12/12 From Seed: A Different Way To Grow

[Guest]

if u work out wat i'm getting in that space and the time SatGhost wud b slapping me around the head calling me an idiot (and quite rightly)

lol. i wouldn't dream of it matey. i was directing it more towards motamouth.

 

[Guest]

i remember the thread on this topic from OG...i specifically remember l33t growing out some SSH and johnny blaze this way and it was an unquestioned success...i do believe that this technique is really only suited to long-flowering sativas however, as indicas need more veg time to be ready to flower properly...heavy sativa strains become doable in a much more reasonable time frame if this method is employed, and due to the excessive stretching of these strains (could be over 300%) the plant will actually end up being as tall as an indica strain (maybe 100% stretch) that was vegged for an extra 3 or 4 weeks...i don't see any reason for people to be flaming each other over this though, its a valid topic...

 

[atmosphere]

for the lights being that close you better be careful, some strains might be okay the day they come out of soil being that close to light, but many can have the first two leaves burned dead. And if they burn dead the plant stays alive but won't grow anymore. I've seen it more than a few times especially outdoors. but maybe yall don't have intense sunlight like we do this south? I don't know.

as far as the strains... it would be much easier to name the ones that did well than the ones that didn't.

pure sats, the oaxacas and hazes, etc etc. usually do good. in fact like 6-7 ft kinda good. other than pure sats I've only had a few bagseeds do pretty well, pure hawaiian molokai frost did good but its a pure hawaiian, ironically hawaiian sativa (fed) didn't do so well. looked pretty but didn't yield anything. cherry bomb two and humboldt select didn't do that bad. they were able to be packed in close. and homemade sativa hybrids did decent.

but thats it. decent.

there was a huge boom of this in the late 80's, that predated modern SOG style growing. Its on the growers evolutionary chart, its where SOG came from. as I said that is where the strain williams wonder came about. it was meant to be grown like that. but the whole thing was dropped about twenty years ago now because people moved onto more effective methods.

when you flower from seed your coming up with a tremendous amount of hope. Each plant will be different, quality-growth-everything of course. So the general idea is you plant a TON of seeds hope for half and half m/f, sex them in two weeks so as they get bigger they have more light, weed out the weak and pack as many plants as you can into the light range and they flower in 60 days and the idea is to have a SOG type thing going on but only be 60 days seed to harvest and not have to bother with all the cloning and so forth of a SOG or even the veg stage. Trying to beat the GE calculator by knocking a month off it.

like I said its not a new idea, and if you do it enough you will abandon it like all the growers before you have. because when it comes down to it the bottom line is that with the exception of a rare few strains, your cabinet gets filled with SOG buds. but the variation, and inevitably lower yields than modern grows will drive you away from it.

Some plants yield a half or an ounce in 60days from seed. I'm aware of that. most don't. so if your trying to compile a list of special strains to breed and make your own seeds and everything you'd be MUCH better done to drop the necessary breeding area required with this style of growing to accomodate the hundreds of beans you'll need for each grow (or buying hundreds of dollars of seeds). And turn the space into a small mother cabinet that can have consistent, potent, yielding, results. which is exactly what people have done. its the modern SOG method. this is a lil history lesson of how growing techniques have gotten to where they are today.

So the only viable uses for this method in my humble but well done opinon are to fit lanky sativas indoors, to find a mother quickly, to get a grow off in a short amount of time, run a test grow of seeds, or to fill in empty spaces in your room.

I mean if you so happen to have 10,000 beans you got somewhere free that yield an ounce in 60 days than great. more power to you. but I wouldn't go about investing and certainly not reccomending this method of growing, and I don't know any real respected growers who would reccomend it for anything other than pure sativas or regional strains adapted to those flower cycles.

sorry if I came across like an asshole, but I'm not going to have a far more inexperienced grower than I am tell me I'm full of shit and spreading misinformation because I said expect alot of runt plants.

but good luck to you with your grows, I'm not trying to tell you what to do. I'm just saying out of the thousands of growers who were doing this since the 80's and now you can't find anyone really promoting it for anything but pure sativas. let that speak for something. Only hal is promoting it because (as best I can tell, if you've done it a bunch speak up) he talked to a few people and saw a thread at OG, so he was going to reccomend to everyone that you can get 1gpw yields in 60 days and you should try it, its revolutionary style of growing.

but this is my knowledge on the subject, and its not bullshit. peace.

