WTF is w/feminized genetics,

[bombadil.360]

The Y chromosome provides the genetic map of a mated pair with what it needs to produce male progeny. Without the Y chromosome to use in the recombination of genes, all slots are filled with X chromosomes and nothing is available to produce males. So, basically the Y chromosome makes boys.

The importance of the intersex gene is evident in light of the fact that when a female/female breeding is done, there is no Y chromosome involved at all, so there is no way a male can exist.
But we see fully developed stamen being produced by females that have no Y chromosome...and how can that be? The intersex genes and their triggers. Without them existing in the genetic map somewhere, there is no chance of seeing even forced stamen.
Now that opens another can o' worms concerning if a true female can be forced to produce stamen or not...of which I am in the camp that says a truly dioecious female cannot be forced to produce stamen, no matter the amount or type of stress.
Some have speculated that trully dioecious of the species does not exist.

hoosier, if what you say is so, then it follows that one can't simply produce female seeds without the aid of intersex genes.

hence why there seems to be a high occurrence of hermaphrodite expression in feminized seeds.

harking back to what Sam the Skunkman said, when hermies appear, it follows that they appeared because either ancestor carried intersex genes, and if fem seeds rely on such intersex genes in order to be able to f/f, it follows that fem seeds will always carry that intersex gene waiting to pop-up in the offspring.

also, how much do we really know about the whole genetic make-up of that Y chromosome? besides Sexual Determination, could it also carry information regarding Disease Resistance, Cannabinoid Diversity, Odor/Flavor in female Resin, etc... etc... etc... ?

if we are discounting the Y chromosome simple on the basis of its potential influence on Sex Determination alone, without considering other major important factors, then we are indeed missing essential genetic information.

 

[darwinsbulldog]

hoosier, if what you say is so, then it follows that one can't simply produce female seeds without the aid of intersex genes.

hence why there seems to be a high occurrence of hermaphrodite expression in feminized seeds.

harking back to what Sam the Skunkman said, when hermies appear, it follows that they appeared because either ancestor carried intersex genes, and if fem seeds rely on such intersex genes in order to be able to f/f, it follows that fem seeds will always carry that intersex gene waiting to pop-up in the offspring.

also, how much do we really know about the whole genetic make-up of that Y chromosome? besides Sexual Determination, could it also carry information regarding Disease Resistance, Cannabinoid Diversity, Odor/Flavor in female Resin, etc... etc... etc... ?

if we are discounting the Y chromosome simple on the basis of its potential influence on Sex Determination alone, without considering other major important factors, then we are indeed missing essential genetic information.

i think though that the intersex gene can carry either male or female genetics, so if you end up with a pure female that were XXxX that you could self or cross pollinate with another XXxX then you'd never get any hermies... too bad they're so rare and very hard to work out if they're XXxX or XXyX as the phenotype is the same. i'm guessing one would have to do a lot of hermie stress testing to make sure none popped up before being more certain that the female in question didn't carry the male form of the intersex gene.

 

[Honkytonk]

please correct me if im wrong

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoautosomal_region

 

[CFP65]

@Honkytonk
sorry but i just dont see it

 

[Honkytonk]

@Honkytonk
sorry but i just dont see it

The function of these pseudoautosomal regions is that they allow the X and Y chromosomes to pair and properly segregate during meiosis in males.

What was it exactly you wanted the PAR to do? 'Lending hormonal traits'?

 

[CFP65]

well the qoute states that traits that before meosis was allocated at the male Y chromosome and belonged here can end up in a female X chromosome after the reshuffeling of genes at meosis rigth?
then why should the the ability to surpress ethylene levels (and make stamen) not migrate from Y to X as this ethylene surpression is clearly a male Y linked trait?



you posted a link and
i will post another link, that could maby give some input to
http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/content/full/94/2/141

 

[freefields]

hoosier, if what you say is so, then it follows that one can't simply produce female seeds without the aid of intersex genes.

As Tom said, the mechanism behind sexual expression in cannabis isn't fully known or understood yet, so we don't even know if there are 'intersex genes'.

hence why there seems to be a high occurrence of hermaphrodite expression in feminized seeds.

Have you got any evidence or statistics to backup this claim? Females that grow male flowers are common in regular seeds, yet no-one seems to notice when people report them, yet every time someone finds one from femmed seeds, people notice and use it as an argument against femmed seeds. Maybe a proper study to gather valid statistics is in order? Then again, I doubt it would be very insightful as most of the people making and selling fem seeds these days are just out to make quick, easy profits and their selections and work is not a valid basis for any study. I have grown 6 packs of fem seeds and only found male flowers on two plants, both of them from the same pack and that was the only pack from one of these fly-by-night turn a quick profit Spanish companies, the other packs were all from reputable breeders. Two females with male flowers out of about 30 females is not unusual.

harking back to what Sam the Skunkman said, when hermies appear, it follows that they appeared because either ancestor carried intersex genes, and if fem seeds rely on such intersex genes in order to be able to f/f, it follows that fem seeds will always carry that intersex gene waiting to pop-up in the offspring.

