C
Chamba
Raco I´ve seen big trees around here that were from 3rd or 4th generation..very healthy and uniform said:
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A novel experiment the effect of environment on the selection of cannabinoid content
- Thread starter zamalito
- Start date
C
Chamba
and another reason the Thai, Malawi or Lebanese is not as good as the ones grown in temperate zones is the lack of strong sun late in the flwoering period..but it's not just that....experienced gardeners who know the strain will always get better results than those who aren't
genes and sun are only part of it ...the best growers always bring out the maximum in the plants they grow...some guy in Germany or Oregon more often than not growing an African strain for the first time will probably be disappointed in comparison to the bud from a local Malawi guy who grows the same line each year to make money to feed his kids and has 30 years experience....maybe the German guy pampers them too much?, gives a little too much ferts? or picks a week or two too early? etc ...alot of it is in the growing ..genes are only part of the equation...
genes and sun are only part of it ...the best growers always bring out the maximum in the plants they grow...some guy in Germany or Oregon more often than not growing an African strain for the first time will probably be disappointed in comparison to the bud from a local Malawi guy who grows the same line each year to make money to feed his kids and has 30 years experience....maybe the German guy pampers them too much?, gives a little too much ferts? or picks a week or two too early? etc ...alot of it is in the growing ..genes are only part of the equation...
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Chamba said:
LOL that is so true...
i am in the tropics and since i am still a newbie, it took me a few packs of dutch seeds to realize it was the genetics that sucked for my climate and not my skills
after i got my hands on colombians all things were alright, but bag-seed colombians though, now i'm looking for some sort of tropical "landrace" or kick ass psychedelic sativas. 
most seeds in the market take some kind of pride in being "early flowerers", but so far, in my experience, the later a variety finishes, the better it will be.
in the spanish speaking forums we were commenting on this a few days ago, and i had to paraphrase my man Schopenhauer, when he says that the most noble and virtous things always take a long time to mature, and how right was he! specially if we consider relate it to our beloved cannabis
peace!
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Perhaps I need to be more clear. I believe a few of you guys are missing the point of the experimant. Lessening of potency is exactly what I'm thinking will happen. I'm not trying to do this to see the quality of the herb improve. (Though I'm also not trying to directly prevent that from happening) Quite the opposite I AM EXPECTING THE QUALITY WILL DECREASE. However I want to see it decrease first hand so I can get a handle on exactly what is happening with genetic drift as a plant acclimates to my environment. I've already bred potent sativa dominant hybrids perfect for my climate. I want to see what is hurting the quality as a tropical line acclimates. Is it thc/cbd ratio? Is it resin content? Is it resin purity? These are questions that noone has answered. Also noone is certain what's causing this. Is it the selection for early harvest itself? Is it the cold resistance? Is it the less hours of light late in the season? When trying to breed acclimated sativas I do exactly what you said chamba but this time it is not my goal.
C
Chamba
"but so far, in my experience, the later a variety finishes, the better it will be"
I;m of the opinion that the LONGER a strain flowers for and with several months curing...the better the high and the longer the duration of the high will be!
most 8 week wonders get me really high for about 20 minutes then just like that "are gone with the wind" and I'm as straight as ...whereas a good Zamal keeps coming in waves for hours..if I want to get blasted I'll smoke an AK....but if I want to feel like I'm ten feet tall, have wonderful thoughts, be inspired and high for hours I'll smoke a long (18 ~ 25 week) flowering African or Asian bud that has been fully matured!
it's no wonder that many smokers from the seventies rave about the high back then.....cos they weren't getting buzzed on 49 day quickies that's for sure!
I;m of the opinion that the LONGER a strain flowers for and with several months curing...the better the high and the longer the duration of the high will be!
most 8 week wonders get me really high for about 20 minutes then just like that "are gone with the wind" and I'm as straight as ...whereas a good Zamal keeps coming in waves for hours..if I want to get blasted I'll smoke an AK....but if I want to feel like I'm ten feet tall, have wonderful thoughts, be inspired and high for hours I'll smoke a long (18 ~ 25 week) flowering African or Asian bud that has been fully matured!
it's no wonder that many smokers from the seventies rave about the high back then.....cos they weren't getting buzzed on 49 day quickies that's for sure!
