WTF is w/feminized genetics,

[darwinsbulldog]

(Hempy) "It also says losing sex puts plants at a long-term disadvantage. Dont that mean males role tom."

Again, no. It means that sexual reproduction may be advantageous to asexual (vegative) reproduction. Like I said before, "fem seed" do fall in the category of sexual reproduction.

yeah tom's definitely right here. the reason it's said that losing sex puts plants at a long-term disadvantage is because if plants decide to reproduce through asexual reproduction, say you have two lines, one reproducing with sexual repro, the other with asexual repro. the sexual line (or population) will interbreed through sex and chromosomes will be mixed up between organisms, when the environment changes not all offspring will survive, some will be more advantaged through their genotype than others and thus have increased survivability and the change in environment won't affect them as much, some in the population won't be able to handle it at all and will die out straight away. this is just genetic variation. though when you have a line of individuals that switches to asexual reproduction (vegetative cloning), you effectively create a whole heap of single individual populations in that there's no longer any mixing of the genes in the original pool through sex, each organism by cloning itself has genetically separated itself from all others. this can be a great strategy when one exists in a homogenous environment (one that is constant without change), if so they're able to reproduce fast and thrive under the conditions (where sexual repro would produce some individuals that wouldn't survive as well as others). the problem is that all environments don't stay homogenous forever and if you have one entire area of plants all genetically identical to each other because of asexual reproduction and a single thing in the environment changes that affects the survivability of one individual, if affects every individual the same way... also asexual reproduction allows genetic mutations to crop up and not are unable to be selectively removed via recombination / sexual repro from the gene pool. so it's much easier to be wiped out completely. it's like that saying "better to not have all your eggs in the one basket".

sorry if i've explained it in a confusing way. but yeah hempy you're right in thinking that asexual reproduction over time can be bad, but it's not the male that's important, it's the act of sexual reproduction, the shuffling of genes through whatever process XX x XX or XX x XY etc that occurs. as long as that shuffling happens the offspring have much better genetic variation. the thing we were learning about this semester is that quite often you'll find that asexual animals / plant species will actually also have sexual populations or sexual reproduction as a life history in their recent past. what i'm saying is that often populations repro through sex as the normal, but when good environments permit many plants and animals can switch to asexual reproduction, and when times get tough again they can switch back. i'll search for an example or two and edit this msg when i find them.

EDIT: good examples - look under Reproduction on wikipedia

Asexual vs. sexual reproduction

"Organisms that reproduce through asexual reproduction tend to grow in number exponentially. However, because they rely on mutation for variations in their DNA, all members of the species have similar vulnerabilities. Organisms that reproduce sexually yield a smaller number of offspring, but the large amount of variation in their genes makes them less susceptible to disease.

Many organisms can reproduce sexually as well as asexually. Aphids, slime molds, sea anemones, some species of starfish (by fragmentation), and many plants are examples. When environmental factors are favorable, asexual reproduction is employed to exploit suitable conditions for survival such as an abundant food supply, adequate shelter, favorable climate, disease, optimum pH or a proper mix of other lifestyle requirements. Populations of these organisms increase exponentially via asexual reproductive strategies to take full advantage of the rich supply resources.

When food sources have been depleted, the climate becomes hostile, or individual survival is jeopardized by some other adverse change in living conditions, these organisms switch to sexual forms of reproduction. Sexual reproduction ensures a mixing of the gene pool of the species. The variations found in offspring of sexual reproduction allow some individuals to be better suited for survival and provide a mechanism for selective adaptation to occur. In addition, sexual reproduction usually results in the formation of a life stage that is able to endure the conditions that threaten the offspring of an asexual parent. Thus, seeds, spores, eggs, pupae, cysts or other "over-wintering" stages of sexual reproduction ensure the survival during unfavorable times and the organism can "wait out" adverse situations until a swing back to suitability occurs."

i also found a good page about the evolution of sexual reproduction, suss it out if you're interested. some other amazing reproductive mechanisms include the varying forms of parthenogenesis, which has always fascinated me! the komodo dragon in the london zoo i believe was found to be parthenogenetic recently after it started producing all female offspring without having ever come in contact with another male at the zoo!

anyway hope that helps anyone interested in this stuff, if you need me to explain better or more clearly just ask. and if i've slipped up in there somewhere let me know.

darwin

 

[stagger lee]

Robert Connell Clarke Marijuana Botany

There are 2 basic theories about how sex is determined in cannabis. The epigamic(nongenetic) and the alternative theory explained by the sexual inheritance (genetic).

