KFB vs. DWC vs. Bio-buckets

Preface: I'm talking about "tree" style growing here with a diagram like so:

x = lights
o = plants

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I'm so confused, I'm familiar about how both systems work but what I don't understand is (please correct me if I'm wrong) why KFB is claimed to yield more then DWC? Also, if it was greater then DWC, why don't I see anyone growing with that style? Also, are bio-buckets a contender in this situation?

I just don't know which type is best for "trees"
DWC?
KFB?
Bio-buckets?

of the mind

ok heres my best breakdown for you pumpkiin2006.. anyone else if ya want jump in and correct me.


Krusty Freedom Buckets: 2 5 gal buckets inside of each other w/ a net pot upside down to keep the buckets apart a little. Inside the bucket in the bottom is soaker hose attached to a thomas air pump (dont have the specs). The bucket is filled with lava rock (cheaper and krusty said it actually worked better though I have no experience w/ differences). Each bucket has a 1/4" line running nute solution to each bucket 24/7 keeping the nutrients balanced in each bucket.


The reason why Krusty jumped up and down about why his system was the best is a couple of reasons... most have to do with production of large large plants and the problems associated with it.(read he/his boys changed things over the years to make it foolproof)

So you asked why does the KFB yield more? well first the KFB system meant that you vegged the plants for at least 2 mo. in some cases longer. W/ every other system noone ever trys groing that big.. so you never had yields per plant that big.

now,, there's another reason why,, with a DWC the water your using can only hold so much Oxygen per water temp. Higher the temp less Oxygen. With KFB using the soaker hose and a HIGH PRESSURE pump like the Thomas would make the small 1 1/2 inches of solution foam up into the bottom bucket half way atleast! That foaming action is very similar to aeroponics and if you have a roots sitting in air getting bathed by water they will have more Oxygen than if they sat directly in water. makes sense right? Now what most dont know is this technique of fizzing water in a small amount of solution with a pot above is called Ein Garde technique it was developed in Isreal in the last 25 yrs.. that 's all I know about it.. or can remember.

Now the soaker hose besides creating more OXygen than a DWC also gives a better tool to a job. Soaker hose is indestrudible,, pretty much.. so leaving it in a bucket for 2.5 mo veg + 2 mo flower = 4.5 mo.. you would need to change whatever system you use to put oxygen in with a DWC(like airstones or the like).

the net pot was also crucial it gives room for the air to escape alot.. and properly stands the 5 gal off of the other 5 gal space wise inside of each other still.

Now for the reasons why people dont grow KFB style
1. 4.5 mo old plants have a great chance of getting infested w/ mold , insects also
2. getting in and around 4.5 mo old plants is a huge bitch unless spaced exactly like Krusty/serafis did.
3.tying up colas although fun the first time becomes a major bitch and hassle.. unless chicken wire is used on the ceinling.. even then your still tying each and every one up.
4.Most people never bought the thomas air pump... it costs money and was very loud. without that you absoluetly cant run the system.. because normal air pumps will break their diaghram and be uselessin days.
5.proper genetics are crucial to 3 lb plants. over 3/4 lb wasn't an issue with shiskaberry not even done perfect though.
6.the system was quite different than anyone saw,, and krusty would talk trash and tell everyone to shutup if they didn't just do what he said. Most people didn't believe him about the vertical hung bulbs, sealed rooms, huge trees.. but then again this was like 6 yrs ago or more.
7.Flooding can and will happen. He I'm sure figured it out... but after a plant gets Mo. old it has roots going down the drains eventually clogging them.. and when the plant is tied up to the ceiling big .. its kinda hard to pick it up.


DWC=extremely easy,, can and will produce great yields,, low startup costs.
-smaller control of system,, need water chiller to fully utilize,, will grow nasty trees but not as nasty as KFB.


NO experience with bio-buckets.. I think they are very cool.. they look like a longer process to build, are in a rigid form,, as in they aren't made to be scattered in a huge 30' x 30' room. I also think that with large trees grown for a long time , the ability to move them, and flexibility with the system, and easy of use is most important,, I have always stayed away from bio-buckets for this reason.

I hope this helps.. otherwise maybe gets the conversation started.

I dont think ebb n grow systems should be discounted.. they should will grow as good as DWC.. being easier to move, setup than, cheaper.. it seems they are very good. Plus they also use less water than DWC. and have less to go wrong Ie temps,, and separate air pumps

thanks for taking the time to explain this.It helps a newbie like me.Thanks again

GorillaGrower excellent post.

excellent post GG let me just add that in the krusty freedom bucket the root ball sits in a 5 gallon bucket as opposed to a net pot. the extra medium adds more support to the root strucutre and allows for a larger plant. larger plant = more bud. also because there is a gap between the rims of the two buckets the root strucuture is able to respire (just like the leaves) and toxins produced by the roots excape allowing for the most stress free enviornment. because the system was top fed i believe this also contributed to yeilds as the upper roots of a plant are specilized for nutrient uptake while the lower and lateral roots for water.