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C
Chamba
zamalito said:
ok..keep us informed! ...hope it goes well for you!
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afropips
Active member
Hi Zam,
Its very difficult to understand your style of English for me but I try to answer what I think you are asking.
If you take a potent Sativa from Outdoors in the Southern Hemisphere that has the almost constant perpendicular sun ray's & high levels of UV light it will not noticably decrease that much in potency over a few generations.
However if you take that same potent sativa to the outdoors in the Northern Hemisphere where the angle of the suns rays are only perpendicular for a short season & the plants receive much lower levels of UV radiation they are going to lose potency very fast over a few generations.
The further North you grow the plant outdoors the faster it will lose its potency
over each generation & may not even reproduce naturally because the seeds will be infertile by the time the frost starts at the end of the season.
I hope that helps,
Cool Runnings.........
Its very difficult to understand your style of English for me but I try to answer what I think you are asking.
If you take a potent Sativa from Outdoors in the Southern Hemisphere that has the almost constant perpendicular sun ray's & high levels of UV light it will not noticably decrease that much in potency over a few generations.
However if you take that same potent sativa to the outdoors in the Northern Hemisphere where the angle of the suns rays are only perpendicular for a short season & the plants receive much lower levels of UV radiation they are going to lose potency very fast over a few generations.
The further North you grow the plant outdoors the faster it will lose its potency
over each generation & may not even reproduce naturally because the seeds will be infertile by the time the frost starts at the end of the season.
I hope that helps,
Cool Runnings.........
As far as getting the plants to finish they will be grown from february to mid november. This will give the plants a 9 month growing season I haven't seen them for a minute but they're probably 6-7 feet tall already and still have 5 months left. I grew this malwi line exactly the same way last year and had no problems getting them to mature. I have grown many tropical strains in my climate and have hade no difficulty (with the exception of some thais) as long as certain tricks are used. The reason I picked this malawi line isn't because I was chosing the best sativa I had. The reason is because it was the least maintained line I had meaning that its potency and chemotype had been shaped more by its environment and less by selective breeding. THIS WILL HELP TO DISPLAY THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE DRUG QUALITIES DETERMINED BY MY CLIMATE AND AN EQUATORIAL ONE . Afropips informed me that my line isn't feral like I thought however it is still the most feral tropical line I have. Quality of the high is not even a consideration in this experiment as far as likeability is concerned I am only concerned with getting a handle on chemotype.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, GUYS STOP TELLING ME HOW TO BREED QUALITY HERB THOUGH THAT IS IMPORTANT TO LEARN IT HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH THIS EXPERIMENT AND BREEDING FOR QUALITY IS LARGELY SUBJECTIVE AND NOT SUITABLE FOR AN EXPERIMENT..
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, GUYS STOP TELLING ME HOW TO BREED QUALITY HERB THOUGH THAT IS IMPORTANT TO LEARN IT HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH THIS EXPERIMENT AND BREEDING FOR QUALITY IS LARGELY SUBJECTIVE AND NOT SUITABLE FOR AN EXPERIMENT..
Well yes if I let everything go wild it would make for a better experiment. However this will not guarantee survival. My intent is to do as little as necesarry to help the plants survive. Also I am curious as to how the change in chemotype at highe latitude compares to phenotype. I have gotten a lot of opinion on why this is but very little fact and first hand experience. As far as latitude and sun angle my latitude is very close to that of cape town south africa.
C
Chamba
chill Zam...I reply to posts with not just you in mind ..but all new and old growers..I'd hate for soem poor Oregonian or German to read this thread and waste his entire growing year by growing the wrong strains!
and if you stated that you wanted to grow low potency plants in the first place, I wouldn't of bothered replying...( heavens!)
good luck with your "experiment"
and if you stated that you wanted to grow low potency plants in the first place, I wouldn't of bothered replying...( heavens!)
good luck with your "experiment"
afropips
Active member
Hi Zam,
I was using the potent sativa as an example of how the climate
effects the loss of potency over a few generations.