It seems that we must incorporate both theories to come to a workable understanding of sexual expression in cannabis.


The most logical accommodation is to consider the initial sexual charactoristics of cannabis(inherited genetics). Although the intial sexual form is determined the final production of floral organs(sexual outcome) is influenced by other genes and by environmental conditions which may override the expression of the inherited sexual type. The effect of the environment can change the chemical makeup of the plant.

You have Kopite, Hyb, Sam Skunkman, Chimera, Rob Clarke, CharlesX, etc, etc, etc, many well respected folk have used this tool and/or gone on record as to its worth.

You will never meet a group of guys who care more about cannabis than these folks. They care enough to seek out knowledge of it offline, many have given much of their lives to it - which is much more than most of you can say. They disagree often but on this matter they have always been in accord with each other.

Lol, but you guys know better, right? Amusing.

Hempy,
Stagger, and so what? If you only came in here saying that, then you and I and many others would have no problem. However, you took all that to mean something it didn't. You put two and two together and came up with like 599.

Not sure wtf you mean by this but would appreciate letting me know what and when. I started thread and have stuck to the topics mentioned!

 

[Dalaihempy]

(Hempy) "Well don't sexual species use a male to reproduce."


No, they use "male parts" (pollen), and "female parts" (egg), to create seed. "Male parts" do not have to come solely from a "male" to fit the definition of sexual reproduction.

Tom i thort asexual reproduction was when a plant used male parts to fertilize its self and sexual reproduction was when a male is used to fertilize a female of the same species.



(Hempy) "It also says losing sex puts plants at a long-term disadvantage. Dont that mean males role tom."

Again, no. It means that sexual reproduction may be advantageous to asexual (vegative) reproduction. Like I said before, "fem seed" do fall in the category of sexual reproduction.[/QUOTE]


Tom i am only going by what i read ex.....An asexual population tends to be genetically static. Mutant alleles appear but remain forever associated with the particular alleles present in the rest of that genome. Even a beneficial mutation will be doomed to extinction if trapped along with genes that reduce the fitness of that population.

But with the genetic recombination provided by sex, new alleles can be shuffled into different combinations with all the other alleles available to the genome of that species. A beneficial mutation that first appears alongside harmful alleles can, with recombination, soon find itself in more fit genomes that will enable it to spread through a sexual population.


As we have seen (above), populations without sex are genetically static. They may be well-adapted to a given environment, but will be handicapped in evolving in response to changes in the environment. One of the most potent environmental forces acting on a species environment is its parasites.

The speed with which parasites like bacteria and viruses can change their virulence may provide the strongest need for their hosts to have the ability to make new gene combinations. So sex may be virtually universal because of the never-ending need to keep up with changes in parasites.

(Hempy) "Tom i know what corn is mate but what i am pointing out here is the importance proteins that have become part of the immune system of plants, insects and other animals except mammals. that scientists from Regensburg discovered that those proteins also play a role in the "sex life" during the fertilization process of plants that would mean a male to correct."

Again, no, not correct. "Sex life" refers to sexual reproduction - "female parts" x "male parts" = "seed". There are MANY plants that are sexually reproduced that are not M/F dioecious Hempy, like the example in the very article that you are quoting. -T

Tom i look things in simple forms mate and not try to over complicate things as thearys and opinions change in science and do all the time just when they think they know it all they soon find out they don't.

Nature always has a reason for how species evolve so there is a reason why cannabis has evolved with sexual reproduction using males yes they can also reproduce asexually as in hermaphrodites but all cannabis species has both male and female.

 

[darwinsbulldog]

Tom i thort asexual reproduction was when a plant used male parts to fertilize its self and sexual reproduction was when a male is used to fertilize a female of the same species.



(Hempy) "It also says losing sex puts plants at a long-term disadvantage. Dont that mean males role tom."

Again, no. It means that sexual reproduction may be advantageous to asexual (vegative) reproduction. Like I said before, "fem seed" do fall in the category of sexual reproduction.

Tom i am only going by what i read ex.....An asexual population tends to be genetically static. Mutant alleles appear but remain forever associated with the particular alleles present in the rest of that genome. Even a beneficial mutation will be doomed to extinction if trapped along with genes that reduce the fitness of that population.

But with the genetic recombination provided by sex, new alleles can be shuffled into different combinations with all the other alleles available to the genome of that species. A beneficial mutation that first appears alongside harmful alleles can, with recombination, soon find itself in more fit genomes that will enable it to spread through a sexual population.


