2016 Outdoor Garden of Eden

[slownickel]

Mizer,

Seems we come from similar backgrounds. I only take soil samples once a year, however, with that said, if I see a problem showing up or I see something spectacular in an area (not a single plant), I will take more samples to identify an unknown.

I spoke with one of those Albrecht nay sayers, the problem is that almost always, in any soil that does not have 10% H, those proportions don't work. Why? Because you have an extra 10% floating around, could go to K, Mg, Na or in some cases, Fe.

That was why Astera put me in his first book. No one it seemed ever did this math, Astera and I went back and forth like kids in a school yard. Finally he succumbed.

It was then that a good friend who is an USDA ATTRA member turned me onto Tiedjens, who apparently did the same math as I, some 30 years before me.... Between realizing that Tiedjens was ahead of me and me being vocal about how dangerous Astera was, I got removed from his second book. Solomon did stick me in his though...

Realize that Abrecht didn't develop this concept. He copied it from Russians.

This concept has to be gauged correctly for the soil type, drainage, water dynamics and evaporation levels.

It is a guideline only. The rest is up to us to use common sense.

Everything is relative to where one is standing. Albrecht was in nasty clays in Missouri.

 

[usually]

Pulling 10# of dried flowers off of a single annual plant appears to be well above the reaches of most agriculture.

Is it still counted as annual if you use sup lighting? 10#'s would be more impressive from seed not started in green houses or indoors.

 

[HillMizer]

Is it still counted as annual if you use sup lighting? 10#'s would be more impressive from seed not started in green houses or indoors.

Most of these farmers growing big plants are using seeds and natural light. Mine were started in last week of March in a greenhouse no supplemental light for full season, only for dep.. I see foothill's in early may in a greenhouse. Fact of the matter is clones nessitate the use of supplemental, it's not an aid it's a requirement.

You're one of the Wizards Slownickel. I barely graduated high school. It just was coming in a little hot on one of the best farmers on ICMag (showing us his garden).
I'm still trying to understand how people talk on this interweb thang.

In the town where I live if you ask "Where can I get some internet?)" They just scrunch up their faces and ask ".You mean the 80? Go down across the canyon and turn right"

 

[slownickel]

Hard to believe places like that still exist in the US. Congrats for finding one!

Much better than overgrown towns and cities.

 

[who dat is]

Plenty of spots like that around Colorado if you know where to look...

 

[cbcool]

Plenty of spots like that around Colorado if you know where to look...

There sure is, but don't tell anyone, I like my quite little town of 250 people!!!

 

[Shcrews]

Why would Foothill be concerned aside from his perfectionist tendencies? He clearly will have a very successful crop

Yah it seems like he's ahead of curve. FF I love your attitude with all them folks bustin yer balls esp in the aea thread.

Pulling 10# of dried flowers off of a single annual plant appears to be well above the reaches of most agriculture.

doesnt seem that hard really. Genetics and environment are the main factors

its a lot harder getting that as your average yield and not just having a few good ones

 

[OrganicDisciple]

1/3 grower technique ( soil, soiless, notes, organic) 1/3 watering and 1/3 genetics. That's what I was always told. I've seen the best fail with crap genetics and seen the worst prosper with great ones. Genetics play a huge role but to me all three of those are very critical.

 

[FoothillFarming]

When stems stream or turn purple there is a P deficiency. Think of P as the energy conductor for the plant. If you have some
Micronutrient issues it can also effect P availability

Yes, I agree. No doubt

where are they gathering nutrients from? are you talking about N fixation from the atmosphere?

My cover crops are N fixers, so yes. However a large plant with a 1000 gallon pot set up with everything it needs is more than enough battery for a plant full season.
I don't have any concerns , I have no vested interest in your success or failure I am just here to post my experiences and understandings and to have discussions based in plant science what was confusing to me was your alarmist reaction to your issues but then saying that the pot correctly balanced doesn't need anything and that even with slight micronutrient imbalances plants will still grow just fine...if that's the case why do any corrective sprays at all? There's either an issue with your soil and your plants need an Rx or they don't and the gardens on point. It's confusing when you talk both ways


Yea, it's hard to understand somebody fully over the internet, especially me. I have a hard time communicating in person, let along over the internet.

