The Future of Energy

[bentom187]

heres a little paridigm shift,why wait for a sustainable grid from the nation? just hook your own house up with what you need if ya have one.

heres a simple frame work for what ya need to do, http://www.kimdara.com/solar3/index.html

 

[TLoft13]

Subsidized or not? If it is subsidized, then the cost of the energy produced is more expensive. Why would you want to pay more for your power? Just to prove you are cool? Like driving a Prius in south park?

Look, these fucking solar plants CANNOT be built unless the developer can get either government grants or government loan guarantees. Why? Because the power these plants produce cost more then just about any other normal power source. so developers will not develop solar plants UNLESS they can get free money from the government or guarantees from the government to re-pay their loans.

Solar is bullshit and will remain so until it produces a watt of power at the same cost you can by a watt today on the open market. This is why our Dick of a president is making all other sources of energy more expensive.

http://www.mydesert.com/article/20110630/BUSINESS/110630010/1003/RSS02

Grapeman i totaly agree with your assesment from an economic point of view. IMHO though this isn't the whole picture. All the externalized costs, like your fellow countrymen dying for cheap oil, the pollution of our planet or the quality of life for our children and their children aren't displayed in the market value of our commodities. Likewise, our economic controlmechanisms aren't good for anticipating/ mitigating structural change. It's fine and dandy that oil is still cheaper today than solarpower ect., but if you're only guided by this you'll probably be in deep, deep trouble the day after tommorow. Look at the Hirsch report for example, sponsored by the american government, not likely to be tin-foil wearing. Not implementing structural changes in our energy sector before oil becomes really expensive will probably lead to a decade-long(!) economic crisis of unheard proportions.

 

[Dudesome]

yup. just like I said - nobody cares for longterm quality of life. Everyone wants to get payed Today.

 

[joeuser]

heres a little paridigm shift,why wait for a sustainable grid from the nation? just hook your own house up with what you need if ya have one.

heres a simple frame work for what ya need to do, http://www.kimdara.com/solar3/index.html

Because it costs $25,000-50,000 to set your house up for solar...that's a WHOLE LOT of $200 monthly bills! About 15 years worth! And, by the time it's "paid for itself"...it's time to replace the batteries! For another $20,000! Plus...they used a whole lot of oil making all that solar stuff.

Grapeman i totaly agree with your assesment from an economic point of view. IMHO though this isn't the whole picture. All the externalized costs, like your fellow countrymen dying for cheap oil, the pollution of our planet or the quality of life for our children and their children aren't displayed in the market value of our commodities. Likewise, our economic controlmechanisms aren't good for anticipating/ mitigating structural change. It's fine and dandy that oil is still cheaper today than solarpower ect., but if you're only guided by this you'll probably be in deep, deep trouble the day after tommorow. Look at the Hirsch report for example, sponsored by the american government, not likely to be tin-foil wearing. Not implementing structural changes in our energy sector before oil becomes really expensive will probably lead to a decade-long(!) economic crisis of unheard proportions.

Ha! The BIGGEST liars on earth and you believe them? "Official" means...full of shit! Whatever the government touches turns into lies...so believe their "report" at your peril!

Like the one we're having NOW? It started in 2008 and has been postponed six months because of government printing money at the rate of $10 billion a day and GIVING it to the banks. wait until it sinks in that there were NO corporate profits and that the "recovery" is nothing more than $10 billion a day being printed and sent into the economy by the government. That ALL needs to be paid off eventually. Remember...when you have a child...they're born $50,000 in debt! It's unsustainable. And it keeps going up! When I was born it was about $1000...easily manageable. Today it's 2-3X peoples annual income!

And it's ALL because our "leaders" spend/give away too much! We NEED a 2 trillion dollar budget cut...to survive we need those cuts...what are YOU willing to give up? What are YOU willing to pay "full price" for when the government subsidies end? They HAVE to end...our survival IS at stake.

 

[TLoft13]

i could give you another dozen studies which basically came to the same conclusions.