As we have seen (above), populations without sex are genetically static. They may be well-adapted to a given environment, but will be handicapped in evolving in response to changes in the environment. One of the most potent environmental forces acting on a species environment is its parasites.

The speed with which parasites like bacteria and viruses can change their virulence may provide the strongest need for their hosts to have the ability to make new gene combinations. So sex may be virtually universal because of the never-ending need to keep up with changes in parasites.






Tom i look things in simple forms mate and not try to over complicate things as thearys and opinions change in science and do all the time just when they think they know it all they soon find out they don't.

Nature always has a reason for how species evolve so there is a reason why cannabis has evolved with sexual reproduction using males yes they can also reproduce asexually as in hermaphrodites but all cannabis species has both male and female.[/QUOTE]







hey hempy.

asexual reproduction = vegetative cloning, it's reproduction that doesn't include meiosis or gametes, which is a result of pollination. offspring get 100% of their genes from a single parent, and they aren't shuffled up through recombination

sexual reproduction = reproduction involving the use of male and female parts, meiosis and gamete formation, so the genes are shuffled up through recombination whether from 2 parents or 1 parent. i'd say the defining feature of sexual reproduction is the gamete formation / recombination.

you're definitely right mate about asexual reproduction being a poorer form of reproduction in the long run, when exposed to changing environments, compared to sexual reproduction. sexual repro allows the purging of bad alleles, recessive mutant alleles that crop up etc, without this they remain in the population which may then subsequently suffer.

like that part at the end of your comment about keeping up with changing virulence in bacteria and viruses, that's it, if an asexual group, all exactly the same genetics wise are exposed to a virus which they are susceptible to, there's no room for them to build a tolerance and evolve to deal with it and survive as there's no sexual reproduction with recombination and genetic variation. so all individuals are likely to die if all exactly the same. without recombination asexual lines are basically unable to evolve, they stay stagnant and thus eventually something will come along and wipe them out without changing back to or between sexual reproduction.

"Nature always has a reason for how species evolve so there is a reason why cannabis has evolved with sexual reproduction using males yes they can also reproduce asexually as in hermaphrodites but all cannabis species has both male and female."

there's not really a specific reason that nature has decided to go with this mechanism over any others, it's just that this mechanism was available and worked therefore it wasn't selected against, changed or removed. there are plenty of "mistakes" (for want of a better word) in nature where mechanisms, organs, behaviours, etc exist in organisms not because they have a use, but merely because overall they're not disadvantageous and therefore aren't selected against / removed from the gene pool. an example of this is our appendix, we don't use it anymore, but it's there because it's not a threat to our survival. though people often can die from appendicitis, if this became much more common then selection would act and we would evolve into a form without it (as any with it would've had a reduced survivability). the same goes for hermaphroditism in these plants which is said to not be natural, it's not here for a "reason" per se, but it is here and occurs often enough to not be of any real detriment to the species' genetic health (may even be beneficial on rare occasions in the wild), thus having no reason to be removed from the species gene pool and so it stays.

darwin

 

[Dalaihempy]

darwinsbulldog hiya mate i don't know a great deal about cannabis on a genetic level i am first to admit it but i do know nature has a reason for doing what ever she does in all living things and you know i have seen cannabis produce a single seed with no evidence of male i have seen a true female in late flower from the main steam grow out a new branch with a single male flower that would always grow and produces seedless flowers over and over each grow i really believe that hermaphrodite tendency to show up in female seeds is due to the lack of a male and as a result they will become Asexual and unable to change or adapt to changes and will produce both male and female flowers the more they evolve which explanes to me why i was told by a person who in fact did experiment with female seeds years ago the first few generations did not show hermaphrodites yet after a few generations did and the more inbreed they become meaning generations later they were taken the worse it got.

I think people miss read me not hard with my spelling lol but if female seeds had a terminator triga meaning there made sterile unable to be used in breeding and are made for one grow a flower cycle which growers could clone the plant so they could use it only for flower production i don't think any person would have a problem with female seeds but most do as most know that changing a natural evaluational process nature created has to leed to problems sooner or later.

 

[Tom Hill]

jeeze man (Hempy)"Tom i thort asexual reproduction was when a plant used male parts to fertilize its self and sexual reproduction was when a male is used to fertilize a female of the same species."

-Yeah I know what you thought but you were wrong, and you still are because you go on to say..