Malawi Gold has been selectively cultivated by traditional farmers for potency for decades. There are first, second & third grade Malawi varieties available but the most potent Malawi gold plants come from the rare grower that uses the same mothers & fathers each season.
These plants are the size of trees & cuttings are taken each season from the same Parent trees that regenerate year after year due to no frost & constant maintenance by the grower.
The traditional farmers in Malawi combined genetics from various parts of Africa, India & Asia decades ago to arrive at what is now known as Malawi Varieties.
The Original genes are what is important in the potency taste high etc'
Most of the Malawi Hybrids I have created are using the female Malawi dominant characteristics & the different Male Varieties.
Sorry & Excuse! but what is the point of your experiment?
Cool Runnings.....
I was using the potent sativa as an example of how the climate
effects the loss of potency over a few generations.
Malawi Gold has been selectively cultivated by traditional farmers for potency for decades. There are first, second & third grade Malawi varieties available but the most potent Malawi gold plants come from the rare grower that uses the same mothers & fathers each season.
These plants are the size of trees & cuttings are taken each season from the same Parent trees that regenerate year after year due to no frost & constant maintenance by the grower.
The traditional farmers in Malawi combined genetics from various parts of Africa, India & Asia decades ago to arrive at what is now known as Malawi Varieties.
The Original genes are what is important in the potency taste high etc'
Most of the Malawi Hybrids I have created are using the female Malawi dominant characteristics & the different Male Varieties.
Sorry & Excuse! but what is the point of your experiment?
Cool Runnings.....
I apologize for maybe not being clear enough. I am dyslexic along with several members of my family some of which cannot read despite having a good education. Chamba I apologize if I insulted you I'm not sure what exactly I did. The very reason I'm trying to get people to stay on topic is to prevent confusion. I don't want people to think this is how you breed potent herb though I thought I was clear on that. You aren't the first person to say that potency will be damaged and every time someone has said that I have agreed with them and said this is what I expect to happen. I never said I was going to make selections based on potency. I think most people have the sense to make selections based on potency if they wish to breed something potent. I also think most people have the sense to not grow varieties that won't finish in their climate and I really have a hard time believing someone would do so based on this thread. If I correct someone and I turns out I was the one who misunderstood what they said I apologize and correct myself. I don't rationalize my behavior and turn to insulting and condescending language to satisfy my own insecurity.
Ok one more time. My theory is that temperate climates naturally select for the fiber production phenotype. So I've taken a fully acclimated high drug content equatorial variety that I've shown can finish in my climate certain steps are taken. Breeding selections will be made based on early fertility (which is different from early flowering or early maturation), health, and vigor and not potency. Simultaneously the males will be selected for their ability to flower during the female's fertile period. I wish to see first hand if and how the potency is lost whether it is through drecreased thc/cbd ratio, decreased resin production or decreased resin purity. Also I wish to see what structural/physical changes occur during this process and see how phenotype associates with chemotype. Seeing this happen first hand will give me a handle on much of the behavior of the cannabis genepool in my climate. I feel very few breeders understand this with any degree of certainty.
Ok one more time. My theory is that temperate climates naturally select for the fiber production phenotype. So I've taken a fully acclimated high drug content equatorial variety that I've shown can finish in my climate certain steps are taken. Breeding selections will be made based on early fertility (which is different from early flowering or early maturation), health, and vigor and not potency. Simultaneously the males will be selected for their ability to flower during the female's fertile period. I wish to see first hand if and how the potency is lost whether it is through drecreased thc/cbd ratio, decreased resin production or decreased resin purity. Also I wish to see what structural/physical changes occur during this process and see how phenotype associates with chemotype. Seeing this happen first hand will give me a handle on much of the behavior of the cannabis genepool in my climate. I feel very few breeders understand this with any degree of certainty.
afropips
Active member
Hiya Zam,
1.) How do you arrive at the theory & what do you mean by :-
"temperate climates naturally select for the fiber production variety"?
