailpiece we have an actual liquid volume pwt of .013 gal.
.495 of a gal is 63.36 oz's and .013 is 1.66 oz's.
so moving the pwt downward into the tailpiece reduces the pwt to 2.61% of original volume reducing hormonal feedback by the same ratio.
we run the media depth of these tubs at about 5" which is about 5 galllons. without the tailpiece we would have a waterlogged area of approx 33% of container capacity or 1.65 gallons. instead, we get superb o2 levels all the way to the bottom.
studies have shown rapidly reduced o2 levels in containers with depths greater than about 7".
this further enhances oxygen in the root zone by allowing us to use a shallower container than normal in the world of horticulture.
if you were to water a plant in a conventional container 24 times a day you would have the roots continuously sitting in a water soaked layer of medium with no afp.
i think that this sends some kind of hormonal signal to slow growth in order to avoid root damage due to anoxia.
also the act of watering refreshes gases in the root zone, insuring the continuous presence of 02.
again, we are not creating a mysterious new stimuli for growth, we are simply removing obstacles to growth.
of course, this is all just theory and i can't prove any of it other than by monitoring plant speed of growth and final mass.
disboikrazy
Member
Long time stalker here so don't mind this being my 1st post since I became a member. I finally understand how this PPK system work n decided on building one but I have some questions to complete my vision on how to go about doing it.
I have run multiple system already n wanna get on the bandwagon of just blazing one to chill with the females instead of always putting in work to make em happy. (PPK system)
What's the updated currently medium people uses now for the system?
Can I use something else beside MVP?
I called multiple landscaping company for turface "MVP" and no one seem to carry that brand around here. They have other turface in stock though like pro sport.
Where do I buy the 7 gal tuff tub?
I'm unable to locate any that size online. Maybe it's been discontinued.
I have run multiple system already n wanna get on the bandwagon of just blazing one to chill with the females instead of always putting in work to make em happy. (PPK system)
What's the updated currently medium people uses now for the system?
Can I use something else beside MVP?
I called multiple landscaping company for turface "MVP" and no one seem to carry that brand around here. They have other turface in stock though like pro sport.
Where do I buy the 7 gal tuff tub?
I'm unable to locate any that size online. Maybe it's been discontinued.
John Deere landscape stores sell Turface MVP as All Sports Pro. Same stuff but different size bag and branding. If you want turface either one is equivalent. You must screen either type for ppk
Thats my help for all you shoppers tell the next guy....
Thats my help for all you shoppers tell the next guy....
disboikrazy
Member
Thanks for the response! I'll just pick up the all sport brand then. This is the last ingredient to complete the system.
av8or
Member
Ewing irrigation in the northwest carries it. I'd check with your local baseball field groundskeeper. I bet he knows exactly where turface mvp is in your area. You can use perlite, coco, pumice and shop dry (Napa 8822). They all require different feed schedules but all have proven successful in a ppk.
disboikrazy
Member
I'm located in the Midwest where the baseball team salary cap is second to top! What the difference between pro sport vs MVP in ur opinion av8?
Looking to pick some up today if its almost the same. I'm so ready to get this system up n going.
By the way let me give my thank to u all d9, av8, mrK n the rest I didnt name for all the helpful info n responses!!
Looking to pick some up today if its almost the same. I'm so ready to get this system up n going.
By the way let me give my thank to u all d9, av8, mrK n the rest I didnt name for all the helpful info n responses!!
disboikrazy
Member
I got these custom tubs that I'm planning to use. Hopefully they'll work do way I assume this PPK system worked
MVP or All Sports Pro both are the same. But just like with 8822 you must screen and rinse it well to remove as much fines as possible. Read D9s posts on air filled porosity etc... i screen with a nylon sports bag stretched accross a 5 gal bucket. What is on top of the nylon screen gets shucked over to to 5 gal keep bucket to be washed. What falls thru the screen into the bucket gets tossed when i get enough in there. I screen only a little at a time and i judge with my eyes when im done. I work thru a bag by hand couple scoops at a time. Im not doing alot tho but with my method i can get a large particle size which gives a bit more porosity. Prolly takes an hour or more a bag since im smoking while i do it.... lol. U understand i only have 4 sites.... pretty much in maintenance mode now and going to get a couple bags of all sports soon to top up my supply for the winter
av8or
Member
Screening turface like mckush says is only.necessary if you use only turface. I found it to be extremely labor intensive so I just cut the turface 50/50 with perlite. My air filled porosity is fine and I don't need to screen the stuff. Also, it makes the plant buckets a bit lighter not having all that turface in there.
disboikrazy
Member
Pardon me but gonna ask some rookies questions. Since I'm going to construct this PPK system to what I already currently have (room).haha don't mind me as I'm still a rookie compare to you guys!!
