Elephant Man
Member
atmosphere said:
I think you were asking me...yes, all pics I have posted so far in this thread.
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I think you were asking me...yes, all pics I have posted so far in this thread.
Elephant Man
Member
fishman said:
Consider yourself blessed my freind.
My mind runs like a million miles a minute, sorry guys. I think my reasons for wanting to use 'birth in flower' are quite different from most in this thread. I was under the impression that the fact that these 2 strains are late to mature was a good thing. It should be noted also, that these girls are probably going to take twice as long as a blueberry or something. Kinda defeats the purpose for most wanting to do this, but I am in fact, trying to control the size of these monster sativas. I can tell you from experience that plants that do not preflower vegging is not very fun...we are talking about HUGE moms, and flowering these moms indoor after is no fun either. As many have said, it all comes down to penetration. I have an Oaxacan hybrid that does just this. It is not hungry or starved for light, it is just a true 'triple in flower' strain.
I guess I grow outdoor strains indoor...I dunno. This method will keep size small, we all know that. I will just post pics of finished plants and give details if you guys wish from now on.
Thanks for starting a gread thread.
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muddy waters
Active member
Elephant Man it sounds like you have some great genetics indeed. gotta love someone who encourages cannabis hankypanky (they're organisms too they must love sex).
btw I don't consider sativas to be strictly outdoor plants, and sativa hybrids are made for this flower direct method in my opinion. In exchange for a slightly longer flowering time you get 2 or 3 principal colas instead of just one. But I even like the buds on a stick and if you proportion them the proper spacing you can get 3-4 little single cola plants in the same area as a single sativa hybrid.
i'm also very interested in the possibility of getting single cola sativa plants for breeding by manipulating the container size, nute regime, and using an extreme photoperiod of 11/13 or 10/14 even. your basic bonzai tactics. don't know if that will work but i want to try. i have gotten some dwarf buds with sativa hybrids, single cola, usually underdeveloped though with abnormally small leaves.
speaking of photoperiod i say 12/12 but usually i run my cabs on 11/13 to economize the light bill and get things in a little quicker. i'd like to know what atmosphere in particular thinks of this--does it sacrifice yield? how much? would 10/14 be exaggerating?
these were grown on 11/13 and the sativa hybrid in front took a little longer to finish, by the time it was chopped the afghani hybrid back right (3 gram wonder) was already chopped dried and smoked.
btw I don't consider sativas to be strictly outdoor plants, and sativa hybrids are made for this flower direct method in my opinion. In exchange for a slightly longer flowering time you get 2 or 3 principal colas instead of just one. But I even like the buds on a stick and if you proportion them the proper spacing you can get 3-4 little single cola plants in the same area as a single sativa hybrid.
i'm also very interested in the possibility of getting single cola sativa plants for breeding by manipulating the container size, nute regime, and using an extreme photoperiod of 11/13 or 10/14 even. your basic bonzai tactics. don't know if that will work but i want to try. i have gotten some dwarf buds with sativa hybrids, single cola, usually underdeveloped though with abnormally small leaves.
speaking of photoperiod i say 12/12 but usually i run my cabs on 11/13 to economize the light bill and get things in a little quicker. i'd like to know what atmosphere in particular thinks of this--does it sacrifice yield? how much? would 10/14 be exaggerating?
these were grown on 11/13 and the sativa hybrid in front took a little longer to finish, by the time it was chopped the afghani hybrid back right (3 gram wonder) was already chopped dried and smoked.
Elephant Man
Member
muddy waters said:Elephant Man it sounds like you have some great genetics indeed. gotta love someone who encourages cannabis hankypanky (they're organisms too they must love sex).
btw I don't consider sativas to be strictly outdoor plants, and sativa hybrids are made for this flower direct method in my opinion. In exchange for a slightly longer flowering time you get 2 or 3 principal colas instead of just one. But I even like the buds on a stick and if you proportion them the proper spacing you can get 3-4 little single cola plants in the same area as a single sativa hybrid.
i'm also very interested in the possibility of getting single cola sativa plants for breeding by manipulating the container size, nute regime, and using an extreme photoperiod of 11/13 or 10/14 even. your basic bonzai tactics. don't know if that will work but i want to try. i have gotten some dwarf buds with sativa hybrids, single cola, usually underdeveloped though with abnormally small leaves.
speaking of photoperiod i say 12/12 but usually i run my cabs on 11/13 to economize the light bill and get things in a little quicker. i'd like to know what atmosphere in particular thinks of this--does it sacrifice yield? how much? would 10/14 be exaggerating?
these were grown on 11/13 and the sativa hybrid in front took a little longer to finish, by the time it was chopped the afghani hybrid back right (3 gram wonder) was already chopped dried and smoked.