Man does the selecting!
2.)What has fibre content got to do with potency?
Potency levels will be negligible if you are growing at the same latitude with virtually the same climate outdoors as the parents come from.
Simply Put:- Potency Outdoors is linked to sunlight & UV rays.
The more sun you get the better the resin production
the more potent the buds are gonna be.
The THC to CBD ratio is in the genes.
The purity of resin collected depends on many factors including the method of collection.
3.) in laymans English:-
You wish to see what structural/physical changes occur during this process and
see how the Variety (phenotype)associates with chemical composition (chemotype)!
Not much physical/structural difference will occur & chemical compostion is gene related.
4.)"Seeing this happen first hand will give me a handle on much of the behavior of the cannabis genepool in my climate."
What do you mean by this statement?
Do you mean you will be able to get a better feel for the behaviour of the Differing endemic genetic variations found in your climate or differing genetic Varieties that respond well in your climate?
I would not worry about that but what good pot grows well in my area & test grow
varieties based on others success stories.
You have to grow & smoke the differing varieties to get a good feel for them.
+ I would also post some pics in my gallery!
Cool Runnings...........
1.) How do you arrive at the theory & what do you mean by :-
"temperate climates naturally select for the fiber production variety"?
Man does the selecting!
2.)What has fibre content got to do with potency?
Potency levels will be negligible if you are growing at the same latitude with virtually the same climate outdoors as the parents come from.
Simply Put:- Potency Outdoors is linked to sunlight & UV rays.
The more sun you get the better the resin production
the more potent the buds are gonna be.
The THC to CBD ratio is in the genes.
The purity of resin collected depends on many factors including the method of collection.
3.) in laymans English:-
You wish to see what structural/physical changes occur during this process and
see how the Variety (phenotype)associates with chemical composition (chemotype)!
Not much physical/structural difference will occur & chemical compostion is gene related.
4.)"Seeing this happen first hand will give me a handle on much of the behavior of the cannabis genepool in my climate."
What do you mean by this statement?
Do you mean you will be able to get a better feel for the behaviour of the Differing endemic genetic variations found in your climate or differing genetic Varieties that respond well in your climate?
I would not worry about that but what good pot grows well in my area & test grow
varieties based on others success stories.
You have to grow & smoke the differing varieties to get a good feel for them.
+ I would also post some pics in my gallery!
Cool Runnings...........
hello zamalito, ok, here's what i know about the topic: at tropical climates, indicas and indica dominant plants will veg for a very short period, 3 or 6 weeks, although i grew some indoor varieties outdoors at my latitude and they flowered in 3 weeks from seed lol...
the indicas for outdoors will do a bit better, but will form only a single cola, no branches, no where to take cuttings from either. they can finish from seed to harvest in 2 to 3 months. the census amongst the tropical growers i have discussed this phenomenon with, all agree that the determining factor which conditions the growth of these plants at tropical latitudes is the photoperiod, including sun potency and even elevation above sea level. humidity plays a role in mold and fungus formation in indica like buds too btw.
Ok, now, what happens if you let these indicas brought out of context pollinate each other? in cape green, africa, a grower allowed just this, and the seeds they produced will give plants that will grow better, that is, have a longer veg time and a longer flowering time and a bigger size. as far as potency goes, there was no information on the issue. you could say the plants "acclimatized" themselves without much help from humans... we discussed this back in the OG days in the south american forums.
what is exactly happening at a genetic level for these chances to occur? it is really hard to tell, perhaps you shouldn't be looking at it from a genetical point of view, because since plants will grow nonetheless and still find a way to 'acclimatize', it just means that the genetics of a plant simply enables it to make the needed changes to adapt; and we come to the key word which is Adaptation, rather than genetic mutation. Genetics isn't an exact science anyway (what on earth is?), and proof tends to gravitate that genes will yield to stronger forces, they will adapt to ensure the survival of a species. Why do these plants need to adapt? well, because the climatic conditions are different and act upon the organism at hand in different ways.