GG can you discuss further the pump/diffuser system used by krusty?

Great info thanks.

How do ebb and flow buckets work?

I have been doing DWC experiments for a dozen seasons now, and still do not understand it that well, but I am learning. What I would like to know is - if I am a competant grower, with a few heavy tree pheno's to work with, will it be worth my time to build a recirculating system? If DWC yields 2-3 zips, will my yield go up under the same conditions? How much yield difference will there be in the same room with just an auto top off waterfarm type system, vs a recirc or bio system?

From my dwc perspective, I get no leaks, because I have no holes drilled below water lines, seems simple.

It would be cool to hear from someone who has grown dwc, and bio or KFB to hear their take on the pros and cons.
H

yes great post GG. I dont think people emphasize enough how nice it is to have flexible tubes. The Biobucket and people who try to use hard pvc piping for DWC (which I discourage against) have to plan out the entire grow even better then I do because theres no moving of anything. With my DWC systems, the plants all fill out a little different and this enables me to crowd some and give room to others. In my 12 plant grow, I have 3 plants that are twice the size of everything else, so I needed to give them about 1/6th the space each instead of 1/12 and I couldnt have done that without flexible feed and drain lines.

I am also glad you brought up the point about LONG veg times. This was always a point that people never followed through on and then wondered why they didnt yield the same as Krusty.

And finally...when it comes down to it...I have seen every single type of system or growing medium yield 3 pounds per light. I have seen soil yield 3 pounds per light, whether its in a flowerbox or large pots or sea of green. I have seen E/F tables yield the same with hundreds of single colas or only a few square pots that were screened into a beautiful even canopy. All these systems have the capacity to yield incredible amounts if your environment and genetics are prime. Your probably best off picking one and just rocking that system for a few years to REALLY learn everything.

The longer you can continue to use the same genetics or the same equipment or same location or same room...the better your stuff will be. you will learn all the querks of your stuff. I will be doing Recirculating DWC for years to come as I fine the system perfect for what I do and the yields are incredible. I also find clean up very easy. However over the next 5 years I will find time to try all the other systems a few times for myself, even the ones I have already tried atleast to give them a go again. Nothing is better then seeing the comparison yourself.

Thanks a bunch everyone, that really clears some things up.

So I was thinking of doing a "tree" style grow just to keep my plant counts under raps and be all legal. I can have my girl go get a card and then I'll be allow around 50-70 plants.

So the real question is (because I was already leaning towards DWC) can you grow semi trees in DWC with closer spaced buckets and maybe a little less veg time (I'm willing to veg for a month) and yield the same as a KFB setup? Also in that type of setup, would you hang lights horizontally or vertically?

Thanks!

pumpkin2006 said:

Thanks a bunch everyone, that really clears some things up.

So I was thinking of doing a "tree" style grow just to keep my plant counts under raps and be all legal. I can have my girl go get a card and then I'll be allow around 50-70 plants.

So the real question is (because I was already leaning towards DWC) can you grow semi trees in DWC with closer spaced buckets and maybe a little less veg time (I'm willing to veg for a month) and yield the same as a KFB setup? Also in that type of setup, would you hang lights horizontally or vertically?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

First if your thinking Krusty Freedom buckets style and your thinking about 50-70 plants your talking about a 35k watt or more grow.. minimum. probably more like 60k watt.. he put 1000 watt and 600 watt bulbs one per plant.


Second.. Yes you can grow whatever you want. small trees in dwc is fine. the thing with all this is use what makes sense. You can use rubbermaid tubs and put a few per tub.. this would give small trees great for scrogging. It just all depends on what makes sense. And DWC isn't scalable to huge sizes.

No your Not going to yield as much.. the whole point is vegging plants till there 4 feet tall + is what produces plants that put out 3 lbs..

What ever you do dont try to start blending stuff.. just do one system and go with it. First determine lighting, how many? How much space? Then determine what makes sense for the space. Your style. If your style is trees go krusty, or ebb n grow ,, if your style is scrog go dwc. If you stick to a small system.. it doesn't matter as much.. but in a large system it needs efficiency.

I hope this helps.

C21H30O2 said:

excellent post GG let me just add that in the krusty freedom bucket the root ball sits in a 5 gallon bucket as opposed to a net pot. the extra medium adds more support to the root strucutre and allows for a larger plant. larger plant = more bud. also because there is a gap between the rims of the two buckets the root strucuture is able to respire (just like the leaves) and toxins produced by the roots excape allowing for the most stress free enviornment. because the system was top fed i believe this also contributed to yeilds as the upper roots of a plant are specilized for nutrient uptake while the lower and lateral roots for water.

GG can you discuss further the pump/diffuser system used by krusty?

Click to expand...

Exactly.. thanks this is definetly from his posts. and to add

Lava Rock was important because it was Heavy and would keep a good support.