I have 2 9x9 room. Since I'm plant count isn't a issue, for this size room what plant count is best with the least amount of veg time? I'm leaning toward 6-10.
I got 5 1000 vertical umbrella. Is this ok or vertical bare bulb down on the side better?
What ya think is the best method to go about doing this....
To veg in PPK bloom room perpetual style, or separate veg room for just veg in PPK?
At what height of plant do u decided to flip em? Is this decided by height, structure of plant, how old they are, or something else?
Just trying to understand what determines u guys to "know when to flip them."
Structure of d9 plant is amazing! I was never able to created a female even close to that.
I have 2 9x9 room. Since I'm plant count isn't a issue, for this size room what plant count is best with the least amount of veg time? I'm leaning toward 6-10.
I got 5 1000 vertical umbrella. Is this ok or vertical bare bulb down on the side better?
What ya think is the best method to go about doing this....
To veg in PPK bloom room perpetual style, or separate veg room for just veg in PPK?
At what height of plant do u decided to flip em? Is this decided by height, structure of plant, how old they are, or something else?
Just trying to understand what determines u guys to "know when to flip them."
Structure of d9 plant is amazing! I was never able to created a female even close to that.
disboikrazy
Member
What the best method to go about training the girls or do I let them get the full growth without any stress. I know people will argue about what, which style of training is better but just wanna hear opinions on it. I think I remember seeing on someone pic that tomato cage was used to support the females n other pic trellis was applied.
Topping them, LST, lollipop-ing?
Topping them, LST, lollipop-ing?
av8or
Member
Good question, actually. Everyone is going to have a different answer for you so don't feel like this is a silly, rookie question. Most growers on forums such as these are here to exchange ideas and experiences. One of my favorite things to do is design the "best" grow room given certain constraints. Best is defined differently for everyone and so everyone has a different answer as to how that space with those lights and (no) plant count. Here are some of my thoughts...
Go check out the "plants in ppk's" thread. I've got a bunch of my plants there for your reference. A bunch of us do, actually.
You should decide what your goal is. Mass production, crazy difficult strains, cost efficiency, just for fun, personal stash, etc..
The ppk allows us to kinda do it all, more or less. It's a rigorous grow system meaning that when you get it set up proper the plants tend to grow incredibly fast. I prefer bigger plants that fill out a 3-dimensional canopy with dropped vertical lights in between the plants (Heath Robinson style). I run the 5 light X pattern that Heath introduced us to years ago. My center light is always Metal Halide, too. That being said, I'm currently building my first flower room with DE lights. Overhead lighting requires a flatter canopy for maximum results. DEs supposedly now allow yields on a flat canopy in the same space as those of us vertical growers are getting with big bushy plants.
So the question really might be, what interests you more? Does the thought of running a scrog over multiple ppk sites all under horizontal overhead lighting excite you? Or maybe you prefer the idea of growing larger, but fewer, plants with dangling lights in the room?
I'm doing both but just starting with the horizontal lighting. I will say that there's way less work on a tree size plant for yield vs the hundred small plants you'd have to propagate to get the same yield. However, when I lose one plant I lose a couple pounds. If I grew a hundred, my success rate over time would likely be higher. That is not to say that the yield would be greater, but you'd be taking less mathematical risk with many small plants. Maybe this is arrogant, but I prefer to just be a better grower and not lose big plants anyway. Those who pay close attention might be wondering about that gigantic mother plant I attempted to flower. I found out that there is a limit to size plant a 7 gallon bucket can grow. It was more an experiment anyway, not a production plant.
Theory aside, this is what I'd do if I were you:
Put 4 ppk sites in each room and run the X pattern with 5 lights in each. If you only have the 5 total lights, veg with one in the middle (vertical) of the 4 ppk veg sites and put the other 4 vertical in the corners of the room. Then the 4 flower sites will have "coverage" on two sides of the plant each. Then, when you crop, spend every penny you make on more lights and fill all the remaining positions in both rooms. Run less light on smaller plants (veg). More light is not always better.
