question for sam the skunkman on the original haze

[Guest]

Never seen red sap before, does indeed look like it's bleeding!

 

[Dalaihempy]

gracias Sam

Not these seeds were 1 generation after Odltimer spared them. Must say also he always acted like a gentleman to us. He spared houndreds of them during the 90's as he said, also he spared seeds of 3 different Haze lines. These are 1 of those, he never got news about other 2. Is only info I remember. An old thread at CW ended up also really messy and polemic but for what we wanted, information about plants, to talk about plants, was dificult to extract any info at all which could help and maybe lead us in some growing and selecting direction... Maybe better like this, so not other influence when we looked at them for the first time.

Much appreciated

You know charlie i think wich ever way you step on the topic of 0t1 sativa line its bound to step on toes .

I personaly dont know ot1 have read a little about him and he seams okay guy.

If its the post at shantis forum at cw your talking about thats were pacific came in and called wolfman a thief for passing on the seed right the seeds he was gifted to start with.

The thing i found realy sad was wolfman was gifted seeds by pacific who was given them by ot1,Pacific called them old sativa seeds and sed she couldnt grow them were she was so past them onto wolf man were he ran them germed them and had x amount germ from the small number he made seed and Gant past them on to a few people around the world i was offerd them sed no as im sure you rember.

The thing i realy didnt like about the ot1 sativa line is this in short.

I started to read how this was the oldest haze and how the dutch haze was now so inbreed it was realy not even close to ot1 haze now this is no way directed at you / or ace seeds or at breederschoice seed co but more directed at any that sed the dutch haze as people called it was realy sub standed next to ot1s sativa.

Is it me alone that sees this to be realy rong.

Heres a few posts from ot1.


Originally Posted by Oldtimer1 at bcg forum
My haze was brought here [uk] from the states during its development it was still being developed field scale and may not represent the finished product. From what I have gleaned the nearest to the real thing on sale in Europe was sold by Wernard of Positronics. After he went bankrupt his stock and seed Co was taken over by Dutch passion / Home grown fantaseeds. Both these seed banks are run by relatives. The thing is that the spec for their haze has been changed from posies one in a big reduction on the finish time on 12/12. I suspect they have made a cross to a non dom indica.The thing is if you want to grow real haze it takes 12 to 16 weeks on 12/12 the very best being the late ones. The only other Haze that may have some of the original one in could be Nevils haze but greenhouse haven't published its spec yet but once again I suspect it will have indica added we will see. Most the other so called haze are lambs breath and Thai crosses. In fact in Holland haze has become a generic term for a sat with a strong up high.

http://www.cannabase.com/cl/bcga/chat/chat-dec15.htm





oldtimer1Apr 6 2004, 01:44 AM
I was involved in contributing genetics in the early days towards the breeding of what later became skunk#1, but I don’t like what it has become now. I loved field grown haze from SoCal when it was first being developed. Todays versions are pale in comparison.

http://uk420.com/boards/lofiversion/index.php/t22714.htm

Wasnt haze grown and developed in Greenhouses ?.




Like i sed theres times no matter wich way you try and turn your going to step on toes.


What ever ot1 sativa line is it looks nice people injoy it that have grown it so thats whats importent.


I just find it od that this community has a habbit of rubbishing old pioners not directed at you by the way but stateing how i feel personaly from wat iv read / seen threw the years and the community to me has started to act like paparazi that stalk selebs take pictures and right what they see fit under a picture that seldems has truth to there wards yet people belive it.

The Community talk about people be it sam / nevile / and others like they know them personaly and know what they have done or got up to well the comminity dont have a clue in short only few people know the facts and they seam reluctent or at best give a little of the full story so i feel best ways to just show respect and let there work speek for them if they dont.

 

[charlie garcia]

Hola Hempy

I know your point and others. Sincerelly we tried to get out of any disrespects or internet polemics and concentrated only in plants. Ive read many opinions but not a clue about plants. Opinions dont help much. Our lenguage is plants and in that sense we acted and still act.

I would like to know more about Haze plants, haze ancestors and try to improve job if possible as seeds came here like that, named old hazes. I dont think anyway ACE OT seeds will be in the market too long as goal was ppl catched attention to old sativa genetics and job is almost done. Is everyones turn now to select and improve them if they like or can do it.