I tend to be a perfectionist. When I get my soil results back, I don't sit and pat myself on the back on how my main cations are right on the money. I sit and kick myself on why the macro's are off. I am never happy, and always trying to improve.

I didn't mean to imply that my soil was fine, and I don't need to do anything. I was trying to imply that if I went 100% water the rest of the way, I would still have a good year. However, screw that. I have science through testing, agronomist recommendations, the best minds in the canna world on this site, and a strong will. You better believe I will stride for perfection.

Wollastonite is a mineral, it's definitely organic. Do you have a real organic certification at your property from CDFA?

Nothing federally recognized, but I do have a Clean Green Certification.

 

[FoothillFarming]

"The best times of the year for soil samples are before the season, a month before flip, and in the fall. If you tell that to a proper farms manager he will laugh at you. Not to be incindiary or anything but that's the reaction I imagine or at least that was my reaction when I read thatIf you start taking weekly soil samples, I would imagine you would confuse yourself because I don't believe anybody's soil is that uniform across an entire crop.Plant root exudate are strong acids that help to facilitate nutrient availability that's why an AA8.2 test is so valuable and a saturated paste test doesn't tell the whole storySoil tests are for getting a good base on what your plants will needi agree there but the plant growing in the soil will effect the physical and biological properties and that's why you'll find large farms testing weekly both soil and sapthen it's all about plant response from there on out.no doubt but it needs to be quantified in some way. Are you using a field Sap meter array to track sap no3 k p pH Ca?

So my last round of soil tests said I need A B and C. During the season, I don't really like to add too much of anything, so I will just lightly fertigate in A B and C, and foliar into flower. Instead of hitting the plants with 11#'s of A, 3#'s of B, and 2#'s of C all at once

Those Rx are based on math, if you don't put enough you do more harm than good because there wasn't enough of the material for the required chemistry to happen and once you're growing the plant becomes a part of the chemistry of the soil so you really want to build that frame correctly before not as you go during the season but that's just been my experience and preference ."

So farmers are laughing at me huh? Well poo poo on me.

So are you saying you take bi weekly soil samples even when things are going correctly? Are you growing in pots or the ground? Your soil varies that much across your farm?

If I were doing what you are asking, I would spend 10's of thousands of dollars a year on testing.......Not sure what size crop you are talking about, however I assume nothing to scoff at. My smaller than 100 plant crop doesn't need that much attention IMO. When you walk down my rows, you will see maybe 1-3 plants I am not happy with. I suppose I could take a soil sample strait from those plants, but I will be stoked if only 5% of my crop didn't live up to my expectations. Of those 1-3 plants, I have a really good idea what's going on through plant response.

I do also have an EC meter, however I don't like digging around in my soil so I tend to skip that meter. A sap ph pen and a brix meter. So I also monitor plant health that way as well. Even my sad plants have a brix of 11, happy plants around 18. PH is set right at 6.4 for most of the crop.

Also, I know those RX's are based off math. I get it. However instead of adding #'s of material that will get broken down at different rates, I instead like to supply a strong weekly application of what is missing with my quickly available AEA fertilizer. We are talking Liebig's Barrel here right? I don't need that barrel full all year from one application, I just need it hitting on all cylinders for a week, then it gets re-hit.

 

[FoothillFarming]

Yah it seems like he's ahead of curve. FF I love your attitude with all them folks bustin yer balls esp in the aea thread.

doesnt seem that hard really. Genetics and environment are the main factors

its a lot harder getting that as your average yield and not just having a few good ones

Thanks, I needed that hug. Sometimes leaving the AEA thread I am shaking and cold......

It doesn't seem that hard, because you are a canna master. Not many put up plants like you do brother. I see pro gardens with 100's of plants, and they are small. They could use somebody like you.

Foots,

We have tried using several different silica products. No response.

I am pretty sure our silica levels in the soil are super high as it never rains here.

As well, we did trials with silica on several grape and sugar cane farms in Peru, nothing.