(regarding cannabis plants) (Hempy) "they can also reproduce asexually as in hermaphrodites"

and (Hempy)"i really believe that hermaphrodite tendency to show up in female seeds is due to the lack of a male and as a result they will become Asexual and unable to change or adapt to changes"

-^^ that is not correct. Are you really this thick man? It wasn't correct the first, second, third, or fourth time. Wanna try for a fifth, lol? What you are describing is NOT asexual reproduction!!

DB,

Trust me when I say that you have to be much more blunt and to the point with this guy than that, or he will just go on thinking he is right. And probably will anyway.

Stagger,

What I meant is that you came in here saying things like -

(Stagger)"Feminized seeds are more likely to herm" (than M/F seeds)

(Stagger)"At least with standard seeds after pulling males its "all good" BUT with feminized(genetics) seeds, the grower needs to always be on the "lookout" for herms, even after finding a female keeper."

- etc, all crap, then you seemed to try to back it up by quoting Rob Clarke? Horse shit, that's wtf I mean. Rob Clarke developed lines for GW Pharmaceuticals via, yep, selfing, forced reversals. So it is the ultimate irony if you think he's down for this, this ignorant witch hunt. -T

 

[darwinsbulldog]

darwinsbulldog hiya mate i don't know a great deal about cannabis on a genetic level i am first to admit it but i do know nature has a reason for doing what ever she does in all living things and you know i have seen cannabis produce a single seed with no evidence of male i have seen a true female in late flower from the main steam grow out a new branch with a single male flower that would always grow and produces seedless flowers over and over each grow i really believe that hermaphrodite tendency to show up in female seeds is due to the lack of a male and as a result they will become Asexual and unable to change or adapt to changes and will produce both male and female flowers the more they evolve which explanes to me why i was told by a person who in fact did experiment with female seeds years ago the first few generations did not show hermaphrodites yet after a few generations did and the more inbreed they become meaning generations later they were taken the worse it got.

I think people miss read me not hard with my spelling lol but if female seeds had a terminator triga meaning there made sterile unable to be used in breeding and are made for one grow a flower cycle which growers could clone the plant so they could use it only for flower production i don't think any person would have a problem with female seeds but most do as most know that changing a natural evaluational process nature created has to leed to problems sooner or later.

hey mate,

i'm the same mate, i'm still learning a lot about the genetics behind cannabis and will be for a long time i'm sure haha

it is possible for plants to produce seed without fertilization and in cannabis this isn't common, i'd think it was a mutation or maybe there was some other explanation like a small amount of pollen in the air from a long way away... who knows.

"A minority of flowering plants can produce seeds without the fusion of egg and sperm (known as parthenocarpy or agamospermy). This occurs when meiosis in the ovule is interrupted, and a diploid egg cell is produced, which functions as a zygote without fertilization. Familiar examples include citrus, dandelion, hawkweed, buttercup, blackberry/raspberry, and sorbus. Agamospermous species are more common at high elevations and at high latitudes, and nearly all have experienced a doubling of their chromosome number (tetraploidy) in their recent evolutionary history. These species experience evolutionary advantages and disadvantages similar to those of selfers."

- reference

this is similar to parthenogenesis as i spoke about before. who knows if this could arise in cannabis or not... evolution can do amazing things with time.

hempy - "i really believe that hermaphrodite tendency to show up in female seeds is due to the lack of a male and as a result they will become Asexual and unable to change or adapt to changes and will produce both male and female flowers the more they evolve which explanes to me why i was told by a person who in fact did experiment with female seeds years ago the first few generations did not show hermaphrodites yet after a few generations did and the more inbreed they become meaning generations later they were taken the worse it got."

i'm a scientist doing post grad in genetics/evolution, i'm not tooting my own horn here at all just trying to say that as a scientist i have to be skeptical and only "believe" something if i have the evidence to back it up, if i don't i either have to keep searching or not accept it as "true" until more info is found. so i don't think anyone at this point can say hermaphrodites are a direct result of their not being a male, i respect you believe this may be an explanation ( i haven't looked into this at all ) but i can't imagine why that would be the case. male is just a concept, you can get an equivalent mating if you take two FORCED hermaphrodites (so not in their genetics at all) females to pollinate one another. so the offspring are 50% one parent and 50% another parent, with recombination occurring, this is exactly the same, theoretically, as sexual reproduction between a male and a female, it's just between a female with male sex organs and another female with male sex organs. there's no reason why the offspring should be any less healthy, or have any greater tendency towards hermaphroditism.