Muddy my brother, sorry I have to go off topic for just a moment. Indirectly you have taught me more than you know, and I especially dig your style. For peeps that don't know this dude could grow in what you throw away. Huge props my brother, keepin the planet green. :friends:
I apologize for that, won't happen again.
I do have some good genetics, some really good peeps kind of took me under wing of sorts very early on, and one of them is an old school sativa outdoor guru type dude. He is a wealth of knowledge for me and dumped a buttload on me again today. Some very intesting stuff about highland Thai.
I am on 11/13 right now. I actually have 3 lights on 9 hour cycles, firing in series across the room for a total of 11 hours. Something about the sun movements at the equator and low lattitude sativas. This is all basically gathered from info taken from DJ Short's book. He goes in depth about equatorial sativas, and how to optomize them. So far the hybrids don't mind.
onthatlevel
Member
does anyone have any opinion on or any experience with changing the light period to 14/10 during the 4th week of 12/12 from seed? I've heard that this can increase yield? Or will this stress the plant too much?
i asked this in the old thread, but no one ever answered. maybe atmosphere can shed some light on this?
i asked this in the old thread, but no one ever answered. maybe atmosphere can shed some light on this?
onthatlevel i've always believed that the lite is as impotant as the dark, there must be a point where the extra time making flowering hormone in the dark has to b balanced by the plant using sugars in the lite, my first thought is 14/10 wud not b an even balance?
as the man said we need to know.
E man i'm really interested in the lite moving for improvement, mor info please.
philo i love love love them pics of the pollon on yr other thread
i'm guna go and get som beans next week, i think i'll try WW or misty.
as the man said we need to know.
E man i'm really interested in the lite moving for improvement, mor info please.
philo i love love love them pics of the pollon on yr other thread
i'm guna go and get som beans next week, i think i'll try WW or misty.
Truth
Member
muddy waters said:
I veg for 3 weeks, then flower for 7-8 weeks, that equals 10-11 weeks total from seed. I think 12/12 is best initated 14-21 days after vegging. this way your plant gets more light, less stretch and a better chance to establish leafs and nodes..but I DWC, so times will definitely be longer for soil(and yield will be less). plants grown on 12/12 from the start seem a bit more lanky to me, especially if you are using HPS.
Elephant Man
Member
Lofty said:onthatlevel i've always believed that the lite is as impotant as the dark, there must be a point where the extra time making flowering hormone in the dark has to b balanced by the plant using sugars in the lite, my first thought is 14/10 wud not b an even balance?
as the man said we need to know.
E man i'm really interested in the lite moving for improvement, mor info please.
philo i love love love them pics of the pollon on yr other thread
i'm guna go and get som beans next week, i think i'll try WW or misty.
I hope I am not way off topic, but to answer your question Lofty, this is the DJ short article I spoke of:
"After many years of first-hand experience breeding herb indoors as well as outdoors, I am of the opinion that the two most influential factors involving phenotypic variation and expression among current indoor herb breeding projects are the photoperiod (hours of light per day) and the angle of light in relationship to the growing plant.
Specifically, I find the single most powerful influence to the Indica dominant phenotype is the traditional 18/6 veggie cycle and 12/12 flowering cycle. The 18/6 veggie and 12/12 flower cycle is an attempt, however poor, to mimic the Indica-producing photoperiod. It is my belief that this light cycle strongly influences for Indica phenotypic expression.
Sativa phenotype characteristics will manifest under a more equatorial photoperiod, closer to a 13/11 veggie cycle and an 11/13 flower cycle. This is the light timing range to use to elicit more Sativa dominant expression from your plants.