And it's ALL because our "leaders" spend/give away too much! We NEED a 2 trillion dollar budget cut...to survive we need those cuts...what are YOU willing to give up? What are YOU willing to pay "full price" for when the government subsidies end? They HAVE to end...our survival IS at stake.

I suggest Helmut Creutz: "The money syndrom" if you want to know why your government hasn't got a chance of spending less money.

 

[joeuser]

i could give you another dozen studies which basically came to the same conclusions.
I suggest Helmut Creutz: "The money syndrom" if you want to know why your government hasn't got a chance of spending less money.

We agree...I was just pointing out that government data doesn't ensure correctness.

I know damn well that the government can't spend less. An "active" government relies on perpetual growth. It prefers exponential or logarithmic growth...but in a pinch...ANY growth. Without growth...population and revenues, government collapses.

I've read (I prefer audiobooks) 100 different opinions covering all sides. 1000s if you include online. Reagan had ONE thing right..."government isn't the solution to problems...it IS the problem". But he was a stooge like all the rest...he screwed us just like all the rest.

When people realize that our government officials are ALL placed there by big business...that the SCOTUS is ALSO bought and paid for...ALL acting for the large corporations and unions that put them there. That's when people will STOP voting either Dem or Rep EVER again and we can FINALLY start to fix this mess.

The "candidates" ALL already work for the corporations. That's the ONLY reason you get to vote for them. They should be required to WEAR their sponsors like race car drivers do! YOU don't choose who you're going to vote for...THEY do. It's like sheep getting to vote for which wolf is going to be in charge of the flock! Other sheep don't get put on the ballot...the other wolves eat them first.

This is where the also bought and paid for media come in. The other corporations pay the media for advertising...that's how the media stays in business. When the corporation that supports your business "asks" if you will run a story for them...they cooperate. Even if the story is a lie. A "reporter reported today...from an anonymous source...blah blah blah". Big corporation can also just OWN their own media company...problem solved! ALL good publicity.

This IS the matrix. Freedom is a lie. We're being grown for our labor and to serve as customers to buy whatever the conglomerates want to sell us. We're herded one way and then another. Consume and pay your monthly bill. It's YOUR purpose in life!

 

[turbolaser4528]

Its so true man, the Corps' in this country and worldwide have WAY too much influence and power over our governments. Its like the legal version of the mexican drug cartels, most everyone has a price. Most politicians are paid off and liars I believe, not surprising things move so slowly in this country.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

We once had a handle on corporate influence in the form of campaign donation limits, lobbying restrictions and regulation. Commerce was largely regulated for good reason... history. For almost four decades, income disparity was roughly 20:1.

In the early 1970s, we started to bend donation limits and lobbying restrictions. 1980 ushered in significant and substantial deregulation, campaign finance reform and a wave of lobbying never experienced in DC. Despite a two term democratic president, 30 years of deregulation has changed the playing field for the wealthy. Income disparity has exceeded 400:1.

 

[bentom187]

Because it costs $25,000-50,000 to set your house up for solar...that's a WHOLE LOT of $200 monthly bills! About 15 years worth! And, by the time it's "paid for itself"...it's time to replace the batteries! For another $20,000! Plus...they used a whole lot of oil making all that solar stuff.

.

welp fortunatley battery tech is improving matter of fact i beleive i seen a tv episode where they are trying to make a self sustaing car battery by way of hydrogen, so the quality should go up,and then you can enjoy it more 200$ a month,and if you have a electric car its a free ride also. im not seeing to many downsides.
yeah im aware that all plastics start off as byproducts of refinment so they pretty much have their hand in everything. so i wont feel bad if the internal combustion engine and coal plants go the way of the dinasours.

 

[Guest 88950]

Because it costs $25,000-50,000 to set your house up for solar...that's a WHOLE LOT of $200 monthly bills! About 15 years worth! And, by the time it's "paid for itself"...it's time to replace the batteries! For another $20,000! Plus...they used a whole lot of oil making all that solar stuff.

the cost is a major deterrent regarding the current PV tech but the cost per watt could be reduced somewhat if the sales increased to a point where raw materials and fixed overhead costs could be spread over a larger volume of units.

economies of scale play an important part to the success of any new technology.


remember PV panels are not the only way to get energy from the sun and Si based solar panels are not the only type of PV Panels.

