question for sam the skunkman on the original haze

Plenty of good info guys. Thx for talking civilizatedly as well.

Nice info Expat. Thx for chiming in and give your growing opinion. I have not worked any other sativa haze to know and compare but from few pictures I saw seems stems structures are improved and stronger in Toms/Positronics/Sams haze.

Hello Shanti, nice to read you. Is hard not to agree on some of your statements about. Knowing a bit about present commercial genepool we have a real debt of gratitude to all pionners who made such great job as you say. There seems to be in the market big diferences nowdays between seedmakers and makers of varieties. I would love more creators of varieties as you would still stand up and work for good.

To you all involved in these hybrids develpments I have only one complain... we have lost so many things with the time. I know we could never expect so many lines would ever get extinct and there were millions of seeds but in more than a a decade I havent been able to source almost any of most old classic landraces used to create present hybrids. I know is not your fault but many other reasons affected (prohibition, paraquat, dea, commercial results, etc) but is a fact to me they are gone. Dont care if someone has collections or not as much as they are not grown by ppl and out of natural well suited enviorements. I wished most of job we ve been doing down here was not for trying restoring lines and effects but for adding job to exceptional existing old genetics and landraces.

Seems we pay more attention to legends and names than to genepool and plants. I dont know if we stil can learn from this experience or we are still so fool as community, I only hope we can ever learn. At leats me I am a pesimus optimistic about genepool... and about cannabis community

what a great thread......god bless all the people around the world who have tried to preserve these great landraces that are on the verge of extinction.....

regarding the reddish-colored sap, i have seen only one plant do this and it was brought from Vietnam and cloned over and over again......the plant was so potent that one bong hit brought me to my knees, literally.....it was absolutely the best i've ever come across, pure connoiseur head-stash, and only a select few had access to this plant.....

Thanks for all the old photos!!!! You know, the leaf morphology of some of those strains is just not seen anymore......that really makes you wonder about how many other unique genetic profiles we have lost as all those land-races became extinct.....the cannabis plants from the past seem quite different from all the indoor poly-hybrids of today, just based on leaf morphology alone......

kind regards from guineapig

Guineapig you know most ppl grow today just 8 weeks hybrids.. barely you can see sativas and maybe just racy indica hybrids. But we talk and talk about these old stories and worry about it but there is a huge distance nowdays between market, breeding and genepool. They are not much related mostly so we must have been doing something wrong.

Since where talking history,like to add pics!!!

Since where talking history,like to add pics!!!

Glad ya like the pics folks,got MORE!

Well right before my dad died he was looking threw
his books as we where gonna move to the mountains..
He found this old book,but in it was my old pot leafs!!!!!!!!!!!!

To my surprize he had found my FIRST MARIJUANA LEAVES!
You know how folks up north gather maple leafs and place them
in books to flatten,well i did the same thing with my first MJ plants!
THese sativa leaves are from 1974 just for comparisons,must have
been MEX and columbians i believe!!!!!!!!
My dad was a cool guy and would never throw them out...i miss him.

Started growing at 14 years old and im glad i saved these leaves!!














1974 man those days where the FRESH days of weed it was still new!

hola Charlie, sure do miss those cambodian pics, that was a nice lookin sativa.

the thicness overall of Toms haze was the biggest difference between the 2 as far as i could tell.

all the OT1 gals were pretty much the same as far as growth and bud structure. appeared to yield big fuzzy bud, not unlike the dalat. plenty of trics all over the plants. have more of the beans, just need a better OP, meanin more light, and better enviorment for um.

a bit on the genepool, its not so much all the misc crosses about, its that the growers that make all the crosses, are not holdin onto the parental seedstock. even if ya only have 10 beans of a certain line, imo its best to make a big batch of those first, then do your cross and hold on to the original seed.

its not the pissin in the genepool thats the problem, its whats bein tossed to the way side once a cross is done. peeps grow some seed, find a plant, and instead of makin another gen there to quick to outcross that special plant.

my take on it

Nice find with those leaves Lou, a lovely blast from the past! I can only imagine how beautiful some of those sats must have been!