As for the exact photoperiod formula that I incorporate into my growing/breeding regime, this will presently remain a trade secret. My advice is to experiment with different photoperiods, keep good notes and pay attention. Avoid the 18/6 and 12/12 photoperiods, while tweaking the times a bit differently with each breeding cycle until more desirable results in the finished product and their offspring are noted. Here's a hint: work in half-hour increments or a little less, and good luck!
Indica and Sativa characteristics.
Angle of Light
Angle of light simply refers to the physical angle of light source the plant is dependent upon for growth. Perhaps the greatest difference between indoor and outdoor environments has to do with the angle of light received by the plant. This is also one of the greatest seasonal differences between the Sativa and Indica producing regions.
Outdoors, the main light source is the Sun, with minor influence coming from nearby reflective surfaces. As a plant grows taller and broader outdoors, that angle of light from the sun changes very little in relationship to the growing plant.
Seasonal changes in angle of light increase the further away from the equator one gets. At the equator there is the least amount of seasonal change in angle of light, only about 20°, whereas at the 45th parallel that change is as great as 45°. At the 45th latitude, the Summer Sun is high in the sky while during early Spring and late Fall the sunlight comes from much lower in the sky. The farther one goes from the equator, the greater the difference in seasonal changes regarding angle of light.
Indoors, the lights typically range from a few inches to several feet from the plant. As the plant grows taller, its physical relationship to the bulb's angle of light changes considerably. Most indoor grow rooms have relatively low ceilings, therefore, raising the bulbs may maintain a similar angle of light early on, but eventually the angle changes. The same differences may be noted among plants directly below the bulb and the plants off to the side of the room farther away from the bulb.
Circular light shuttles tend to emulate the arctic summer and create a confusing signal completely unknown to the equatorial Sativa. Straight-track overhead light shuttles are more conducive to inducing the Sativa
phenotype."
I have 3 lights, I just time them where each one is on for 9 hours at a time. Like this:
Left light: 9pm-6am
center: 10pm-7am
Right light:11pm-8am
11 hours total. I have no idea whether or not this affects yeild, in simplest terms, happy plants keep me in surplus. This is just an idea to maximize sativa phenotype expression, and perhaps if they are catered to, they might finish in a more timely manner. The Indica-doms seem just as happy as before. Just a crazy old experimenting stoner here.
G
Guest
appreciate the info E-man.
i've often thought about the potential of a 'decay timer' (think that's the correct term) which automatically reduces on-time by a certain amount each day. for example you could start your seedlings on 12/12 and the timer will gradually decay the cycle to 10/14 or whatever at harvest time. just a thought.
i've often thought about the potential of a 'decay timer' (think that's the correct term) which automatically reduces on-time by a certain amount each day. for example you could start your seedlings on 12/12 and the timer will gradually decay the cycle to 10/14 or whatever at harvest time. just a thought.
Blunt Africa
Member
hmmm... How much is actually known and proven about increasing yield with this method of altering flowering times?
Howzit Sat.
I've grown 12/12 from seeds quite a few times, the last grow was with some Satori and Blue Mystic and results were ace...
Here is the Satori
http://www.mybuds.co.za/album_pic.php?pic_id=16&user_id=6
Right now I've got 3 Fem Cinnamon in a 80L bubbler going under a 400W HPS, these girls were put under 12/12 just a few days after sprouting. Took a little while for the roots to get going but they have now started to perform...
Have look here (it is based in a small South African weed forum, hope the mods don't mind)
http://www.mybuds.co.za/viewtopic.php?t=257
I can also remember reading threads on OG where growing were getting very big plants from 12/12 from seed. I like it cause it gives me nice looking plants and a great variety of weed...
Howzit Sat.
I've grown 12/12 from seeds quite a few times, the last grow was with some Satori and Blue Mystic and results were ace...
Here is the Satori
http://www.mybuds.co.za/album_pic.php?pic_id=16&user_id=6
Right now I've got 3 Fem Cinnamon in a 80L bubbler going under a 400W HPS, these girls were put under 12/12 just a few days after sprouting. Took a little while for the roots to get going but they have now started to perform...
Have look here (it is based in a small South African weed forum, hope the mods don't mind)
http://www.mybuds.co.za/viewtopic.php?t=257
I can also remember reading threads on OG where growing were getting very big plants from 12/12 from seed. I like it cause it gives me nice looking plants and a great variety of weed...