I totally disagree with a lot of this . i am aware of what modern technics is about . I've seen a lot of hydro systems,and have grow that way myself ,but I started growing on 12/12 from seed because of one important reason , it yielded me more !! and i didn't have to make clones , keep mothers or buy clones.


You are talking about empty spaces in a room , why should there be empty spaces?

Why should only pure sativas only do a good job ?

That guys in the 80's obviously did something wrong

The 12/12 from seed method helps you to get more equal plants , if you know how to grow them .

Can someone send me a couple of seeds from a strain that doesn't preform well under 12/12 from the start ?? a strain with indica and sativa combined.


Its all about keeping the plants develop at top speed while keeping them as low as possible . I have beans here that have proven to be doing very well on these lightregimes. ( the plant on the pics are the same strains ) they have been growing that way for a couple of generations. these beans are available for as long as i have enough of them .

 

[friedrich]

Hi all you fellowgardeners.

Been gardening for ten years, been lurking all the time - using the usenet and "adpc" in the beginning, then later OG and for the last two years i´ve been dedicated to lurk icmag.
Consider myself a pretty experienced grower by now.
This is my first post and contribution to the community. Ever. I´ve been too paranoid to post earlier on...

Came in contact with this technique when i read Atmospheres posts on OG.
Became interested in it because i only had one room to do my gardening in and finding that Atmospheres reasoning about the penetration effiency of the HPS-lamp made perfect sense.

Started out with this technique 2 years ago.
In a space measuring 1,2 m * 0,6 m, using a 600 watter for illumination.
Using 6.5 liters TECU-pots filled with coco as a substrate. Hesi Coco onepart solution and Hesi PK 13-14. Feeding regime as recommended by Hesi.
Runned this operation for almost a year. Perpetual and lots of strains from seed. The closet, in full swing, housed 18 plants at most.

My seedlings did get anything from zero veg time - 10 days veg time ( i natural sunlight in the kitchen window...).

Strains that i´ve done so far, using this technique;

From Nirvana

Bubblelicious - When LST:ed, this strain yielded between 20 - 28 grams from seed to harvest in 11 weeks. Above average smoke, very conform regarding phenos.

Big bud- NL - This strain i scrogged. every tecu- pot got a trellis (30*30 cm) attached to it, one week veg. Yield was impressive. 66 grams from biggest yielding plant and 44 from the smallest yielding plant. Smoked kind of dull if u ask me. Large phenotypical variation. Will not scrog again. Too labour intense when you´re doing many plants from seed. From seed to harvest in 12 weeks.

Blue mystic - Lst:ed, very easy to snap and break the stems during the strech. Never seen any strain so prone and sensitive to snapping... Yield wasn´t too impressive in this light regime. One week veg. Highest yielding plant gave me 25 grams of bud, smallest yeilding plant 14 gram. Big pheno variation. Almost like F2s.
Don´t recommend this strain at all - using this technique. Good smoke though.
12 weeks from germ to harvest.

Misty - Lovely plant. High yielder, very resinous. Knockout stone. Low pheno variation. Yielded 25- 35 gram per plant - LST:ed. From germing to harvest is about 12 weeks.

Reeferman Seeds

Asia girl -
Crazy sativa. Fun plant and nice smoke. Yielded between 20 - 35 gram/plant.
Two- three phenos.No veg , No LST. Crazy stretch.


Red Congolese-
Grows rockhard golfball nuggets. Not to stretchy for being a sativa.
Yielded 20- 30 grams a plant. 12/12 from seed.
One pheno - out of three - being a runt, that should be culled immediatly.
Nice Smoke and Lovely smell. Not commercial at all imo.

Gypsys Kiss
Nice plant. Good growshow. You CAN do indica-influenced with great success using this technique. Averaged 30 grams a plant in 12 weeks from germ to harvest. Lots of Trichomes. Easy trimming, great bagappeal. I Lst:ed a lot on these.