you're thoughts about males being needed to prevent hermaphrodites in the genetics seems possibly flawed because this would suggest that hermaphroditism is sex linked, directly attributable to the Y chromosome, in which case it's not affecting XX females anyway. so it doesn't matter if you remove the Y chromosome from the equation and using only females to cross pollinate through sexual reproduction. seeing as it's almost always females showing the hermaphroditism (males can to i believe, but we don't really care about that in sinsemilla/cannabis cultivation) it would have to be on the X chromosome if sex linked at all.

also, hermaphroditism isn't asexuality. in many organisms like snails, nematodes and monoecious plants, they still reproduce sexually, as they have both male and female organs (used to produce gametes (1n - 1 set of chromosomes), which meet to form 2n - 2 sets of chromosomes (paired) one from each parent. this is sexual reproduction, asexual can't include the formation of gametes, or the use of male/female sex organs. it is where females give rise to more females/clones without the need of gametes from another individual whether male or female.

the experiment your friend did with female seeds that lead to hermaphroditism could have occurred due to any other number of factors, i don't know how the experiment was laid out etc, but unless he did detailed genetic analysis on the plants to search for the explanation for the hermies then i don't know if one's able to say "femmed seeds definitely caused the increase in hermaphroditism".

hempy - "I think people miss read me not hard with my spelling lol but if female seeds had a terminator triga meaning there made sterile unable to be used in breeding and are made for one grow a flower cycle which growers could clone the plant so they could use it only for flower production i don't think any person would have a problem with female seeds but most do as most know that changing a natural evaluational process nature created has to leed to problems sooner or later."

i'd have to disagree here, the only way i can see us having a problem with female seeds is if breeders inbred the crap out of certain lines without removing bad recessive alleles/mutations and only used females to self themselves (not others), i don't think it would be in a breeders best interest to do either of the aforementioned things so i don't see why a problem would arise, until someone really does a widespread and thorough experiment on this, including genetic analysis, improving our understanding of hermaphroditism and the effects of self fertilizing, we won't really know how bad or maybe good (who knows!) self-pollinated seeds are. i'd have a feeling self-pollinated seeds will be inferior to standard (XX x XY produced seeds) and cross-pollinated (XX x XX produced seeds).

anyway long story short. i think if you use cross-pollinating parents, two females going through sexual reproduction to produce offspring then there shouldn't be any real reason this is more detrimental than XX x XY normal sexual repro. i think one, just like at anytime, would need to select against hermaphrodites, killing them off, and you'd be fine!

 

[darwinsbulldog]

jeeze man (Hempy)"Tom i thort asexual reproduction was when a plant used male parts to fertilize its self and sexual reproduction was when a male is used to fertilize a female of the same species."

-Yeah I know what you thought but you were wrong, and you still are because you go on to say..

(regarding cannabis plants) (Hempy) "they can also reproduce asexually as in hermaphrodites"

and (Hempy)"i really believe that hermaphrodite tendency to show up in female seeds is due to the lack of a male and as a result they will become Asexual and unable to change or adapt to changes"

-^^ that is not correct. Are you really this thick man? It wasn't correct the first, second, third, or fourth time. Wanna try for a fifth, lol? What you are describing is NOT asexual reproduction!!

DB, Trust me when I say that you have to be much more blunt and to the point with this guy than that, or he will just go on thinking he is right. And probably will anyway.

yeah sorry i haven't really read all the previous comments, i think hempy you just need to read what tom and i have both said, and read up on the definitions and think about it for a while and you'll get it. i mean no disrespect at all, it's easy for me to understand and tom obviously, because i've been at uni studying this stuff for the past 5-6 years, tom's done it for i dunno how many decades, so it can be hard to just "understand" in an afternoon etc. but yeah if you read up on it the more you'll understand it.

darwin

 

[Dalaihempy]

jeeze man (Hempy)"Tom i thort asexual reproduction was when a plant used male parts to fertilize its self and sexual reproduction was when a male is used to fertilize a female of the same species."

-Yeah I know what you thought but you were wrong, and you still are because you go on to say..

(regarding cannabis plants) (Hempy) "they can also reproduce asexually as in hermaphrodites"

Well is it seen as Asexual when a species self pollinates its self tom.

and (Hempy)"i really believe that hermaphrodite tendency to show up in female seeds is due to the lack of a male and as a result they will become Asexual and unable to change or adapt to changes"

-^^ that is not correct. Are you really this thick man? It wasn't correct the first, second, third, or fourth time. Wanna try for a fifth, lol? What you are describing is NOT asexual reproduction!!

DB, Trust me when I say that you have to be much more blunt and to the point with this guy than that, or he will just go on thinking he is right. And probably will anyway.