G
Guest
hey blunt. what's up bud?
it's generally understood that sog is the most efficient method of growing indoors, and this is primarily a sog method. it's more than just using a 12/12 cycle throughout the grow, it's about adjusting plant spacings, light cycle etc. to get your strain to finish at the optimum height relative to the light you're using, same as with traditional sog. the advantage that seedlings have over clones of the same chronological age, is that they are more vigorous (provided you have enough seedlings to select from).
if you run two sog's side-by-side, one with clones and one with seeds, the seed sog will finish sooner than the clone sog even though they yield about the same per harvest, so therefore the seed sog is more time efficient/higher yielding over time.
it's generally understood that sog is the most efficient method of growing indoors, and this is primarily a sog method. it's more than just using a 12/12 cycle throughout the grow, it's about adjusting plant spacings, light cycle etc. to get your strain to finish at the optimum height relative to the light you're using, same as with traditional sog. the advantage that seedlings have over clones of the same chronological age, is that they are more vigorous (provided you have enough seedlings to select from).
if you run two sog's side-by-side, one with clones and one with seeds, the seed sog will finish sooner than the clone sog even though they yield about the same per harvest, so therefore the seed sog is more time efficient/higher yielding over time.
kooki
Active member
SatGhost said:
Sorry but i dont quite understand what u mean by that statement?
How can a seed u plant n start in 12/12 be the same chronological age as a clone that u have taken from a plant, taken time to root, and then put in 12/12 at the same time as the seed.. just doesnt add up.
G
Guest
kooki said:
obviously they aren't the same age if the clone has been rooting before the seed has even germed.
take the cutting on the same day that you plant the seed, the seed plant will finish first.
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kooki
Active member
Then they are still not the same age.. the cutting is as mature as the plant it was taken from.
Also the cutting will need to root first before it does any real growing , and also on top of that. .someone running a side by side cutting verse seed sog wouldnt put the cutting into 12/12 the same time as a seed, they would root the cutting first....
And on subsequent grows they will prepare clones to be put into flower before they actually put them into flower, the advantage with the seeds as far as i can see is that u start them in 12/12 so no need for extra space to use as veg room... but a grower who wants to be efficient wouldnt put a cutting unrooted into flower like that, they would prepare it first and has plenty of time if they use seperate veg/flower rooms to do that .. so a side by side run would be of a seed planted into 12/12 from the start verse a rooted cutting in my opinion, as an efficient grower using the mother/cutting root would certainly do that, and the time saved for them is saved by using the veg room to prepare while a batch is being flowered.. just my opinion ..
Also the cutting will need to root first before it does any real growing , and also on top of that. .someone running a side by side cutting verse seed sog wouldnt put the cutting into 12/12 the same time as a seed, they would root the cutting first....
And on subsequent grows they will prepare clones to be put into flower before they actually put them into flower, the advantage with the seeds as far as i can see is that u start them in 12/12 so no need for extra space to use as veg room... but a grower who wants to be efficient wouldnt put a cutting unrooted into flower like that, they would prepare it first and has plenty of time if they use seperate veg/flower rooms to do that .. so a side by side run would be of a seed planted into 12/12 from the start verse a rooted cutting in my opinion, as an efficient grower using the mother/cutting root would certainly do that, and the time saved for them is saved by using the veg room to prepare while a batch is being flowered.. just my opinion ..
G
Guest
then it follows that you can germ seedlings while you have seed plants flowering (as per the example given by atmo). but for the most part you have answered it:
"the cutting will need to root first before it does any real growing"
"the advantage with the seeds as far as i can see is that u start them in 12/12 so no need for extra space to use as veg room"
"the cutting will need to root first before it does any real growing"
"the advantage with the seeds as far as i can see is that u start them in 12/12 so no need for extra space to use as veg room"
G
Guest
some of you make smoking and growing no fun.
kooki
Active member
SatGhost said:
Exactly so the original statement u put shld really say rooted clones verse germinated rooted seedling stage plant.
I say this because a grower shld try to be efficient, and to put seed verse unrooted clone wouldnt be efficient..
@backporch sorry but if all the peeps in this thread give good info that peeps reading can use i dont see how that makes it no fun
Im trying to make the point of being efficient , sats original comment i didnt fully understand, as it was proposing an inneficient way to do things is all ..
here's a j for your chilling
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