Sativa seedbank

Haze
Great for this light regime.
A breeze from start to finish.
Great bagappeal and decent hazy-smoke.
30-35 grams a plant in sog.
12 -13 weeks from start to finish.

I have also done a large amount of different crosses between killer phenos using the genetics mentioned in the post.
Some very good - others "so so"


I´m not using coco anymore, although i believe that its a substrate very wellsuited for this technique.
This techninque is NOT for a newb.
There can by no means be one single fuck up during any stage of the plants lifespan.
You have no margins to correct a mistake. Yield is gonna suffer alot.
That cannot be stressed enough.

I am now running large soilbeds SOG - 12/12 from seed.
2*600w and a 400 w, I´m 50 days into flower.
Doing well over my own expectations. Gotta love the dirt.
Current strains;

Mandala seeds-
Satori and Speed queen


No mercy-
No mercy special

GSA-
Sour Jack and NLX



All of these strains behave well, grows like crazy, the tallest plant (NLX) is by now 80 cm, forming a donkey dick cola. I´doing 48 plants in one bed and 35 in the other.

If youre a newb and wanna try this method i recommend large containers filled with high quality potting soil. Very moderate amounts of feeding - if none...
You shuld be done in 11-13 weeks with very little hazzle and a decent amount of bud.

Vegging?
It´s all about the flowering - me thinks.

And thank you Atmosphere for making me dare to open up my conservative mind. My gardinening is nowadays even more stimulating and rewarding...

Peace my dear community/friedrich

 

[atmosphere]

I'm very glad to hear that .

The longer you veg the more time your plants get to differ in size !
I also recommend a stable strain for this method , a strain that's not pure Sativa or pure Indica.

Starting your plants on 12/12 is ofcourse just a small part of a complete grow, but it saves time and keeps your plants from growing over a meter tall .

With the right temperature you can not overlight your plants ,so make sure thier is enough air movement around your plants and keep humidity above 50 % . This way you can confront your just sprouted seedlings with a lot of light . They won't ever have to adapt to more light when the were started with lots of it .

 

[Lofty]

NOW THATS WAT I'M TALKING BOUT! we've had 2 good post without any testosterone splashing around.

friedrich thank u very much for getting involved and the priceless information.

atmosphere, from yr info, its made me realise that i'll hav to bring the humidity up in my grow room wen i do 12/12 from seed and then lower it as the buds get thicker.

 

[atmosphere]

i remember the thread on this topic from OG...i specifically remember l33t growing out some SSH and johnny blaze this way and it was an unquestioned success...i do believe that this technique is really only suited to long-flowering sativas however, as indicas need more veg time to be ready to flower properly...heavy sativa strains become doable in a much more reasonable time frame if this method is employed, and due to the excessive stretching of these strains (could be over 300%) the plant will actually end up being as tall as an indica strain (maybe 100% stretch) that was vegged for an extra 3 or 4 weeks..

I could show you some grows with Indica dominant strains that preform well without veg time . but they will stay pretty short , up to 20 inches in most cases .

 

[motaco]

guys you can forget it, I'm not going to post a shitload of strain reports so you can do the math of 5g yield plants in the GE. wtf? I tell you I've done this with about 40 strains and about 1 out of 10 do well. just take my word for it christ. what you think I don't know when my own garden is yielding and when it isn't?

atmosfear. I've had plants like yours too. as I said I'm well aware that some produce well in 60 days like that. I know. but 9 out of 10 don't. if you wanna limit all your strains to ones that can go 12/12 from seed your going to have mighty slim pickins variety wise out of your stash. I guess if your someone who doesn't mind only having two strains or something you wouldn't notice.


anyway since you guys wanna see some results.

do some guesstimation and tell me how much you think a garden like this will yield. and why it wouldn't be better filled with full sized buds? because this is what you will get. space is space and there is no reason to willingly pack it with 5g buds instead of 25g buds. just picture a big SOG room full of 1oz nugs. now picture the same room filled with about 1-7g SOG nugs. thats the difference.