I bet you could pull a pound every two weeks with that setup. Easy. I know because I did it already. "Av8or's first grow" or something like that in the search bar.
Plant training....
Small plants are for someone else to comment on but what I'm finding grows the fastest with the best yields on my plants thus far is as follows:
From clone -
I wait till the plant has 6-7 nice lateral branches growing. The plant is usually between 9-15" tall (strain depending). I top the tiny apical shoot on the meristem and let the plant come up naturally from then on. Some plants require some LST method of keeping the top remaining laterals from growing straight up. The idea is to let each of the 6 branches fill the 60° space they naturally occupy. The 7th lateral (almost always the bottom one) I chop later for a nice, healthy clone. This way I don't have to wait for the top of the plant to grow an extra 8" for me to chop it and let the plant bush out. I like to yank fan leaves, starring at the bottom-most inner portion of the plant, chasing the branches up and out, leaving only 8-10" of canopy depth maintaining fan leaves. Cut all sucker shoots off the interior as you go. If it won't reach the canopy, cut her off. We aren't getting paid to grow branches. Finally, given your space and a one pound plant in this system with most strains I've run, flip that lady around 24-30". If she's a stretchy strain, flip shorter. Try to shape the best canopy that fills out your space. Let the genetics and superior environmental control do the rest. Your grow system ought not impede the plant's genetic potential. In my opinion, that is the goal of most growers: trying to reach the plant's potential.
From seed -
Take a clone from your best seedling during the pheno hunt, root it, then see above.
In flower I continue to pluck fan leaves. I'd like to tell you that I measure each one and yank it 20 days after it reaches full size, but I don't. Just keep chasing the fans out to the canopy depth mentioned above. Then, only yank ones that obstruct light directly on an adjacent bud site. Try not to take fan leaves that emanate from buds. If there's a little stem before the bud, go ahead.
I grow 2 pounders through my perpetual systems with two layers of that 4" plastic plant trellis netting stuff. I hate it but it works well and is super cheap. I toss a layer on at the end of veg and end of stretch. The plant supports itself. It's a bitch to cut the plant out of it when harvesting. Kinda.
That's it boss. That's how I do it in all but my newest room (I have a few). Like I said, go check out all the other ppk plant pics in that thread. See which ones you like and copy that person.
I hope that helps. Feel free to ask as many detailed question as you want. Just be sure to get an idea as to what you're trying to accomplish first. Then we should all be able to get you crackin in no time.
Go check out the "plants in ppk's" thread. I've got a bunch of my plants there for your reference. A bunch of us do, actually.
You should decide what your goal is. Mass production, crazy difficult strains, cost efficiency, just for fun, personal stash, etc..
The ppk allows us to kinda do it all, more or less. It's a rigorous grow system meaning that when you get it set up proper the plants tend to grow incredibly fast. I prefer bigger plants that fill out a 3-dimensional canopy with dropped vertical lights in between the plants (Heath Robinson style). I run the 5 light X pattern that Heath introduced us to years ago. My center light is always Metal Halide, too. That being said, I'm currently building my first flower room with DE lights. Overhead lighting requires a flatter canopy for maximum results. DEs supposedly now allow yields on a flat canopy in the same space as those of us vertical growers are getting with big bushy plants.
So the question really might be, what interests you more? Does the thought of running a scrog over multiple ppk sites all under horizontal overhead lighting excite you? Or maybe you prefer the idea of growing larger, but fewer, plants with dangling lights in the room?
I'm doing both but just starting with the horizontal lighting. I will say that there's way less work on a tree size plant for yield vs the hundred small plants you'd have to propagate to get the same yield. However, when I lose one plant I lose a couple pounds. If I grew a hundred, my success rate over time would likely be higher. That is not to say that the yield would be greater, but you'd be taking less mathematical risk with many small plants. Maybe this is arrogant, but I prefer to just be a better grower and not lose big plants anyway. Those who pay close attention might be wondering about that gigantic mother plant I attempted to flower. I found out that there is a limit to size plant a 7 gallon bucket can grow. It was more an experiment anyway, not a production plant.
Theory aside, this is what I'd do if I were you:
Put 4 ppk sites in each room and run the X pattern with 5 lights in each. If you only have the 5 total lights, veg with one in the middle (vertical) of the 4 ppk veg sites and put the other 4 vertical in the corners of the room. Then the 4 flower sites will have "coverage" on two sides of the plant each. Then, when you crop, spend every penny you make on more lights and fill all the remaining positions in both rooms. Run less light on smaller plants (veg). More light is not always better.