In Honduras, there was a huge response to silica in the sugar cane. Hard to compare humid tropics against the dry tropics (we get less than an inch of rain a year).

Silica products are too often snake oil. I am a big fan on weekly applications of shrimp and crab to build the silica. I also think my weekly IPM with neem and potassium silicate helps here as well. There is a product others rave about, but it costs an arm and a leg. Osa 28 silicon. Check it out, might be of some help.

I've worked in agriculture since I was 13. My first job was on a potato farm. The last 10 years were working and consulting on cannabis farms.
My farm hand this year managed a decent sized mechanized valley produce farm last year.
In my experience most farms get soil tests ONCE a year. Some do twice. With very few ever getting a third soil test. Most farms are completely unaware that sap testing is something you do in the field, even customers who operate vineyards are confused on how brix might relate to their cannabis crop.
Why would Foothill be concerned aside from his perfectionist tendencies? He clearly will have a very successful crop regardless.
Most outdoor canna farmers think that AACT, a magic product or more blue powder will make everything irie.
A lot of folks are using an Albrecht/modified Albrecht school of soil balancing but I still think it is just a baseline. There's many studies that discredit Albrecht ratios and there are many discrepancies in testing methods and procedures.
These farms run with small crews and sometimes you gotta just live and take in another harvest. Pulling 10# of dried flowers off of a single annual plant appears to be well above the reaches of most agriculture.

Well said my friend.

1/3 grower technique ( soil, soiless, notes, organic) 1/3 watering and 1/3 genetics. That's what I was always told. I've seen the best fail with crap genetics and seen the worst prosper with great ones. Genetics play a huge role but to me all three of those are very critical.

I like this a lot. Thanks for sharing.

 

[caterpillar710]

soil tests from Logan are cheap for the information, I can't see how it would break the bank to send in for testing consistently especially when trying to track a problem or find why a section is doing better...but different strokes for different folks.

A friend consults on 9000 acres of chilies in AZ, they're testing soil and sap constantly and are also breeding some of the top peppers on the planet because they are beginning to see he elite eric effect take hold. They use the soil and sap testing to determine how much and what to apply, also from AEA. Meeting the ideal needs of the plants is improving the genetics now.

So if you have a good idea of what's going on via plant response why even test in the first place? If you can just look at plants and know what to do that is a good skill.

 

[caterpillar710]

If you have 100 plants and average 5 lbs, a 5% hit on the overall yield is a pretty decent chunk IMO. Enough that it would have covered the testing to not lose it...that's for sure.

 

[FoothillFarming]

All good points. If I had 9000 acres of cannabis, I would be testing that often as well.

One thing you may or may not be forgetting is I am not just growing plants. I am harvesting them, and getting them to market. Only so much time in the day for a single farmer like myself. If I had a crew, I would have the grunt doing soil tests more often, no doubt. Now, back to my light dep harvest that is taking forever!

 

[caterpillar710]

All good points. If I had 9000 acres of cannabis, I would be testing that often as well.

One thing you may or may not be forgetting is I am not just growing plants. I am harvesting them, and getting them to market. Only so much time in the day for a single farmer like myself. If I had a crew, I would have the grunt doing soil tests more often, no doubt. Now, back to my light dep harvest that is taking forever!

Being a solo farmer is a blessing and a curse with recreational laws and managing many large farms work flow boards to make it so teams can complete all tasks but using a core sampling spike and a plastic bag to test a pot hardly Takes much time at all.

I do the sampling and the old lady gets it sent off at thE PO when she does a town run.

Just saying if you do have all those tools it seems like using testing more often on the problem area may be worth the money in the future

 

[LostTribe]

FWIW I let my male get bone dry after quitting watering and I ran all the flowers through a big as grinder that I thoroughly cleaned. Then I just collected the pollen at the bottom like it was keif.

View Image

This was my first time collecting pollen though and I haven't done it since. This way just made sense to me so I ran with it.

grateful idea who is! never though of the grinder and screen for that thanks!