pics courtesy of my fellow 12/12 from seed sativa grower friend chaman. you may know him from hightimes or from here or OG. here is the link to his thread where he talks about the many reasons he doesn't grow many indicas there. try to get to at least pg 3. its a great thread anyway.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=25174&page=1


its not a lie, its not a joke, you can take the word of someone who has done this with more than 40 strains over several years or a guy with two grows and saw a thread a few yrs ago over at OG. this ain't rocket science. you can either learn from hard experience, or you can learn from the hard experience of others. your choice.

deep chunk on right. pretty much idenitical to mine

 

[Guest]

I was interested in the 12/12 from seed for Haze x skunk # 1 precisely because of stretch. Even though I am a relatively new grower, I know that being in a hurry and growing don't go together. As a hydro grower, I get much better results with clones in my set up, which is small. My ceiling is only 6' high and I have a maximum plant height of 32 inches. So this method is how I would grow a sativa or clones from a sativa. Even with 12 /12 from mature clone, I know I would have to do some pruning and tying to make it fit over the next 11-14 weeks of flower.

But there are several factors that determine yield in my limited experience:
1. Root size: No doubt about. I have experimented with a stretchy Nirvana WHite Widow putting in clones 5 days apart over a 3 week veg period and seeing the differences in yield.
When I harvested, the differences in the root mass correlated directly to veg time. The last in never caught up to the first which yielded 6 oz.

2. Pheno: when you get a few phenos' , some will be similar, but one or two will shine.

3. Dialing in your methods: Nute strength, supplements , pruning. I have been practicing with DJ SHorts Blueberry in my veg box before I put it in my flower room.
It shows deficiencies next to a Sweet tooth that is fine. Using this experience as a "first" grow, I will approach the clones in the flower room completely differently.
Lower nutes, cal/mag etc.

I have found that growing the same pheno ( clone) several times allows you to figure out how it reacts best to nutes, pruning, stretch etc. to get maximum yield.

Desiak gave me double the yield the second time I grew it when the mother plant was 1 year old. That is a big difference in maturity from when I first grew it when the mother plant was 8 weeks old. And with half the nutes as the first run. Both LST.

So, 12/12 from seed as a way to guarantee larger yields doesn't match my personal experience. But as a way to keep huge sativas in a small space. Absolutely.

 

[Guest]

another thread that ties in nicely with this one: http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=52064

 

[motaco]

yeah any haze hybrid, heavily leaning sativa hybrid, or jamaican, hawaiian, etc plants will normally do okay like this. L33t's thread alot of you are talking about, was SSH and an african sativa Rooi Bart (red beard). as you've seen they can go 6ft.

some people argue on potency, and I have mixed feelings about it. I think it affects some more than others.

 

[muddy waters]

like most men one of my fantasies is doing two different girls, two different ways.

i submit here onthatlevel's thread about taking sour d and strawberry d with and without veg.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=38993

one from his 12/12 harem:

 

[Haggis123]

Now that plant is a work of art, now there ain't anything wrong with that imo.

Friedrich, I'm glad that this post has prompted you to get into the thick of it, welcome aboard.. ....Your results sound good...got any pics to post.

Motaco, we are allowed to have our opinions and as you say you have done many grows of this style in the past. We have taken on-board what you have to say, please let the guy's get on with it...dude.
There were many postings along the same sort of line in the old thread, thats why Hal spent time & effort in getting this thread set up.

If some guy's want to convert their whole grow to this method, that is their choice......"why not" if you got plenty beans or a way of getting them, then great.
Nothing wrong with trying a different style for a while, why grow the same style constantly ???
Build a stash up and why not grow a different style for a while.....it's all in the quest of seeing what works for you and your set-up best. And the quest of knowledge and experience at the same time.
To me, that sounds ideal.

 

[motaco]

haggis I'm fine with that. as I said so many times. I'm just not going to have someone tell me that there will be no runts, and continue to argue with me about it. I said most strains don't do well, but some do. thats all. but if someone wants to argue that point with me... than you get what we got.


My very first post says, and as I've said through the thread I used this method on a ton of strains, I do it too. it works decent on heavy sativa hybrids. Some go 6-7ft! but most of your indica doms and alot of your sat doms too will be runts. thats all. I'm not telling people what to do, etc etc. I'm just saying don't overblow it, and make it out to be something its not.