Tom lets be blunt here man i don't have all the answers or do you the fact that cannabis has a sexual reproduction that uses a male and female plant and can also self pollinate its self under extream stress coursing hermaphrodite sexuality is fact right.

What is the argument in this post tom ?.

People are for female seeds and the other camp is not for female seeds.

People for them say there a natural process and don't cause hermaphrodites or have males showing up well they do and have.

The fact that a female plant is turned to a male using chemicals or even naturally found hormones is still an unnatural act that is not found in nature in this species lets be honest here is it were in nature does a cannabis plant spray its self and change from a female to a male.

How can any one here tell me that changing the sex of a living thing that has evolved for possibly millions of years as a sexual evolving species can be a good thing for its long term survival nature would not create a female or a male in a species if there was not a good reason for it and yet some here think that ha we don't need males in cannabis lets just turn a female to a male self pollinate its self and improve the species and we have it right yet nature dose not.

Great way to improve a population send it to its doom.



darwinsbulldog hi mate From what i have been told cannabis can produce a single seed and even produces pollen in late flower due to stress resulting in a hormone being produced from stress of not being pollinated that results in her self making pollen and self pollinating now is it a good thing for the long term evaluation process of the species no cannabis evolved to produce flowers that are meant to be pollinated by a male by us removing the males to achieve seedless flowers did we cause this or do we cause asexual expression to raise up in the species basically triggering a preservation triga .

 

[Dalaihempy]

Yep i am reading a lot and doing a lot of research on this but the little research on fem cannabis is done by growers ( breeders) and not all positive ether.

I have spoken to a person with botany and genetic back ground about the fem seed topic who do you think told me about the early testing and evaluation of female cannabis seeds and that the first generation was fine then the more it was breed the more the line would express hermaphrodites.

Look guys we cant play mother nature and expect it to not bite us on the ass .

Here this article was posted in 1998 so way before the fem seeds hit the market.


An Interview with Mr XX:

Female seed

Lately there has been a lot of fuss about 100% female seed.
Quite rightly, because this could be the big change in the world
of the growers. As you know, now it is possible to fill, without
(illegal) cuttings, the gardens with female plants, which
moreover as a seedling bring in more than the cuttings.
Highlife was able to be the first to publish pictures of this
miracle of technique and manipulation. But what is even more
interesting: we have an interview with the improver of these
plants, who will lift the veil and share with us the techniques
and materials who until now where only known by a handful of
people. This person is a devoted lover and has no need at all to
reverse his knowledge into stone-hard currencies. He is a man
with a vision and in his story is a message, as well for the
improvers of seed as for every blower in Holland. Because of
the discretion, we call the super freak ‘Mister XX’, what, in
view of the matter is a very appropriate name.



Highlife: ‘Dear XX, could you tell us what has driven you all
those years? Because it is such a complicated matter, it has cost
you lots of time and you encountered a lot of set-backs.’

Mister XX: ‘Indeed I was already experimenting for years, before
I got some results. But I am a kind of person who digs in the heels
of matters that interest me, certainly when the rest of the world
also has no solution for it. By all set-backs I suffered on the road,
the desire to succeed is getting stronger. The only disadvantage of
all those years of experimenting was, that it was nearly not
smokable. Belief me, this matter is for people who want to grow
their own smoke not recommendable. But luckily I got that phase
behind me.

Why did you work all those years at producing female seed, and
what will you do with it now you ‘cracked’ that formula?

My goal was to make of really potent XX plants minimal a natural
healthy quantity of female seed. When I, after ‘eternal’
experimenting, was ready, I began to cultivate this seed, to see if
it, after a while would decline. Then I discovered that the material
where I work with, was also useful to bloom more fully, in a
shorter period then we are used to. But, we will talk about that
later, because this is not so interesting for me. Certainly not,
because I will wizen up the breadgrower, who mostly use
pesticides and other stuff, just for the money. Because I belief the
chance is very small and because other people in this world where
marketing female seed, I did not want to keep this to the persons
who also where interested in these matters: in other words: I want
to pass that the stuff that I use, is free of poison and work very
well.

You have our complete interest, so tell your story and begin at the
beginning.