I reckon we need to get some sat beans to lou of some of the modern versions of some of the old classics as he knows the originals and can compare better than us young whippersnappers who have never smoked any real Panama Red, Colombian Gold, Chocolate Thai etc.

Big ups Sam, and the rest of the contributors to this thread. Some of the info in here is priceless.

Sam(and the rest of the experts) I have a question for yous guys...

A couple years back I made a trade with a guy for some of Tom's O-Haze x Mr. G's Cherry bomb. I believe CBF??? made them. Anyway...

I recently started them under 24-0 light for a couple weeks and then went 12/12. My question for you is how common is it to have a sativa of this nature that doesn't stretch?two that I have are growing like normal sativas would, but one is growing like an indica (1/4-1/2 inch node spacing compared to the 2-3 inch node spacing of the others all have the sativa leaves though). As to my knowledge Mr G's cherry bomb is from a Maui Wowie line. So they should be sativa divas. Any ideas?

Thanks,
Cannabowl


Edit*-forgot to add that they are 2 weeks into flower, so they are nowhere near done with the stretch, but like I said, One isn't got a bit of stretch at all.

Splendid idea British It really would be cool to hear Lou´s opinions comparing old & "modern" strains!

Now how does this sound Lou?

SOunds GOOD to ME,and thanks friends!

SOunds GOOD to ME,and thanks friends!

Got the spot for sativas i do!!!

Plenty of room and know how to finish good!!
Well i have some sativas but im open to more......

WELCOME cannabowl,we will try and help?
You are probley just looking at an indica pheno!
These days their is really not to many strains left pure??

Thats another TOPIC id like to discuss,as my old oppinion
was NOT to cross but to preserve a unique strain if possible!!
Working a gene pool is better than crossing an crossing an crossing...
Every time you cross you end up covering over old genes an traits??
Possibly loosing our old unique genetics that where ounce pure,like sativas..

Get me some O haze, or something you really like but be discrete PM me!
Thanks again...

cannabowl said:

Big ups Sam, and the rest of the contributors to this thread. Some of the info in here is priceless.

Sam(and the rest of the experts) I have a question for yous guys...

A couple years back I made a trade with a guy for some of Tom's O-Haze x Mr. G's Cherry bomb. I believe CBF??? made them. Anyway...

I recently started them under 24-0 light for a couple weeks and then went 12/12. My question for you is how common is it to have a sativa of this nature that doesn't stretch?two that I have are growing like normal sativas would, but one is growing like an indica (1/4-1/2 inch node spacing compared to the 2-3 inch node spacing of the others all have the sativa leaves though). As to my knowledge Mr G's cherry bomb is from a Maui Wowie line. So they should be sativa divas. Any ideas?

Thanks,
Cannabowl


Edit*-forgot to add that they are 2 weeks into flower, so they are nowhere near done with the stretch, but like I said, One isn't got a bit of stretch at all.

Click to expand...

the grow of the plants that contributed to that cross(H-Bomb) are pictured here. were all flowered from sprout.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=9245&page=1&pp=15&highlight=panama+red

the cherry bomb didnt have hardly any stretch, and ive had slower growin tight little haze plants in the THOHaze. have had plants flowered at 6 inches and finish under 4 ft.(from clone)

havent run either of the crosses made back then(05) H-Bomb or the CherryHaze(CB X Haze) those seeds were gifted to a charity back then at *****. there wasnt anything but sallies in the OP at the time so shouldnt be any indica in there other then what shows up from the 2 lines. only pollens floatin around were from the Haze or CherryBomb.

I have several OHaze plants growing now at about 18" in veg..
Will take pics and post today...Red sap?
I have a big male that needs toping,interesting to see if it's the same as others....

