Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

Symb, IMHO, it because the very short half-life of Orthene is why your nugs tested clean; the very reason why I experimented with Acephate (Orthene's active ingredient) is to eradicate root aphids (not just "control them). When I used just Orthene, I did find a straggler or two about half hour after the dunks--but when I added Riptide (pyrethrin--also very short half-life)...zero survivors. And that is how the magic recipe was born...

It was after I posted the recipe here on ICMag did I discover Acephate breaks-down (soil) in a beneficial way and causes no harm to the microherd. And yes, it seems to eliminate all the bad (and good) soil critters; a fellow grower told me it even eliminated thrips (a battle he had been losing).

I consider myself a 90%+ organic cultivator (more like 98%--but let's round down) and I viewed the "sin" of using this particular chemical pesticide cocktail as a "one time backslide"--a trip to the confessional and all is forgiven; as there are really zero organic options that eradicate Root Aphids (plenty of products will "control" them--but zero for eradication). For the record, I have not had Root Aphids for what?....3-4 years now? Still have Orthene on my shelf, but have not touched it for the same period, 3-4 years.

I am glad my Orthene + Riptide cocktail (or your variation) worked! I think the leaf burn and "lock-up" is related the grow medium pH and accumulation of pesticide residuals of from prior treatments (plant tissue and/or soil)...something I never experienced--but others have.

EclipseFour20 said:

as there are really zero organic options that eradicate Root Aphids (plenty of products will "control" them--but zero for eradication). For the record, I have not had Root Aphids for what?....3-4 years now? Still have Orthene on my shelf, but have not touched it for the same period, 3-4 years.

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I hope you're wrong. I have been RA free for a month now and I only used organic methods. I'm hoping to make it years like you. Granted I had to kill my entire flowering garden. But 10 moms in veg survived and they are doing so much better now. I used mycotrol, aza-sol, cedar spray on pots/floor/wall. And finally a cedar fogger. Have had empty sticky traps and my potato tests always come back empty as well.

Trust me...I really want to be wrong. As I went down every path/rabbit hole that was "organic" that I could find. The longest time I thought I was "cool" was about 2 months--then bam, about 10% of my veg containers had RAs running laps around the container lips, then within weeks--all containers had RAs.

At that point of my "battle", I questioned whether it was "me" or my "soil" that caused the contamination. I knew it was not bamboo stakes (already replaced those with those green stakes) and I knew it was not my tools, room or dirty containers. I recall this day in my RA battle, as the last "organic" treatments was dunks using potassium salts of fatty acids...lost half that were dunked, including my last two chocolope plants. That particular Chocolope pheno-line was very good to me.

Spent around $300 on Botanigard bottles and had mixed success. Yes it knocked the RAs back, but after 2 months (as described above) they reappeared. I had good success controlling RAs with Botanigard on plants flower...so don't get me wrong. It works...sort of, but after 60-90 days it seems that my garden was the spot to be for RAs....lol. The only thing that eradicated the little bastards was my cocktail.

Yep...I sooo want to be wrong that there are "organic options" for eradication, but so far--nothing but chems accomplish that job.

I want to say that Eclipse's RA regime is the best method I've seen for getting the job done. Also, it has the least toxicity and residual toxicity [to humans] of any of the chemical methods I've seen suggested. As someone who believes, with quite some zeal, in sticking to organic methods, I was sorely tempted to use it, like 2 treatments in my room in the Summer with only Mothers in the room. Plus I would have used other methods at the same time on the room itself. This is after 18 months of frustration, crop loss, shitty yield, loss of genetics.

I got good control and good crops using Botanigard, nematodes, and thorough [incl bottoms of containers] area sprays with Cedarcide PCO Choice, but still had them.

Then I started using OGBioWar Root and Foliar, full strength, as a drench about every 2 weeks. It's been a year now, and have seen no signs of RA in months. I don't know if I've eradicated them, but I did the spud test about a month ago, and negatory on the RA's.

I intend to keep using OGBW monthly for at least another year with occasional area sprays, and I like applying nematodes long about 3 weeks of bloom. I can live with this. The cost/labor is not all that much. This has been a huge uplifting experience for me. I went thru many months of total frustration.

If I have another outbreak, I'll reconsider Eclipse's Orthene/Riptide regimen. Yes, I want to use organic methods, but if it comes down to a choice between a short interuption in my organic methods to totally eradicate RA's or to stop growing, I'll do it. Good luck all. -granger

My heart goes out to everyone who has coped with these awful destructive pests.
For what it's worth, I have successfully treated root aphids with a combination of diatomatous earth mixed into the top two inches of each soil pot, let the plants dry-out well, add several yellow sticky cards placed around the grow room, then wait & observe.
I absolutely refuse to ever use any chemicals whatsoever but won't argue with those who do. Each to their own I say. And everyone has varied goals so it's certainly not my place to lecture.
I just cannot grow, smoke or share something I believe to be poisonous.
By staying ever vigilant towards my gardens, I have either eliminated my aphids completely or at the very least keep their damage to minimal or non-existent. No effects on yield or quality.
As with most things in life, I've found the simple uncomplicated approach usually works best and most inexpensively.
My two bits, hope this helps someone's work out there..

buddyboy,
After suffering total frustration and shitty production for many months, I won't lecture people on this. I will let my thoughts be known when I see someone suggesting something that I believe to be toxic to themselves and others, like this "only use imidichloprid in veg" business.