Sincerelly most of internet polemics like that one unconcentrate me from job so much.. I am not interested and not disrespecting anyone, pls understand me well. I care about plants and worry about genetics... is where I have my fun and think we can be more useful. Growing, describing and documenting what we found. An there is not much of old lines available to restore. We sent fresh seeds later to wolfman to OT and to Pacific.. we did our part with all honesty (a strange word, isnt it?) We asked everyone involved what could we do with the seeds as OT felt himslef he had failed to give them good life when spared them all for free. OT and wolf collaborated and provided us with all best info they had and we agreed on releasing them to public so. I can talk and do to Wolfman or to OT face to face and we feel quite well with our jobs as although may sound silly, we love genetics.

Once a few things were cleared up I dont want to highjack any line in this thread any longer as its Sam the man who worked them and has the knowdlege, facts and truths to talk and who deserves all merits... he said he collected all haze lines in the beginning, cross them to and later inbred them... only thing we can do here is learn if so but dont think we can add much talking about polemics or origins... these are 100% sativa haze lines, profile, traits, flavours etc... same polemics have been always in scene as far as I remember... and often a way to hide the truths. Sometimes when we dont know a fact we can ramble around and with the time seems to become the truth. So long has passed since those times to know now for sure.

You know a phrase I learnt when started in this, I trust plants, I cant trust ppl... to create an original hybrid like haze or others use to take years, to be hacked by others takes 5 minutes and hey can take all the merit... we all know how facts can be distorted or misunderstood with the time as well... I have not the answers to these polemics, we only grew all those real sativa haze seeds... thats why I am asking Sam as well here for some info... with all my respect and sincerity... so many words for just a few real facts at the end, sounds like a waste of energy to me and I am getting older I see so dont wanna waste it much... prefer to look and talk about plants

my respect hempy and everyone

 

[cway]

Charlie

Charlie

Muy bein diecho hermano... La gente se olvida que somos unidos por la misma planta. La mata de Mari...


Very well said charlie... People sometime forget that we are united by the same plant..


Much Respect and Great Thread all..

 

[Guest]

I agree that the word Haze became a generic term in Holland a long time ago, but to be honest, I've seen mislabelled weed in Holland right from the first time I went there in 1995. The Thai x Lambsbread thing mystifies me though, never heard that said before.

Hiya hempy, perhaps the thing with both the Haze and the OT1 Haze you grew is selection, Tom Hill said that 1 in 20 of the Haze he grew(that he bought at Positronics) were special, the rest hay. Perhaps it is a case of, unless you are comparing the special ones, they will all be disappointing?

 

[Zam]

Hempy, I don't think it is as much anyone trying to discredit the pioneers, as much as being aligned with different pioneers and the versions of events that they convey. Neville, Sam, Wernard, Djshort, Oldtimer, and Shanti all say slightly different things. Then you have the guys who were a generation older like Mel Frank, Old Ed, or E from Humboldt. Everyone thinks that their guy is right and does so at the expense of anothe guy's reputation. All of these guys contributed in their own way. Some created new heirlooms, some like Mel worked lines a little but mostly spread around knowledge and genetics. Some of the genes I've grown from the guys who were the generation before hold their own with anything that I've come across.

I feel that every breeder, unless they're grabbing feral hemp from the wild, is standing on the shoulders of those who came before them. I'm not going to say everything that was done by all these guys was constructive, as some of it was completely destructive. But, for the most part they did what they thought was right at the time, and they deserve credit for that.

In my experience, frequently the people who deserve the credit are often the last ones to step up and accept it, because often the best work is done out of love and passion for the work, not for accolades and recognition, and I tend to align myself with the underdog, the quiet ones standing back in the corner, looking like they know something the others do not. In this particular instance, however, noone can say they deserve all the credit, except perhaps some ancient ganja farming monestary in India.

 

[Raco]

Tom Hill OHaze

Last pic is of the plangt I kept, great herb, picky to grow indoors for sure. So these are of yours Sam? Original or not, it's great, made a few crosses already, interesting to see how it blended with Sweet Tooth, many of the crosses I have had the pleasure to grow and taste are just fantastic, CBF's Strawberry Creme X OHaze purple pheno (yes these pop from Tom's beans also) aka Strawberry Haze is just amazing....