To produce XX seed, you need a 100% XX plant. To determine if
a plant really is pure and if this is a XX-plant, can not be too
difficult. To disturb the cycle regularly, by using light to recall
shockeffects, is a good method to commit hermaphrodites. It is
optimal if you, while shocking, give the some more CO2. But,
make sure that you give them in time trace elements. By all these
strange moves they use a lot of extra, especially magnesium, I
noticed. When you finally have one or more pure females, then
they will be the base of the improved species. But, look out,
because there are very liter pure XX plants, how strange this may
sound. Inattentive breeding in the past, with especially Asiatic
plants, have genetically in depth produced much hermaphrodites.
So, when a plant is not pure XX, the pollen can also not be pure
XX. This is very frustrating, because all the work has been for
nothing. But, if you have found a XX-plant, we go look further.
After years of experimenting and seeking, I was three years ago
able to cover the XX plant with it’s own dust. But it did not really
hurry up, because the length of the cycle was very disappointing to
the yield.


Most people would be very happy if they
would come this far, but we understand that
this was only the beginning for you.Yes, this
gave me a kick, but more like: ‘And now we
really get started!’. Now I can also solve
this problem. Today I can manipulate every
XX plant that I choose, as you can see on
the pictures.


You see a plant who is showing on three branches, three different
kind of inflorescences. It is a strange and unusual sight, but very
exiting to me. Because this was for met the way to good and
potent female seed. But also (this appeared later) the way to a 30
to 40% more and full bloom of the ladies, and a shorter
blossom-time of almost a week. With this I demonstrated the
possibility of the plant to treat one ore more branches different.
As you can see, I can take care of full bunches of male flowers in
a XX-flower, who is producing a lot of pollen.
If one ore more full sisters of these plant are in full bloom, put
this manipulated plant between them for fertilization. Now the
fertilization will take place only if the plants has full blooming
tops, and that will give you lots of seed. Only a plant with some
big bunches of male-flowers can fertilize a big room of plants.

This was a nice story but the question stays how to get those male
flowers in that plant. We have waited long enough, now we want to
now what means you use. Go right ahead!

I want to tell you a lot, but not everything. There are different
materials where you can manipulate with. The material I have
chosen for is GIBBERALIC ACID, that is also known as the
German name GIBBERELLINSAURE. But at this moment there
are five different performances of Gibberalic and there is a big
chance that the producer has other compositions. The reason I
have chosen for this, is because I let it tested by Dr. Alink,, a
toxicologist from Wageningen. The result I got in writing n it says
black on white that it is harmless for man or animal. This test is
executed without questions or any opposition, what says that it is
possible for everyone to test materials on harmfulness. So, in
other words, we can work much harmful as we all know. And it
costs: nothing!
Gibberalic Acid is harmful on its own. It is strange that the
material has not been added on the list of pesticides who are not
allowed in nature.

But you can spray Gibberalic on the plants?

No, that would be very easy. First you have to dissolve it. To
dissolve a synthetic acid as Gibberalic is a story at itself. Now I
use Natriumhydroxide, a very aggressive material what is used as a
purgative. Natriumhydroxide solves very easily and it is not
toxicological not dangerous. To find the right proportion is the
next question. Then you find out that the condition of the plant
sometimes asks for a specific proportion, who deviates to far
behind the comma. If you can not weigh to specific, than it is not
going to work out. It is that accurate. The difference in doses are
so small, that making it is more than a precise job. A pharmacist
as a friend will be very useful, but he also can weigh at 0,05
grams. But especially choosing the right moment is the biggest
problem.

If all these things are right, then it is just a matter of spraying, and
ready we are, I mean Mr. XX is.

Yes, that is true. Surely reality is far more complicated but I lifted
a big piece of the veil. I did this because I think that all blowing
people in Holland are entitled to know what is happening. So, here
I give a piece of my experiences in these matters. I hope that the
people who are busy manipulating will test the materials they use
in toxicological values. This is free of charge and the
examinatiors don’t ask annoying questions. For me it is the only
way to inform people in which materials you use, those which are
mentioned on the package. The time that growers and improvers
had to work with poisoned materials such as Colchicine, is really
long gone.

So far the story of an interesting and driven person who, without
any financial meaning wants to share his knowledge and wants to
warn against the dangers of the use of pesticides. After this
interview, we got a handful of seeds to try out. We keep in touch
about this project.

N.B. The Amsterdam cannabisseedcompany ‘Dutch Passion’ is the
only company in the world which will sell female seed. It is not
strange that we questioned them how to use poisoned
spraying-materials. Owner Henk van Dalen says: We also tested
Gibberalic acid. In the market garden it is a common material.
Gibberalic acid is a hormone and stimulates in a very small way
the male bloom and has for the growing of the plant unfortunate
side-effects. We do not use hormones at all, because the plants
are acting strange. The material we use is a simple chemical
material, you can think of a salt solution and is absolutely free of
poisoned materials.