My advice to you is vigilance. Don't give up. Good luck. -granger

BTW, after reading the UConnAg study of different flush or immersion tests where Insecticide Soap was at the head of the pack, I too burned the crap out of the roots of what I had. This finished off several plants. Damage can be mitigated by waiting an hour, then flushing the soap out of the containers. Then you'll have about a month before the plants can have enough root re-growth to even consider a healthy crop. Almost amusing looking back, but not quite. Also did the same thing with Cedarcide drenches. Both do a good job killing RA's though. lol

EclipseFour20 said:

Trust me...I really want to be wrong. As I went down every path/rabbit hole that was "organic" that I could find. The longest time I thought I was "cool" was about 2 months--then bam, about 10% of my veg containers had RAs running laps around the container lips, then within weeks--all containers had RAs.

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That's because of their (up to 6 month) winter egg, right?
That is what I'm afraid of still, I would love to pass the 6 month mark with no bugs.

So what kills their eggs? I'm assuming a few different products.

yourcorpse said:

That's because of their (up to 6 month) winter egg, right?
That is what I'm afraid of still, I would love to pass the 6 month mark with no bugs.

So what kills their eggs? I'm assuming a few different products.

Click to expand...

Dormant eggs, flyers dropping new eggs, cultivator contamination, sloppy cleaning, dog, wife, me--none of the above? I say all of the above are possible causes of re-infestation.

That said, I have a couple of theories why organic based "pesticides" are not effective on RAs...I think the most reasonable/probable theory involves how different "applications" saturate the grow medium. With many of the oil and "soap" based organic solutions--the first inch or so layer surrounding the grow medium captures the active ingredient (like a filter of sorts), thus diluting the amount of the active ingredient(s) actually penetrating inside towards the center of the "root ball" (where RAs eat/sleep etc). The consequences are dead RAs everywhere but the center of the grow medium, these are the survivors, while the RAs caught near the outer layers (top, bottom, and sides) are all dead.

Same thing with poorly dunked container using chems (say Imid)...a quick dunk may not be long enough time for the pesticide to saturate the grow medium fully leaving behind survivors. Under the right conditions, surviving RAs can develop a "pesticide resistance" causing them to be practically "immune". This explains why some have great success killing RAs with a single application of Imid, while others still have them after dozens of Imid drenches.

I think this is the reason why drenching may not be effective as dunking. Copious amounts of pesticide solutions are applied to the soil top (like flushing) which trickles to the bottom...but inside the rootball where the active ingredient has little penetration, survivor RAs live anther day. For me, a 20-30 minute dunk seems to be the correct time to saturate organic grow medium fully (inside and out) in a 5 gallon container.

Since RAs can lay about 12 eggs a day and adults lay eggs with live offspring, it does not take long for a few survivors to repopulate a container. Six months later you can have flyers (mistaken for fungus gnats) seeking to setup home in any hunk of organic matter they find (fresh transplanted container, dirt clod in the corner, unwashed dirty container, blob of dirt inside a bamboo stake, dirty tools, etc).

Within six months, a single RA can be responsible for thousands of generations of RAs and it takes just a one survivor to start the game all over...IMHO, annihilation is the only answer. There you have it...one theory why "organic" pesticides are not effective on RAs...the soil behaves like a filter preventing a concentration of the active ingredient from being effective or accumulate sufficiently inside the center of the grow medium.

Yes, you need to do a 30 minute soak of whatever you use to get the part just under the base of the plant. With OGBioWar there are at least 2 soil dwelling insecticidal fungi that will attack hatchlings as soon as they hatch. Hopefully they will not lay eggs or give live birth to pregnant adults. Good luck. -granger

I posted many pages back about helping a friend with a current grow that had RA's. we used Cedar oil, and aza-sol only. After his crop we put his old root balls into clear plastic tubs with secured lids and gorilla taped them shut to see if we actually killed them all. inside these tubs we placed potato slices, and sticky traps inside (on the top layer of soil and the lids)... 2 weeks later we opened the lids and checked the traps... ZERO RA's, none on any of the sticky traps, or anywhere crawling around.

the KEY, and I stress the KEY, is to treat every 3-5 DAYS (after pots dry). Break their life cycle over 2 weeks and you've won, beware though, you could lose a plant or two in the process. This was the third grow I've helped with battling RA's. The first was my own with too many products to name (been 2 years without any) and the other grow we strictly used Botanigard ES at 30ml/gal, we dunked the pots for 30minutes and foliar sprayed with the same strength solution over the entire room.