 

[grapeman]

I don't know where you get off passing around idealist. You're an example of core beliefs defying realities like statistical demographics aka math.



Yep. Arnold helped get Davis recalled and then did a total-recall on the state of California.

No higher than the national average. Cali's in a position to liberally report unemployment figures while the federal government's figures tend to be conservative.

What you're really saying is commerce comes into and leaves the state at rates you have no clue.

I get it. Arnold didn't have the economy on total recall. He terminated it.

Pay attention dumb ass. You can thank conservative voter referendums for higher property taxes.

Arnold... eraser.... California

Well I hope they've given you all the attention you deserve,

fuck head.

Wow - I post up some factual links for your education but you find it easier to just lie.
California has a NET LOSS of businesses leaving this shitty socialist state. That is a fact.
California has a HIGHER unemployment rate. That is a fact.
Californians pay MORE for their energy then most other states due to ignoramuses and idealist such as yourself. This directly effects the first 2 facts above.

But this is what liberals do when their policies and rants are shown to be bullshit. They lie! Facts are facts. You can lie all you want but since they are facts, anyone with a minute or 2 of time can easily see that you just make shit up.

California is leading itself into bankruptcy, all the while guided by ignorant liberals such as yourself, who somehow think getting more expensive energy from solar farms will cure the ills in this state.

Wow. No wonder this state sucks so much. Facts mean nothing to liberals.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I remember reading an article that estimated Davis' spending vs Arnold's actual. Basically, Arnold made your economy worse. With the national housing bust, problems may be too severe for Brown to fix. If business doesn't pick up the slack, government will have to fill the void.

Have a nice 4th.

 

[grapeman]

read up on Sun Edison

http://www.sunedison.com/

so if i believe you GrapeMan then this Private for-profit company could not sustain a pos ROI.

this is done using existing silicon pv panels.



EDIT:

GM, you are a miserable fuck, huh? your posts are so hostile and if you hate cali so bad MOVE.

you rattle about subsidizes for pv and such but what about the ones for oil?

You show some companies website as proof that solar is a profitable investment?

What an ignorant thing to do. Have you done any research as to how much business this company does with governments? Governments that are subsidizing this company by PAYING them to install solar panels.

Of course not. This company may be profitable (maybe not), but only at the EXPENSE of taxpayers who are overpaying them to install solar panels as compared to other sources of energy. Typical socialist ignorance. You have no idea where governments get their revenues do you?

And you thought you were smart didn't you?
LOL

P.S. Oh, the liberal bullshit that is "oil subsidies". I thought we covered that back in our 101 class. Catch up will you. You are giving liberals a bad name. Oil subsidies don't exist as you think they do junior.
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/05/whats-an-oil-subsidy

 

[grapeman]

Just to be clear here, Grapeman. You are talking of some old panels. The technology in that department has nothing but improved for the past 2 years. Otherwise why is it china produces them so Heavily?

Because idiots like you think it's cool to buy them even though there are cheaper energy sources. The capitalist Chinese tend to do that. You know, figure out what idealist westerners want then produce that product cheaper then the idealist westerners can. We praise that economic model when the Chinese do it but condemn it when it comes to energy.

And there ladies and gentlemen is exactly why my kids went to private school. They were not influenced by the lie that "polar bear population is decreasing so I need to use the most expensive energy I can" bullshit that you learned from the teacher's union in public school.

 

[grapeman]

I remember reading an article that estimated Davis' spending vs Arnold's actual. Basically, Arnold made your economy worse. With the national housing bust, problems may be too severe for Brown to fix. If business doesn't pick up the slack, government will have to fill the void.

Have a nice 4th.

Why would you think I liked arnold? He was/is an idiot that could post here with the best of you.