Great info in this thread, the world needs facts and here we have them...Im a young sprout but done read a pile of High Times mags and some of the timelines I see here just dont fit...Neville himself told that he didnt actually do anything new just cross and breed things that were already bred, and he indeed started with shit for beans he has said this himself, and he started business years after skunk and haze and such were well known varieties, at least in USA. But I wasnt there either.

Very nice FJ
Here is one of the Ot1´s female cuts,is there much difference??

 

[manicobsession]

great thread everybody,keep the info rolling

 

[Dalaihempy]

I agree that the word Haze became a generic term in Holland a long time ago, but to be honest, I've seen mislabelled weed in Holland right from the first time I went there in 1995. The Thai x Lambsbread thing mystifies me though, never heard that said before.

Hiya hempy, perhaps the thing with both the Haze and the OT1 Haze you grew is selection, Tom Hill said that 1 in 20 of the Haze he grew(that he bought at Positronics) were special, the rest hay. Perhaps it is a case of, unless you are comparing the special ones, they will all be disappointing?

Hiya British_Hempire i think the ward haze is used a lot but like i say unless its linket to the haze brothers line it cant be haze.

On the boards i see many pictures of strains called this or that and few match up to the old lines i rember with the names used.

I havent grown ot1 line was offerd it by gant but i sed no as i wonted nothing to do with it and had my resons i told gant them privertly.

Sam or others that worket haze should answear that question about haze but i do know haze was unstable why they put work into the line.

I dont know to much about Positronics but i belive there haze lines were haze hybreeds sam needs to comment on this as i dont know 100% but i do know that even 50% haze hybreeds can and often do need more than 14 weeks to mature in all honesty not to many 50% haze hybreeds i have run have been ready at 14 weeks more 16 weeks and the only time i have seen them come in faster was from running clones of the seed plants selected.

 

[Dalaihempy]

Hola Hempy

I know your point and others. Sincerelly we tried to get out of any disrespects or internet polemics and concentrated only in plants. Ive read many opinions but not a clue about plants. Opinions dont help much. Our lenguage is plants and in that sense we acted and still act.

Hiya charlie i can honestly say i never read a bad thing from you or ace seeds like i sed its not directed at you guys my comments are honest and i feel some times no matter how you turn your going to step on toes but as you know charlie facts are as importent.

I would like to know more about Haze plants, haze ancestors and try to improve job if possible as seeds came here like that, named old hazes. I dont think anyway ACE OT seeds will be in the market too long as goal was ppl catched attention to old sativa genetics and job is almost done. Is everyones turn now to select and improve them if they like or can do it.

Charlie i think the best people to ask is those that worket the lines i think the ot1 sativa line is a good sativa hybreed line just by what people have seed that have grown it.

Theres a market for it and realy few people want to make seeds them selfs so why seed co have a place and always will mate.

Sincerelly most of internet polemics like that one unconcentrate me from job so much.. I am not interested and not disrespecting anyone, pls understand me well. I care about plants and worry about genetics... is where I have my fun and think we can be more useful. Growing, describing and documenting what we found. An there is not much of old lines available to restore. We sent fresh seeds later to wolfman to OT and to Pacific.. we did our part with all honesty (a strange word, isnt it?) We asked everyone involved what could we do with the seeds as OT felt himslef he had failed to give them good life when spared them all for free. OT and wolf collaborated and provided us with all best info they had and we agreed on releasing them to public so. I can talk and do to Wolfman or to OT face to face and we feel quite well with our jobs as although may sound silly, we love genetics.

Well yes growing is what it should be about sadly charlie more find polutics and self gain / stroking ones ego more to there likeing now days.

Im with you in that growing is what it should be about.

Old lines are still out there but you realy need to know the right people to get them most are very noid and for good reson safty being a big one on there mond.

Yes you guys did your part like i sed i respect you / ace seeds did nothing rong so please dont feel this is about you guys.

I like wolfman read his posts at cw he posted a lot in shantis forum as did i he got seeds as did pacific who didnt desrve a thing from were im siting the same time ace seeds got seeds and others from gant as did ot1 and i was offerd them to sed no like i sed.

Do you know what my probleam is with ot1 line charlie ?.

I will tell you its the fact that people now belive its the oldest purest haze avaluble and for it to be haze is has to be from the haze brothers wich its not charlie.

I to am intrested in the plants and there related info why i put my self in this position.