Without being able to fully understand the mechanism behind sexual expression in cannabis such a statement is not fully valid. Is there such a thing as 'intersex genes' or do all cannabis plants carry the genes for both male and female flower production and those genes are controlled by hormones?

Just because a lot of the fem seeds being sold today are garbage, it doesn't point to a problem with the selfing of females, it points to bad selection by the 'breeders'.

 

[englishrick]

As Tom said, the mechanism behind sexual expression in cannabis isn't fully known or understood yet, so we don't even know if there are 'intersex genes'.

hermaphrodite`s do exist

im sure tom understands the evolution of sex
chromosomes, what i think tom did say is that we dont understand the "autosomonal regions"

hoos made apost in the begiining of this thread showing the difference between hermaphrodite and dioecious plants


only a small number of plant species have made the transition from intersexed species to dioecious species

sex chromozones develope

 

[Honkytonk]

well the qoute states that traits that before meosis was allocated at the male Y chromosome and belonged here can end up in a female X chromosome after the reshuffeling of genes at meosis rigth?
then why should the the ability to surpress ethylene levels (and make stamen) not migrate from Y to X as this ethylene surpression is clearly a male Y linked trait?

You assume that genes responsible for sexual expression are located in the PAR. They're not. Their function is, as stated before, to allow the X and Y chromosomes to pair and properly segregate during meiosis in males.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

One thing, that we know for sure is, that there is lots we don't know.

One thing we do know is that the lab can tell what chromosomes exist at the 8th paired set in cannabis sativaL. Each and every individual plant will have either XX or XY at that 8th paired strand. One is female the other male. This is fact. Nothing can change it...besides that which madeth.

Now, we also know that plants that do have two XX's at the 8th pair of chromosomes can and will show male stamen. Be it genes or whatever the receptors are, the ability to show male parts when no male genetic material exists has to be the intersex trait.

And we know that many "traits" are controlled and/or triggered by the following:

Plant Hormones and Growth Regulators

Plant hormones (phytohormones) are physiological intercellular messengers that are needed to control the complete plant lifecycle, including germination, rooting, growth, flowering, fruit ripening, foliage and death. In addition, plant hormones are secreted in response to environmental factors such as abundance of nutrients, drought conditions, light, temperature, chemical or physical stress. Hence, levels of hormones will change over the lifespan of a plant and are dependent upon season and environment.
The term “plant growth factor” is usually employed for plant hormones or substances of similar effect that are administered to plants. Growth factors are widely used in industrialized agriculture to improve productivity. The application of growth factors allows synchronization of plant development to occur. For instance, ripening tomatoes can be controlled by setting desired atmospheric ethylene levels. Using this method, fruits that are separated from their parent plant will still respond to growth factors; allowing commercial plants to be ripened in storage during and after transportation. This way the process of harvesting can be run much more efficiently. Other applications include rooting of seedlings or the suppression of rooting with the simultaneous promotion of cell division as required by plant cell cultures. Just like with animal hormones, plant growth factors come in a wide variety, producing different and often antagonistic effects. In short, the right combination of hormones is vital to achieve the desired behavioral characteristics of cells and the productive development of plants as a whole.

Traditionally five major classes of plant hormones are listed: auxins, cytokinins, gibberellins, abscisic acid and ethylene. However as research progresses, more active molecules are being found and new families of regulators are emerging; one example being polyamines such as putrescine or spermidine.
Note that this classification is based partially on the chemical structure and partially on the commonalities of plant physiological effects that certain substances exhibit. Members of one class may not relate from a structural point of view to another. Auxins for instance include not only many indole 3-carboxylic acid derivatives but numerous phenylacetic acids as well. Most cytokinins (such as zeatins) are derivatives from adenine but still differ widely in their chemical structure. Hence, the mechanism driving action may be different in each case and likewise each specific activity will differ also. This is demonstrated by the range of optimal concentrations required for different factors which spans many decimals (0.001 – 100 mg/L).

Auxins
Auxin is the active ingredient in most rooting mixtures. These products help the vegetative propagation of plants. On a cellular level auxins influence cell elongation, cell division and the formation of adventitious roots. Some auxins are active at extremely low concentrations. Typical auxin concentration range from 0.01 to 10 mg/L.

Cytokinins
Cytokinins promote cell division, stimulate shoot proliferation, activate gene expression and metabolic activity in general. At the same time, cytokinins inhibit root formation. This makes cytokinins useful in culturing plant cell tissue where strong growth without root formation is desirable. Natural cytokinin hormone levels are high during maximum growth periods of mature plants. In addition, cytokinins slow the aging process in plants. Concentrations of cytokinin used for horticulture vary between 0.1 to 10 mg/L

Gibberellins
Gibberellins are derivatives of gibberellic acid. They are natural plant hormones and promote flowering, stem elongation and break dormancy of seeds. There are about 100 different gibberellins, but gibberellic acid (GA3) is the most commonly used form. Gibberellins are fundamental to plant development especially with respect to the growth of stems. Low levels of gibberellins will prevent plants from reaching their natural height. Gibberellin synthesis inhibitors are extensively used in grain production to keep stems artificially short: shorter and thicker stems provide better support and resist weather conditions better too.
Gibberellins are particularly effective at breaking seed dormancy and at speeding up germination. Seeds that are difficult to germinate are frequently treated with gibberillic acid solutions.