Eventually i plan on going to most the countries w/ the original land race genetics that made all these strains today and get my own seeds sense i like to travel and learn about the plant. Speaking of unusually good strains i grew a plant out from bag seed that was very good but never got to finish and took a clone. The clone is amazing and seems to be the most vigorous easy to grow plant i have ever seen. This plant has bee through hell and back. My friend dried some of the buds and said it was some of the best tasting weed he smoked so i can wait to take more clones and finish the original.

Capt. Crip said:

I have several OHaze plants growing now at about 18" in veg..
Will take pics and post today...Red sap?
I have a big male that needs toping,interesting to see if it's the same as others....

Click to expand...

Hola capt.
did a TW BX for woodhorse, and a grower reported Red sap from those as well, so if its somehow connected to a sativa line my guess would be the thai?

hey sam i have great respect man usally im just a reader but ive got some ques i was hoping you could give me your input on.

i saw someone on here say.
Neville changed the story about the origins of some of his genes to enhance their appeal to the public. Remember, Neville also said he obtained G-13 from a woman in the US who worked at the University breeding programme and no-one has ever been able to unravell that little myth.

ive never heard about the truth i alwasy thought the goverment story was true but now it sounds like a comic book.
do you happen to know anything pertaining to this?

another thing i notice many haze's devlop quite large caylx's is this something you noticed??? every haze hybrid ive grown from my friend even when crossed to arcata wreck made beautiful large caylx.

oh shit 1 more for the road man did you give them california orange???
i grew what i honestly belive was old cali o (usa<kept alive by a eugene cat older then even me>) clone and it had beautiful hybrid vigor and tasted amazing sorta like a orange/bananna fruit smoothie but much better, had the nicest sativa high took maybe 11 weeks still makes me drool,
any info you got ill take it man i love learning about the old plants, any info on any old plant you loved or feel should be noted id like to hear about and i bet alot of these guys would also.

man your the real deal holyfield before he was even around sam....

expat said:

Hola capt.
did a TW BX for woodhorse, and a grower reported Red sap from those as well, so if its somehow connected to a sativa line my guess would be the thai?

Click to expand...

Agreed on the Thai prolly carrying this trait...
Good to see you back as well....
Hit you soon..............................CC
Need to get your count up again...

G13 is not from University of Miss, I have been to the facility, I was invited to visit by Dr El Sohly , I asked them about G13 and they looked in their records and said they never had a plant called G13, they did not even have clones until a few yeas ago.

I know I always selected for large calyxs with Original Haze, and it was not so hard as OHaze has big calyxs anyway.

Yes I introduced California Orange.

-SamS

I just finished a grow of Woodhorse TW and never had one with red sap.

I'm not surprised about the G13 thing, stories get told and legends are born every day, some last a long time others evaporate quickly.

yea man i think the haze shows the large calyx and you probley play a bigger role then you give yourslef in alot of genes man. as for the cali o man well damn defantly alot of respect for you man you defantly had/have it down. youve made alot of people happy man.

Sam_Skunkman said:

G13 is not from University of Miss, I have been to the facility, I was invited to visit by Dr El Sohly , I asked them about G13 and they looked in their records and said they never had a plant called G13, they did not even have clones until a few yeas ago.

I know I always selected for large calyxs with Original Haze, and it was not so hard as OHaze has big calyxs anyway.

Yes I introduced California Orange.

-SamS

Click to expand...

hiya sam from what i know the G13 got its name from G (Goverment Clone ) / 13 (Greenhouse no-13) were it was taken from.


heres an intresting post by a guy from CW named nom de fluer.


Hi, all
I thought I could add some history to help back hempy's point.
The G-13 clone was discovered by a guy named Sandy Wienstien. A founding member of Sacred Seeds, Breeder of Early Girl, He also discovered the Bay Area Durban Poison clone (the same clone All dutch DP is based on). During the mid 70's Sandy W and members of the Bay Area (SK#1) group were working in cooperation on some of their afgans. A couple of the plants intro'd
early into both programs brought a near fatal vunerabilty to grey mold. Both
programs had to backtrack while new afgans were found to replace the culled
plants, as well as beginig an extensive tourure testing program for the remaning stock.