I bet you could pull a pound every two weeks with that setup. Easy. I know because I did it already. "Av8or's first grow" or something like that in the search bar.
Plant training....
Small plants are for someone else to comment on but what I'm finding grows the fastest with the best yields on my plants thus far is as follows:
From clone -
I wait till the plant has 6-7 nice lateral branches growing. The plant is usually between 9-15" tall (strain depending). I top the tiny apical shoot on the meristem and let the plant come up naturally from then on. Some plants require some LST method of keeping the top remaining laterals from growing straight up. The idea is to let each of the 6 branches fill the 60° space they naturally occupy. The 7th lateral (almost always the bottom one) I chop later for a nice, healthy clone. This way I don't have to wait for the top of the plant to grow an extra 8" for me to chop it and let the plant bush out. I like to yank fan leaves, starring at the bottom-most inner portion of the plant, chasing the branches up and out, leaving only 8-10" of canopy depth maintaining fan leaves. Cut all sucker shoots off the interior as you go. If it won't reach the canopy, cut her off. We aren't getting paid to grow branches. Finally, given your space and a one pound plant in this system with most strains I've run, flip that lady around 24-30". If she's a stretchy strain, flip shorter. Try to shape the best canopy that fills out your space. Let the genetics and superior environmental control do the rest. Your grow system ought not impede the plant's genetic potential. In my opinion, that is the goal of most growers: trying to reach the plant's potential.
From seed -
Take a clone from your best seedling during the pheno hunt, root it, then see above.
In flower I continue to pluck fan leaves. I'd like to tell you that I measure each one and yank it 20 days after it reaches full size, but I don't. Just keep chasing the fans out to the canopy depth mentioned above. Then, only yank ones that obstruct light directly on an adjacent bud site. Try not to take fan leaves that emanate from buds. If there's a little stem before the bud, go ahead.
I grow 2 pounders through my perpetual systems with two layers of that 4" plastic plant trellis netting stuff. I hate it but it works well and is super cheap. I toss a layer on at the end of veg and end of stretch. The plant supports itself. It's a bitch to cut the plant out of it when harvesting. Kinda.
That's it boss. That's how I do it in all but my newest room (I have a few). Like I said, go check out all the other ppk plant pics in that thread. See which ones you like and copy that person.
I hope that helps. Feel free to ask as many detailed question as you want. Just be sure to get an idea as to what you're trying to accomplish first. Then we should all be able to get you crackin in no time.
disboikrazy
Member
Wow!! Thanks for the throughly detail response av8!!
Yes I only have 5 lights at the moment, actually I only have 2 1000 ballasts on a flip box & 2 600 lumatek ballasts. Funds to buy more ballasts isn't the issue.
So you'll saying that 5 1000 will work inside the one 1 room which is 9x9?
The only things is, I'm concerned about is running high watts.
I don't know what's the amount of wattage to run to be safe without any scrutinized.
Does anyone have a idea amount? Please chime in.
Basically my current setup is under current dwc 6 site each with 2 1000 umbrella in each room flowering. Timing is on the flipbox which is 12/12.
Jack/nit is still the best for ppk?
Yes I only have 5 lights at the moment, actually I only have 2 1000 ballasts on a flip box & 2 600 lumatek ballasts. Funds to buy more ballasts isn't the issue.
So you'll saying that 5 1000 will work inside the one 1 room which is 9x9?
The only things is, I'm concerned about is running high watts.
I don't know what's the amount of wattage to run to be safe without any scrutinized.
Does anyone have a idea amount? Please chime in.
Basically my current setup is under current dwc 6 site each with 2 1000 umbrella in each room flowering. Timing is on the flipbox which is 12/12.
Jack/nit is still the best for ppk?
disboikrazy
Member
Thanks again av8!! Work in progress will start soon!!
disboikrazy
Member
Im planning to convert my under current system into the ppk. Got 27 gal res linked to 6x 5gal buckets with 1 1/2 pvc.
I'm thinking this conversion should work too since the mag pump is pulling from the manifold into the res n back out to the buckets circulating. All I'll have to do is route the pump to perform the feed to the top buckets.
What ya think?
I'm thinking this conversion should work too since the mag pump is pulling from the manifold into the res n back out to the buckets circulating. All I'll have to do is route the pump to perform the feed to the top buckets.
What ya think?