Abscisic Acid
Abscisic acid (ABA) is a plant growth inhibitor and an antagonist of gibberellins: it induces dormancy, prevents seeds from germinating and causes abscission of leaves, fruits, and flowers. High concentrations of abscisic acid can be induced by environmental stress such as drought. Elevated levels of abscisic acid will eventually induce dormancy, when all non-essential processes are shut down and only the essential metabolism is maintained in guard cells.

Ethylene
Ethylene is unique in that it is found only in gaseous form. It induces ripening, causes leaves to abscess and promotes senescence. Plants often increase ethylene production in response to stress and before death. Ethylene concentrations fluctuate with the seasons while playing a role in inducing foliage and ripening of fruit.
top

Polyamines
Polyamines are unique as they are effective (and are applied) in relatively high concentrations. Typical concentrations range from 5 to 500 mg/L. Polyamines influence flowering and promote plant regeneration

 

[englishrick]

^^^^this is why i love you hooz,,,,,,fantastic post!!

Epigenetic responce is very funny ,,,,,,,,,,,,target enviroments have an amazing effect

 

[CFP65]

sorry but where did i make the assumption that the genes for sexual expression (on a male) and subsequently inherrited in a female is located IN the PAR.

i did not (you did)

i did the assumption to say that the ethylene surpressing trait could be located AT the Y chromosome, and that this could be inherited to the X via the allowed reshuffeling of genes between Y and X.
that takes place in meosis and that this allowance is due to a Pseudoautosomal region (PAR) on the sex chromosomes


that is the PAR allows the inter X-Y-reshuffeling but it does not contain the information that gets reshuffeled
it just gives the pedestrians the green ligth to cross the road so to speak

if you can give me a better place than Y to locate
the ethylene surpressing trait then please do

 

[Honkytonk]

You guys filled 45 pages and that hormone blurb of plant biology 101 is news to you?
This is very sad and I mean that in the least offensive way possible.

 

[Honkytonk]

sorry but where did i make the assumption that the genes for sexual expression (on a male) and subsequently inherrited in a female is located IN the PAR.

i did not (you did)

i did the assumption to say that the ethylene surpressing trait could be located AT the Y chromosome, and that this could be inherited to the X via the allowed reshuffeling of genes between Y and X.
that takes place in meosis and that this allowance is due to a Pseudoautosomal region (PAR) on the sex chromosomes


that is the PAR allows the inter X-Y-reshuffeling but it does not contain the information that gets reshuffeled
it just gives the pedestrians the green ligth to cross the road so to speak

if you can give me a better place than Y to locate
the ethylene surpressing trait then please do

You're still confused about what happens between the PAR of Y and X and the rest of those chromosomes. I would have to draw you a diagram to explain that but I kinda tend to move on with my life instead. Maybe someone else here with basic understanding of genetics will sacrifice a portion of his life to do that diagram. But then again you could google for a thing like that and find out by yourself...

 

[freefields]

You guys filled 45 pages and that hormone blurb of plant biology 101 is news to you?
This is very sad and I mean that in the least offensive way possible.

It's not new to me, but I've never studied plant biology in any depth.

My degree is in electronics and I have zero schooling in biology, it wasn't on the curriculum when I went to school.

I'm not interested in any plants other than cannabis, the problem with teaching yourself plant biology is where to start if you have no background in biology of any kind and are only interested in one plant species?

 

[darwinsbulldog]

Just because a lot of the fem seeds being sold today are garbage, it doesn't point to a problem with the selfing of females, it points to bad selection by the 'breeders'.

well said freefields!

 

[darwinsbulldog]

I'm not interested in any plants other than cannabis, the problem with teaching yourself plant biology is where to start if you have no background in biology of any kind and are only interested in one plant species?

lol well you're in the perfect place for where to start! anytime i run into something i don't know about cannabis (biology or not) i just unleash on google and/or threads here to answer my questions. i have a background in biology and still don't understand a lot about plant biology, but this page and many on google have huge amounts of clear and easy to understand info on any plant biology topic you could imagine!

 

[freefields]

Good point Darwin, the problem with info here on the forums is people have to be anonymous so it's very hard to know who to listen to.

I have ruined a lot of plants through following bogus advice over the years so now I'm very sceptical. This thread is a great example of knowing who to listen to being very problematic.

The other problem I have is knowing what questions to ask to find the answers I need. For example, I doubt googling 'sexual expression in cannabis sativa' will find me a simple, easy to understand answer!

 

[Raco]

hermaphrodite`s do exist

im sure tom understands the evolution of sex
chromosomes, what i think tom did say is that we dont understand the "autosomonal regions"

hoos made apost in the begiining of this thread showing the difference between hermaphrodite and dioecious plants


only a small number of plant species have made the transition from intersexed species to dioecious species

sex chromozones develope

 

[Tom Hill]

Cannabis does not have hermaphrodite plants - King Ralph did that to me once Raco - That is an oddity on a monoecious individual from within a subdioecious population

(Photo by KingRalph)