Muddy that looks good. I'm surprised it turned out like that. I've got daywrecker (headband- up the parent chain of the sd family) selfed beans and they didn't like the flowering from seed one bit. lol, they were really sad looking. But that SD looks good; when they are tight like that you can really pack them in. I'm curious how much bud is really down there at the bottom though.

 

[Haggis123]

Thats cool, Motaco.

Please still contribute if you got something positive to say, as there is enough negatives now.
You said your piece, and put across the argument against it very well.
Now, it should be up to the individual wether to go for it or not....don't you agree.

Most people read a fair bit or are guided by someone with experience before embarking on their very first grow. I certainly did.

 

[motaco]

its all good. I don't start with people unless they start with me.

I don't really have much to say about the method of growing, its pretty easy really. Only thing to remember is to put your seeds in as big of pot as possible to start out with. You don't want them feeling restricted if they aren't going to posea potential height problem (like if your growing SSH you'll want to restrict them or they'll hit 7ft, but if its a skunk you don't want them feeling restricted or they stay smaller than they could've been). Other than that remember they will be growing much faster in veg if they flower from seed so your going to have to fertilize much sooner. but be careful not when they are too tiny. Other than that the shit just kinda works or it doesn't. depends on the strain.


check it out I preserve alot of my leaves. of memorable or unique strains I usually do anyway. daywrecker always has bad ass leafs. I don't think the original clones have this trait but all the selfed ones did. the bottom leaf is attached to the higher one.

daywrecker is like DSD but alot heavier stone, and minus the sweet tangy kinda smell. heavy on the armpit musty greasy fuel kinda smell.

 

[Haggis123]

"That's a cool leaf"...

 

[atmosphere]

atmosfear. I've had plants like yours too. as I said I'm well aware that some produce well in 60 days like that. I know. but 9 out of 10 don't. if you wanna limit all your strains to ones that can go 12/12 from seed your going to have mighty slim pickins variety wise out of your stash. I guess if your someone who doesn't mind only having two strains or something you wouldn't notice.

I'm not the kind of guy that concludes things from just one experience and one strain . I've also grown more strains using this method . But even more important is this method is also used by others that are on the dutch forum.
When you ask one of the worlds most experienced growers ( i'm talking about the man behind No Mercy Supply ) he will confirm that it is possible to use lots of strains if you do it right . I learned how to do it well from him . He has done nothing but breeding and growing for 36 years now(mabey you have grow one of his strains like f.e. Santa Maria,valley queen , snowhite ) . Like you said , experience counts for something, and i havend been able to proof him wrong yet .

I don't like to stand on my stripes ( how do you say that in English?) ,but my claims didn't fall from the sky either , they are based on something.

A question : Why have you grown 40 strains this way while it works so bad on most strains ,like you say they do ?

 

[motaco]

because I used to grow sativas on a 12/12 light schedule and throw in my homemade beans to fill in any extra free space, to see if a new run of homemade seeds has any potency to them, pop a handful of a strain to see if I like it and want to grow it again or if I want something else in its place, or just to get weed in a rush. lots of reasons.

but none of them because it was such a great performance. except the pure sats of course. thats pretty much how you have to grow them.

atmosphere what non sativa dominant strains have you had luck with? I mean I've had a few indicas work it, literally enough to count on one hand. all the rest were heavy sat doms.

 

[friedrich]

Hi u 12/12ers.

Back from work. I have been working eight days i row now . Tired.But I´m off for about six days. starting now! Lots a gardening to be done. Lots of happiness I Hope.
I don´t understand the bashing.
But I´m uplit... And old.

LIke I said.
It works.
But as you say;
U veg more and u will yield more. Yeah, everyone knows that.
But kickin plenty of them small ones...Lots of weight.
U yield more per watt in a specific time frame. I´ts commercial.
And its good- if you are i a hurry.

I prefer to veg for about two weeks. Then 12/12.
I dont want bigger plants than my hps could handle, They sure dont penetrate effectively - so why do bigger plants than necessary?

Atmosphere is dialed in. Thank you.
But for real? Onegrammers?