The system is pretty much a home depot Ein Garde system.

Haps said:

I have been doing DWC experiments for a dozen seasons now, and still do not understand it that well, but I am learning. What I would like to know is - if I am a competant grower, with a few heavy tree pheno's to work with, will it be worth my time to build a recirculating system? If DWC yields 2-3 zips, will my yield go up under the same conditions? How much yield difference will there be in the same room with just an auto top off waterfarm type system, vs a recirc or bio system?

From my dwc perspective, I get no leaks, because I have no holes drilled below water lines, seems simple.

It would be cool to hear from someone who has grown dwc, and bio or KFB to hear their take on the pros and cons.?

Click to expand...

Haps.. if your containers are connected then the nutrient solution will balance between them in concentration.(via some rule/law of physics i think)

Otherwise,, using a res and 5 gal containers has some other benefits besides just keeping things mixed..
you also get a single place to check the ph tds ec
you get one place to change the water
you get a chance to give plenty of Oxygen to the nutrient solution via falling when going to the pot and coming back.. without using stones to clog.
you can use a single spot to hook up a chiller if needed.


KFB> ebb n grow(krypto bucket)> recirculating DWC> DWC imo e but would only go kfb if you have the space, resources.

trying to tred carefully here.. bio buckets are intersting.. but only reason I wouldn't recommend them is ... with all these systems if the enviro is perfect.. your going to to well.... but with the Bio buckets if the eviro is off a little your playing with the Devil in my opinion compared to a few of the other choices.
The pump diffuser.. was pretty simple.. from grainger catalog theres a thomas air pump .. someone here will chime in at some point soon i'm sure. But it costs about 250$ i think. no biggie. you hook up pvc to 1/2" hose I think which runs to each bucket.. in the bottom theres a 5/8' t with a circle made from Soaker hose ( the stuff at home depot walmart for gardens) .. the 1/2" or 5/8" airline or whatever runs to that. I'll look at the grainger catalog and see if I can find it for ya all.

No KFB grower that I know needs to veg for 2 months. I can get my plants 5ft in 4 weeks.

Soaker hose is crap. There are much better choices today.

DWC and Bio Buckets are a joke compared to KFB.

The only reason to grow KFB is for low plant numbers and ease of operation. Otherwise considering watts/grams/time, you would be better off with SOG.

Your layout is all wrong. What is the size of your room?

Whats used now instead of soaker hose? I don't care but might as well update the memory banks.

umm blind date did you just say they grow to 5ft in 4 weeks. And your getting the usual 3 lb/per right?

thanks for settin the record straight DHF . I'll be sure to check in there from time to time.

We'll most specifics are gonna help so:

2 - 10'x12 rooms. I have 6k digital hps/mh and am going to either buy 6 more or something like 10 600's, depending on which is better suited for my grow.

Really what I want to accomplish is my legal plant count with great yield. Since I will have two rooms, I will be cycling them for veg and flower. Basically a month into flowering in one room I will start vegging in the other room. So 24 plants in each room.

I just read Bunkerbuds (I think thats his name) 6000w ebb n' grow journal. I basically want to do something like that; would people go with ebb n' grows or DWC for that situation?

Howdy pumpkin, DEDHEDFRED knows his shit so listen to what he has to say.

IMO if you have the cash and you wanna get started right now, get a couple ebb and grows, their fuckin' plug and play and they do produce, ive done enough ebb and flow to know that for a fact. I only say get the ebb and grows not because they are better or worse than any system discussed so far, its just the fact that like i said they are plug and play, just read the directions, set it up and your off and runnin. The nutes the lights and all the other hoo ha is up to you.

best of luck

bonz







>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nam myoho renge kyo!!!!!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

yo bonzo.. do you prefer the standard 2 gal or making a 3.5 or 5 gal?

In the bucket type systems I see for sale, the water feed runs out the bottom of the res, to the bottom of each bucket. To a hole in the bottom of each bucket, which could/will, leak. Will it work if I run the top off/feed line from the res, inside the bucket through a hole above the water line, and attach to the bottom? This is my next upgrade, after three years of hand watering, auto feed sounds good, but I can't handle leaks. It is hard to get into water this bloom, for an old man anyway.
H

DHF you rock and so do the rest of you for helping me.

BTW I just finished reading a bunch of Krusty's posts over at PG and I feel dumber. That guy is so mean and just hateful. I cant at all see how he wants to cultivate peace... ok enough bashing him, sorry to rant to ya'll about it but it makes me feel so emotionally negative.

Even if his system is so cool, I don't wanna use it. I see SOG growers (of course more plants) doing commercial operations that yield more weed for the amount of area thats used by a KFB system. It is not the optimal "commercial" system out there, if it was, commercial people would be using them because they're out to make money.

I think I'm gonna check out the ebb n' grows, does anybody have a good source on them, that they could link please?