 

[LostTribe]

"The best times of the year for soil samples are before the season, a month before flip, and in the fall. If you tell that to a proper farms manager he will laugh at you. Not to be incindiary or anything but that's the reaction I imagine or at least that was my reaction when I read thatIf you start taking weekly soil samples, I would imagine you would confuse yourself because I don't believe anybody's soil is that uniform across an entire crop.Plant root exudate are strong acids that help to facilitate nutrient availability that's why an AA8.2 test is so valuable and a saturated paste test doesn't tell the whole storySoil tests are for getting a good base on what your plants will needi agree there but the plant growing in the soil will effect the physical and biological properties and that's why you'll find large farms testing weekly both soil and sapthen it's all about plant response from there on out.no doubt but it needs to be quantified in some way. Are you using a field Sap meter array to track sap no3 k p pH Ca?

So my last round of soil tests said I need A B and C. During the season, I don't really like to add too much of anything, so I will just lightly fertigate in A B and C, and foliar into flower. Instead of hitting the plants with 11#'s of A, 3#'s of B, and 2#'s of C all at once

Those Rx are based on math, if you don't put enough you do more harm than good because there wasn't enough of the material for the required chemistry to happen and once you're growing the plant becomes a part of the chemistry of the soil so you really want to build that frame correctly before not as you go during the season but that's just been my experience and preference ."

So farmers are laughing at me huh? Well poo poo on me.

So are you saying you take bi weekly soil samples even when things are going correctly? Are you growing in pots or the ground? Your soil varies that much across your farm?

If I were doing what you are asking, I would spend 10's of thousands of dollars a year on testing.......Not sure what size crop you are talking about, however I assume nothing to scoff at. My smaller than 100 plant crop doesn't need that much attention IMO. When you walk down my rows, you will see maybe 1-3 plants I am not happy with. I suppose I could take a soil sample strait from those plants, but I will be stoked if only 5% of my crop didn't live up to my expectations. Of those 1-3 plants, I have a really good idea what's going on through plant response.

I do also have an EC meter, however I don't like digging around in my soil so I tend to skip that meter. A sap ph pen and a brix meter. So I also monitor plant health that way as well. Even my sad plants have a brix of 11, happy plants around 18. PH is set right at 6.4 for most of the crop.

Also, I know those RX's are based off math. I get it. However instead of adding #'s of material that will get broken down at different rates, I instead like to supply a strong weekly application of what is missing with my quickly available AEA fertilizer. We are talking Liebig's Barrel here right? I don't need that barrel full all year from one application, I just need it hitting on all cylinders for a week, then it gets re-hit.

Dude no one is laughing at you they are just getting too giggly thinking about building tree houses on your farm like inside the AOG!

 

[FoothillFarming]

Dude no one is laughing at you they are just getting too giggly thinking about building tree houses on your farm like inside the AOG!

I was just playin' anyhow.

Being a solo farmer is a blessing and a curse with recreational laws and managing many large farms work flow boards to make it so teams can complete all tasks but using a core sampling spike and a plastic bag to test a pot hardly Takes much time at all.

I do the sampling and the old lady gets it sent off at thE PO when she does a town run.

Just saying if you do have all those tools it seems like using testing more often on the problem area may be worth the money in the future

I have a million ten minute tasks. Gotta draw the line somewhere. However, maybe I will send in for some more soil samples, and tissue samples for fun. Thanks for getting me motivated. If I do, I will post up and we can all see where I stand.

 

[maxmurder]

Being a solo farmer is a blessing and a curse

word.
figure out what's the most crucial , write down a list and slap band aids on everything else.
hard to find good help.
i don't care how much you over pay them they will never care as much as you do.
plants are getting big FF, looks good

 

[caterpillar710]

Max I agree with everything but the first to last point ... You can correctly motivate your people and it isn't ONLY with time off.

I'm lucky to have two guys who do care as much as I do. We all also share many common interests so we try to have decompression days. today was one we did a bunch of water board paper work some trellising and weeding and smoked elk sausage and a tri tip. Any time they want time off if it isn't a mission critical time I try to arrange it. Stuff like that..I do random nice stuff for em too