And when the government in your dream becomes the predominant employer, where will the tax revenue come from to continue their salaries? Or is that too much for you? That's when we become Greece. How's that working for you?

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

If he goes by your standard he'll only have to post conventional - or - solar numbers, just like you only posted businesses leaving Cali... not necessarily net loss. No mention of businesses entering Cali or businesses upstarting in Cali.

Oh yeah, and a blog.

Why have you been so bent lately? Could it be all the responses that don't necessarily agree with your reasoning?

 

[grapeman]

We once had a handle on corporate influence in the form of campaign donation limits, lobbying restrictions and regulation. Commerce was largely regulated for good reason... history. For almost four decades, income disparity was roughly 20:1.

In the early 1970s, we started to bend donation limits and lobbying restrictions. 1980 ushered in significant and substantial deregulation, campaign finance reform and a wave of lobbying never experienced in DC. Despite a two term democratic president, 30 years of deregulation has changed the playing field for the wealthy. Income disparity has exceeded 400:1.

Once we had a handle on the 'teacher's union's" influence. Once upon a time we never had voter fraud which is the business of Acorn. Now the SEIU and the Teacher's Union outspend all others in buying influence in D.C., yet you cry about corporations. You point the finger at corporations while the unions are burning the house down. Such stupidity.

So your fucking point is what? You prefer teachers teaching bullshit (and never getting fired) to non-government jobs?

Brilliant!!! Greece here we come.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Once we had a handle on the 'teacher's union's" influence. Once upon a time we never had voter fraud which is the business of Acorn. Now the SEIU and the Teacher's Union outspends all others in buying influence in D.C.

So your fucking point is what?

My point is, you can call me a liar but you just basically disagree with my posts.

You prefer teachers teaching bullshit (and never getting fired) to non-government jobs?

We need teachers. We need non-government jobs. I disagree with your oversimplifications, not the fact that organized labor has it's pros and cons. But then again, so does the free market.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Why would you think I liked arnold? He was/is an idiot that could post here with the best of you.

And when the government in your dream becomes the predominant employer, where will the tax revenue come from to continue their salaries? Or is that too much for you? That's when we become Greece. How's that working for you?

I'd say your oversimplifications, predictions and remedies leave me largely unaffected. Since this is a future of energy thread, what do you say you and I merge back into the subject?

An earlier post mentioned hydrogen technology for batteries. Lithium is improving as well. The Leaf gets ~100 miles per charge. The Volt will go ~40 before kicking to gas. We can drive back and forth to work and use less gas.

Hanging onto the last vestige of carbon just prolongs the pain of moving to alternatives. I bet if you saw black rot on your grape vines you wouldn't prolong remedies.

 

[Guest 88950]

You show some companies website as proof that solar is a profitable investment?

What an ignorant thing to do. Have you done any research as to how much business this company does with governments? Governments that are subsidizing this company by PAYING them to install solar panels.

Of course not. This company may be profitable (maybe not), but only at the EXPENSE of taxpayers who are overpaying them to install solar panels as compared to other sources of energy. Typical socialist ignorance. You have no idea where governments get their revenues do you?

And you thought you were smart didn't you?
LOL

P.S. Oh, the liberal bullshit that is "oil subsidies". I thought we covered that back in our 101 class. Catch up will you. You are giving liberals a bad name. Oil subsidies don't exist as you think they do junior.
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/05/whats-an-oil-subsidy

you make a lot of assumptions.

Sun Edison has a profitable business model that allows their customers to enter into a contract for service in which the customer gets all the benefits of PV panels w/o the up-front cost and maintenance.

the most important benefit SE offers its clients is a stable energy per kw price, something that can be counted on when projecting future revenues. a large business doesnt have this same luxury when purchasing electricity from the local electric company.

• Anheuser-Busch
• Kohl's
• Staples
• Whole Foods

sorry "all knowing GrapeMan" i wasnt aware the above companies were govt organizations.



im still trying to figure out how a cannabis grower can be so miserable. you must have been royally fucked by the man or your real life is so fubar'd and unraveling that you cant help but be close minded.