It's equally important to clean the hell out of your room. when you think it couldnt be anymore clean, clean it again, and fog with cedar oil regularly (with plants removed).

I respect Eclipse and his findings in the Orthene and riptide recipe. luckily i havent had to resort to it just yet, its the ultimate backup plan.

I would like to thank you dabsnob. When you posted what you did it made the most sense to me and so far its working.

Eclipse or whoever can answer,

I was in the store the other day and didn't see any orthene/acephate products. I saw some online at the home depot. Looked like a powder that is 50% concentration. So what strength do u mix too?

Also what is the % strength of pyrethrins in riptide? And what strength do u mix that too?

And if dunks cant be done, can multiple waterings to flush thru be effective?

This is the Orthene I used, 97% acephate.
http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/orthene-97-spray-insecticide-p-3962.html

This is the water soluble pyrethrin I use (great all purpose pesticide), Riptide, 5% pyrethrin + 25% PBO.
http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/riptide-50-pyrethrin-ulv-p-216.html

These guys ship fast, the last time I ordered Riptide it was on a Monday morning and the mailman delivered it that Wednesday.

The routine is explained here--https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=6657946&postcount=2883

Thanks for the info and links. I don't know why I stayed away from this treatment in the past. I think there was some scare of burning the roots or health risks. But now it seems that it might be one of the more safe ways to eradicate ra's. At least u guys make it sound like its a better alternative than imid for ur health.

This whole thread is the reason that smoking cannabis is more dangerous today than it was back in early 2000's.. before the RA and the spider mite, it was rare for an average grower to even need to treat for pests.. today the reality is they are everywhere, and because of the resistance to treatments, its become a dangerous game, one i'm no longer willing to take when it comes to smoking others cannabis. its a damn shame you can't win the war against RA without using chemicals that are known to cause cancer.. after watching my mother suffer from bone live and lung cancer in the last month of her existence, i know that i'm pre disposed to go through the same pain she went through.. and ingesting chemicals like the ones mentioned on this thread, make cannabis that much less appealing..


just my 2 cents.

sneaky,
Why do you say you can't win the war against RA without using chemicals known to cause cancer. Did you read my posts? -granger

How big are adult non flying RA's compared to a spider mite or springtail?

At the same time, are beneficial or non harmful soil bugs like springtails, soil mites and such attracted to potato slices as well as RA?

Our plants have been showing MG like deficiency that's not getting cured, however I checked soil ppm runoff and a bunch were over 2000ppm, indicated something is building up and locking it out. At the same time I discovered our medium freshly mixed with no plants in it, runs off around 1250ppm.

The medium is just promix/ewc/perlite at a ratio of 3:1:1, with some lime added and never recycled inside (each round old dirt goes outside to veggy gardens)
Until about 6 months ago, this medium was working amazing for 4 years. We use PBP in veg and Earth juice in flower. The pbp in veg used to be fool proof, it was like the plants grew themselves as long as they were transplanted regularly.... no longer is that the case.

I've found 2-3 different species of things living in the top part of the soil, in big numbers, one about the size of a spider mite but crawling around, another similar size more more elongated, then tiny worm things I assume are larva of one of the two, or nematodes, I think nematodes cause I coulda swore I saw one fighting/eating one of the other bugs.

All these bugs are in very high numbers in some plants. But very small and hard to see, they seem to be about the size of a spider mite, if you are not within 6" and really looking for them, you will not see them. They do not move overly fast like some people describe aphids...

The plants have been yielding okay/average since we have had this problem and will still have leafs on at chop, however they yellow around week 4-6.

edit: we have very few flying fungus gnats, i'm 99% sure they are FG as they are caught on my homemade sticky traps. (tangletrap + 1/5-1/6 of a plastic cup cut into slices, then taped onto a bamboo skewer)

The size of Root Aphids in the soil are slightly larger then the "period" at the end of this sentence--but not larger than the size of a pinhead.

Flyers are about size of Fungus Gnats and there seems to be a correlation with the two: If you have RAs, then you usually have FGs..but not the other way around (you can have FGs without having RAs).

Resistance to pesticides takes dozens, if not hundreds, of generations, exposed to sub-lethal concentrations of the pesticide. It's not an overnight phenomenon.

Other than that, some great information coming out here. Always interesting to read your posts EF20, Granger, et al.

Kony,

If u look at the little worm like things in the soil they are most likely FG larvae since u know u have adult fliers. If u use a scope u can see they are somewhat translucent with a black head. Now for the other little crawlers im stuck with u in the sense that im not a 100% if they are soil mites, RA's or what?