Ot1 has sed this is haze came from the haze brothers then has sed its the haze used to creat the haze by the haze brothers.

Theres more storys but no point .

Heres a few posts from ot1.


Originally Posted by Oldtimer1 at bcg forum
My haze was brought here [uk] from the states during its development it was still being developed field scale and may not represent the finished product. From what I have gleaned the nearest to the real thing on sale in Europe was sold by Wernard of Positronics. After he went bankrupt his stock and seed Co was taken over by Dutch passion / Home grown fantaseeds. Both these seed banks are run by relatives. The thing is that the spec for their haze has been changed from posies one in a big reduction on the finish time on 12/12. I suspect they have made a cross to a non dom indica.The thing is if you want to grow real haze it takes 12 to 16 weeks on 12/12 the very best being the late ones. The only other Haze that may have some of the original one in could be Nevils haze but greenhouse haven't published its spec yet but once again I suspect it will have indica added we will see. Most the other so called haze are lambs breath and Thai crosses. In fact in Holland haze has become a generic term for a sat with a strong up high.

http://www.cannabase.com/cl/bcga/chat/chat-dec15.htm





oldtimer1Apr 6 2004, 01:44 AM
I was involved in contributing genetics in the early days towards the breeding of what later became skunk#1, but I don’t like what it has become now. I loved field grown haze from SoCal when it was first being developed. Todays versions are pale in comparison.

http://uk420.com/boards/lofiversion/index.php/t22714.htm

Wasnt haze grown and developed in Greenhouses ?.

.

I dont know why so many think soon as any line hit the dutch boarders it went to shit facts are lots of work went on there from breeders from all over the world the NL was used as the laws were good only reson work was done there.


Haze as i know it was done in greenhouses was not breed worket on by the haze brothers they were growers not breeders created something special that others worket did the breeding.


Im not posting this to rubbish any one but ot1 also says he basicly was involved in contributing genetics in the early days towards the breeding of what later became skunk#1 wich i find hard to belive.

No idear wat the ot1 sativa line is but its good all that matters.

I heard that a lot called there lines haze in cali back them that i have not heard of maybe sam can answear that all i know is for it to be real haze it needed to of come from the guys called the haze brothers.

Once a few things were cleared up I dont want to highjack any line in this thread any longer as its Sam the man who worked them and has the knowdlege, facts and truths to talk and who deserves all merits... he said he collected all haze lines in the beginning, cross them to and later inbred them... only thing we can do here is learn if so but dont think we can add much talking about polemics or origins... these are 100% sativa haze lines, profile, traits, flavours etc... same polemics have been always in scene as far as I remember... and often a way to hide the truths. Sometimes when we dont know a fact we can ramble around and with the time seems to become the truth. So long has passed since those times to know now for sure.

Yes only those that worket the line can answear the questions relating to haze.

You know a phrase I learnt when started in this, I trust plants, I cant trust ppl... to create an original hybrid like haze or others use to take years, to be hacked by others takes 5 minutes and hey can take all the merit... we all know how facts can be distorted or misunderstood with the time as well... I have not the answers to these polemics, we only grew all those real sativa haze seeds... thats why I am asking Sam as well here for some info... with all my respect and sincerity... so many words for just a few real facts at the end, sounds like a waste of energy to me and I am getting older I see so dont wanna waste it much... prefer to look and talk about plants

my respect hempy and everyone

I to trust plants and still trust people but very few now days charlie the on line canna community is way diffrent to the small group of growers i new growing up threw the years even people i met threw people with a wide range of ages were diffrent to most in the on line community.


charlie like i sed mate what ever the ot1 line is people are happy growing it and smokeing it in all reality thats whats importent .

 

[ngakpa]

Wild Sativas and Sativas cultivated for for sinsemilla like Thai have hermi problems, old time Colombian and mexican of the highest quality did not have hermi problems like you talk about.
charlie garcia,
"Sam have you ever brougth those worked Hazes or Thais to be grown back in Thailand for instance or in any other highland area of a different country?"