Sandy had a group of friends, growers who lived in his area (S.Ark-N
Miss)One of these friends was a grower, and first year botany student who
had,by shear accident, landed a job working with Carlton Turner , who ran
the US gov. pot program @ U of Miss. Sandy's friends job? using the early,rather primitive tests they had at the time to test Afganica plants for THC level! As Sandy's Early Girl program in the MW and the Skunk#1 people in
Cali were on a desperate search for Afganicas. Sandy enlisted his friend to send him anything "interesting". Sandy's friend sent him 23 plants in all, and to differetiate these from his regular Afgani stock, which he labeled
A1, A2 etc., Sandy designated his "government" plants G1-23. None of these were used in any Sacred Seeds breeding program.

Sandy saved only a very few of these G clones,among these was G-13. He was to busy and never had a chance to do anything with it,so it stayed on the shelf.

But he saved it knowing it was a special plant, a "sport".In its pure form it was apparently not very pleasant smoke, tasting like lawn clippings,soaked in
a mixture of urine and feces (fecal flavors are common in pure afganicas) with a lovelly aftertaste of burning tires.

The shear power could not be denied however and that's what made the strain's rep. As I sayed,G-13 was a breeders plant,(see MJ Botony p70) for a description of a sport but basically it's a plant that shows benificial mutations which can be passed down to the next gen. In the case of G-13 it was a scraglly plant with lowish yields, but it had the desirable trait of massive resin production. So much so, that if you let it go to long it could supposedly choke itself.

Some sativas can do this, what Shanti calls the "Widow" sport is an example, but it's very rare in an indica.

It was during Nevil's 83/84 collection trips to the US that he aquired, from Sandy W the only G-13 cuttings to ever leave Sandy's garden.

Nevil returned to Holland and made three crosses with G-13 @ the Seed Bank.

G-13x Haze (in catolog only 1 yr, discontinued, no extent P1's)
G-13x Hashplant (discontinued, currently Sensi Seeds: mr nice)
G-13x Skunk#1 (last and, according to Nevil, the best of the G
crosses.

Nev gave Shanti the last of this stock. Shanti, after suffering alarmingly low germ rates initially from the 20 year old seeds, put them though a number of

breeding cycles and you all lucky bastarts are beta testing the results.)

Sandy Wienstein passed away in 1987. If you have the '88 edition of
Mel's Indoor Guide, then you have Mel's wonderfull euligy to his friend.
(Mel was part of the upstate NY group, which was a sattelitte of Sandy's
midwest group.

Mel and Co. were not breeders but the ran beta grows for Sandy's
Early Girl proj. Just look pic's captioned Durban poison x Afgani in upstate NY
from any of mel's books.)

For those who don't have this vintage edition, just turn your copy of
Mel's Deluxe MJ grow guide to the back cover. The guy in the red pendelton
shirt and the long hair and shades, Thats Sandy. You owe him more than you
know


nom de fluer




* Prior to becoming Special White Hose Advisor (read: National Drug Czar) Carlton Turner, from 1971 to 1980, was the head of all U.S. government marijuana grown for drugs by reason of his position at the University of Mississippi. The U. of Mississippi Marijuana Research Program is directed by state charter to discover—initiate or sort out the constituents of THC—a “simple” crude cannabis drug that works as a medicine—then synthesize the substances with beneficial medicinal properties to attain their full potential for pharmaceutical companies.

Nom de fleur is the same guy that wrote the (fictional) post about how Sam was busted but got out on bail and returend to the warehouse grow op and saved many plants and seeds from the dumpster out back?

Some people have nothing better to do than dream up stories about things, sorry to rain on your parade hempy, but nom de fleur was exposed as a writer of pure fiction several years ago, Sam has posted a rebuttal of the Skunk story nom de fleur posted, Neville isn't around to do the same for the G13 one.