anyway, this was my stab at it.
much peace!
the indicas for outdoors will do a bit better, but will form only a single cola, no branches, no where to take cuttings from either. they can finish from seed to harvest in 2 to 3 months. the census amongst the tropical growers i have discussed this phenomenon with, all agree that the determining factor which conditions the growth of these plants at tropical latitudes is the photoperiod, including sun potency and even elevation above sea level. humidity plays a role in mold and fungus formation in indica like buds too btw.
Ok, now, what happens if you let these indicas brought out of context pollinate each other? in cape green, africa, a grower allowed just this, and the seeds they produced will give plants that will grow better, that is, have a longer veg time and a longer flowering time and a bigger size. as far as potency goes, there was no information on the issue. you could say the plants "acclimatized" themselves without much help from humans... we discussed this back in the OG days in the south american forums.
what is exactly happening at a genetic level for these chances to occur? it is really hard to tell, perhaps you shouldn't be looking at it from a genetical point of view, because since plants will grow nonetheless and still find a way to 'acclimatize', it just means that the genetics of a plant simply enables it to make the needed changes to adapt; and we come to the key word which is Adaptation, rather than genetic mutation. Genetics isn't an exact science anyway (what on earth is?), and proof tends to gravitate that genes will yield to stronger forces, they will adapt to ensure the survival of a species. Why do these plants need to adapt? well, because the climatic conditions are different and act upon the organism at hand in different ways.
anyway, this was my stab at it.
much peace!
Chamba said:
you said it better than i.
also, i agree about the high's duration relationship with the flowering time duration! ever since the colombian commercial growers started to make hybrids to shorten the flowering time of their old school genetics which would take from 6 to 9 months to finish, the quality of the high has decreased a lot, even with the same crappy drying and cure methods they use for the massive ammounts of seeded herb they harvest.
peace!
I have to disagree to an extent with the length of the high in relationship to the flowering time. The ghanaian genes (14 week indoors) that I love so much leave quite quickly (could be my brain chemistry) but leave me clean. Whereas with some of the faster mexicans and supposedly the 303 (10-11 weeks indoors) have very lamg lasting highs. Thai genes I definitely agree though they have a very slow to come on slow to leave buzz and have a very long indeterminate flowering time. But this is what I'm talking about as far as physical associating with the chemical. Certain floral structures can definitely be associated with certain maturation patterns which can thus be associated with certain chemotypes.
I also would like to direct you to the following link. This is about the search for hemp cultivars that can perform adequately in a low latitude environment. They found that all remnant hemp varieties that have gone feral at low latitude have acclimated to being type 1 drug cultivars with very little fiber content.
http://safariseeds.com/botanical/hemptropical/hemptropical.htm
Don't you believe with all of the uses of cannabis fiber more cultures would have bred cannabis sativa to be useable as a drug and a fiber. There are higher latitude areas where cannabis indica is used for drug content and sativa is used for fiber and there is an occurance in hokkaido of the only known high thc high fiber content cannabis sativa but doesn't this seem oddly rare? In the book marijuana potency micheal starkes talks about how cannabis sativa varieties are either high thc or high fiber but almost never both. Also we should look at the mexican drug strains. After you get north of the tropics mexican drug varieties start to have a thc/cbd ratio inversely proportional to latitude. I find it hard to believe that this is because gradually mexicans get worse and worse at plant breeding the further north you go. According to R.C clarke the reason european cannabis varieties are hemp cultivars is because they were abandoned at the higher latitude europen climate as the plants went feral their drug content decreased and fiber content increased. I agree that high ultraviolet levels increase cannabinoid content in a single given specimen but how does this happen over generations? Do plants that produce more thc grow healthier under high ultraviolet light. Is there a paticular phenotype that does well under high uv and is also high thc?