I don't believe in taking improved western bred Cannabis to areas of traditional Cannabis cultivation, they may spread their genes around and I don't think it is good.
BTW, Also it was 10,000 males, not 10,000 plants.
-SamS

Hiya - just my tuppence, but ex-pat farang I know who grow SE Asian cultivars in their region of origin report almost never finding hermies... even in the very old school creeper growth habit sinsi cultivars

occasionally friends have found hermies growing out seeds picked up in tourist areas in the Gulf islands

obviously none of the above is meant as an implied put down, it's just the info I have

btw I think you would need to pay farmers here in order to get them to grow out western genetics...

of course plenty of ex-pats have the odd stand of western hybrids and IBLs, but that is about the extent of it...

and the indoor growing scene is still a very, very minor thing here - some local SE Asian smokers in the cities and on the backpacker routes are getting into the western indoor style... memory says it goes to the smoker for about $5 per g, so presumably it's a market with plenty of growth potential

 

[charlie garcia]

Hempy, understand my friend and know what you mean.... so at the end we better talk plants.. lets allow them to express themselves. Hope more ppl grow sativas although prohibition and artificial lights have played a big rol against them. Hope some hazes may develop here outdoors and maybe in ten years we can talk again about them as it would mean those old genetics are still alive.

Although if I had to be worried, I will be more worried about present local commercial scenario mercenario and so few ppl growing sativas now which makes them not worthy to work them commercially. Cant be much optimistic so

best

 

[Dalaihempy]

Hiya charlie i think talking plants is the best to.

Odly many here now are seeking bush weed as its called (out door grown sativas ) to hydro grown comercial cannabis.

So it may spark intrest in people running more sativas out doors agine that would not of in the past but i would also love to see and hope to see more people offer more sativas of old for those that want them and offer more of a range of sativas that were comman place once.

 

[Guest]

Have seen the RED BLOOD many many times!!!!!

Have seen the RED BLOOD many many times!!!!!

Great thread guys.

You've inspired me to germ the last 6 OH seeds I had.I tried them once before but they didn't turn out so good.These things are beasts indoors and the take about 8 weeks to even show sex.









The last time i grew them when I topped them the sap that came out looked just like blood,it will be interesting to see if it repeats.





Hey Sam,I think I've uncovered your top secret program-CODE NAME:
INJECT-A-SKUNK

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=82716&page=1

JLP

THAT RED BLOOD has the making of some sticky resins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seen many times in many sativas i know the red blood well........
GOOD PIC JLP!!!....just wait till you feel the resins an smoke!!!
This blood is what i always use to talk of in MJ plants.

THe more that shit developes as in late growth,the more complex RESINS!
Oh boy JLP i hope your doing a thread on them seeds?

 

[Bluebeard]

Yep, the red sap is supposedly why the Colombians called it Punto Rojo, and have seen it in the finer more pure leaning Punto Rojo's so I think it could be true. Possibly a sign, that perhaps a few different types of colombians were used by the bros in the haze's creation.

Sam, what do you feel the Colombians that the Haze bros used were like? Were they longer flowering than the Thais and Indians? Have you come across any hazes which went for ten to thirteen months or more of long nights in the populations you grew, or plants which reached floral maturity and went back into vegetative growth without any change in light cycle? If so, what part of the pedigree did you feel these lean towards?

 

[Psychosativa]

Hey, this could be a sticky

 

[Guest]

Yah sticky this and show some pics!!!!!

Yah sticky this and show some pics!!!!!

Thats you SAM!!!!

Would love to see pics of some sativas he grew?

Here is an old 1983 PRIME SUBJECT ASIAN GIRL..




This sucker had really dark
RED BLOOD and i was a happy guarilla grower way back then.......

 

[bigherb]

crazy hazy that looks sweeeet. wat was the smoke like on this asian girl . btw is this any relation to refeerman asia girl.

 

[charlie garcia]

nice to see those pictures of old sativas Lougrew!. Not much documented and only in words. I had to develop own pictures in a black and white home laboratory in those days here.

In those times we called best marrocan "blond" hash like "pollen". Starting with plants only plants I saw were dropping pollen were males so... later I understood why such pollen couldnt put me high at all ha ha ha Not weed culture at all in Spain but old hippies villages in Alpujarras, canary island or Ibiza but almost nothing left here from those days.

So early growing results were so pathetic!

remember also first marrocan seeds I dropped.. those plants were huge and much more branchy and stonger structured than todays... but dont knwo if it was the common type of plants there and then.

here some mexicans or colombians

best

 

[Ras Pablo]

I love those vintage pics kaiki