As far as me not having pictures. Simply put, I don't have any. If I have to have pictures of my plants to be credible then I will gladly leave this site if you guys ask me. I'm not selling a product and I don't have anything to prove.
I also would like to direct you to the following link. This is about the search for hemp cultivars that can perform adequately in a low latitude environment. They found that all remnant hemp varieties that have gone feral at low latitude have acclimated to being type 1 drug cultivars with very little fiber content.
http://safariseeds.com/botanical/hemptropical/hemptropical.htm
Don't you believe with all of the uses of cannabis fiber more cultures would have bred cannabis sativa to be useable as a drug and a fiber. There are higher latitude areas where cannabis indica is used for drug content and sativa is used for fiber and there is an occurance in hokkaido of the only known high thc high fiber content cannabis sativa but doesn't this seem oddly rare? In the book marijuana potency micheal starkes talks about how cannabis sativa varieties are either high thc or high fiber but almost never both. Also we should look at the mexican drug strains. After you get north of the tropics mexican drug varieties start to have a thc/cbd ratio inversely proportional to latitude. I find it hard to believe that this is because gradually mexicans get worse and worse at plant breeding the further north you go. According to R.C clarke the reason european cannabis varieties are hemp cultivars is because they were abandoned at the higher latitude europen climate as the plants went feral their drug content decreased and fiber content increased. I agree that high ultraviolet levels increase cannabinoid content in a single given specimen but how does this happen over generations? Do plants that produce more thc grow healthier under high ultraviolet light. Is there a paticular phenotype that does well under high uv and is also high thc?
As far as me not having pictures. Simply put, I don't have any. If I have to have pictures of my plants to be credible then I will gladly leave this site if you guys ask me. I'm not selling a product and I don't have anything to prove.
zamalito said:
Ok Zam yo got me hypnotized again,
seems there is just no stopping the avance-guard 
yo folks don't even stop when yo yawning,,, jah bless this respect. no sh*t, yo do the do, n keep it realHere's some energy... Malawi weed,,,
that takes us back some years star,,, it was always reliable (the dude knew his shit, as the man before him,,, doing his thing, not putting on an act), always clean n sensa (seedless), olive to fawn, medium erbal in taste, and a creeper in vibe. compressed the structure was more so than colombian, looser than kenyan, less in smell than a really good thai,,, never got a chance to test this landrace (bagseed, these ends),, so PLEASE keep everyone posted with info. and photos dude,,, people like your good self make the genetic wheel turn,,, keep up the excellent work there's no reason why nothing can't happen!
G
Guest
PazVerdeRadical said:
I theorise it's not only the long flower period affecting the highs duration (and strength) but the veg period as well.
Point of reference one - My Jack Herer improves with each grow as the Mum ages. (also the grower improves...)
Point of reference two - Trainwreck - legendary strength, 42 day flower but 9 months veg.
I have crossed a landrace Sativa variety that grows all year round and is mindblowing potent 6 hour stone weed. I put it across with an indica/sativa hybrid that has what the sativa lacked (chunkiness, . It's growing outdoors now, in mid winter, looks really well, and not auto flowering. Two of four did auto flower. They got to die.
The landrace is known to have 20 years inbreeding in it, and perhaps more if I found the right old hippies to talk to. It hermies just below popcorn level every plant. Every seed is a girl too. It will grow for successive years to tree size if left alone in the right valley. The tops are relatively seed free STRONG wild weed. I want to improve/add to the gene pool but have very little sativa material to work with hence the indica cross being crossed in.
Way back when it was a hot item, this strain, dum dum, was treated to TLC from many growers and crossed with all our best of sativas. Genetics that must be kept. This is down under. And a friend has just put some dum dum in 400 miles south of the Equator from where it grows wild now.
Question - high fibre plants are tough? If so I have high fibre high THC Sativa seed right here. Now how do I get it out there?!
Sorry bout me longwindedness, off topic but on, keep breeding that landrace brother, you're doing important work.