You need a pure female as i says here and sam has sed he has only 1.


Gibberellic Acid was used to make fem seeds sed to be the greatest thing since sliced bread well look.

Plants synthesize an astonishing diversity of isoprenoids, some of which play essential roles in photosynthesis, respiration, and the regulation of growth and development. Two independent pathways for the biosynthesis of isoprenoid precursors coexist within the plant cell: the cytosolic mevalonic acid (MVA) pathway and the plastidial methylerythritol phosphate (MEP) pathway. However, little is known about the effects of plant hormones on the regulation of these pathways. In the present study we investigated the effect of gibberellic acid (GA3) on changes in the amounts of many produced terpenoids and the activity of the key enzymes, 1-deoxy-D-xylulose 5-phosphate synthase (DXS) and 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl coenzyme A reductase (HMGR), in these pathways. Our results showed GA3 caused a decrease in DXS activity in both sexes that it was accompanied by a decrease in chlorophylls, carotenoids and Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) contents and an increase in α-tocopherol content. The treated plants with GA3 showed an increase in HMGR activity. This increase in HMGR activity was followed by accumulation of stigmasterol and β-sitosterol in male and female plants and campestrol in male plants. The pattern of the changes in the amounts of sterols was exactly similar to the changes in the HMGR activity. These data suggest that GA3 can probably influence the MEP and MVA pathways oppositely, with stimulatory and inhibitory effects on the produced primary terpenoids in MVA and DXS pathways, respectively.

 

[Tom Hill]

Shall we start all over again Hempy? Jeeze, you're a broken record mate.

 

[darwinsbulldog]

pollination of any form hempy = sexual reproduction. NOT asexual (vegetative cloning) i had to get my head around it too, i think you're getting stuck up on the fact that only one parent is involved in selfing, but the defining features of sexual reproduction isn't the amount of parents, it's the presence or meiosis and gamete production and then fertilization. where fertilization occurs (forming seeds) = sexual, asexual is where reproduction happens without seeds being formed.

hempy - "People for them say there a natural process and don't cause hermaphrodites or have males showing up well they do and have."

yeah that's it, you gotta remember we haven't genetically engineered this plant or changed anything drastically making it 'unnatural' per se, we're just doing what it already did naturally (hermies) even if it's rare in nature.

hempy "The fact that a female plant is turned to a male using chemicals or even naturally found hormones is still an unnatural act that is not found in nature in this species lets be honest here is it were in nature does a cannabis plant spray its self and change from a female to a male."

it is found in nature though, it happens from stresses... as you said "nature has a reason for doing things" so hermaphroditism is a process that has a use. perhaps it is a result of stress because the plant fears it will die soon and thus wants to replicate itself even if others aren't around, or are but aren't mature enough to reproduce with etc. and the benefit of hermies and self-pollination is that all offspring are 100% the mother, which is in its interest. every organism in the world's goal is to pass on as many of its genes as possible before it dies. 100% is greater than 50%, and in the short term is more beneficial.

hempy "How can any one here tell me that changing the sex of a living thing that has evolved for possibly millions of years as a sexual evolving species can be a good thing for its long term survival nature would not create a female or a male in a species if there was not a good reason for it and yet some here think that ha we don't need males in cannabis lets just turn a female to a male self pollinate its self and improve the species and we have it right yet nature dose not."

dude you just said it yourself there, nature created the plant to do what it does with respect to hermies, therefore it has a reason why it happens and exists. it has evolved for millions of years like you say, to do exactly what it does, this includes the hermaphrodite side of things, if it were really that negative it would've been removed from the gene pool by natural selection a long time ago, it hasn't, it's still here, so it has a use and it clearly isn't bad for the plant at all... natural hermies are bad for breeders / cultivators most of the time, the plant doesn't care and its survival isn't impacted greatly at all either way. it's us who care.

we're not saying that males are bad, or that we shouldn't have them at all like i said originally, it just depends what you're wanting to do with respect to breeding/cultivating. self-pollinated and cross-pollinated seed has its place in breeding and cultivating, as do males and naturally produced seed. we as a community aren't moving towards trying to get rid of males, it's just that a lot of growers want to get as many female seeds for their money as they can because they're not interested in breeding and that's why the market is flooded with femmed seeds currently.


you just have to remember hermaphroditism DOES NOT = ASEXUAL

 

[BENJI]

Alot of good information in this thread i think what people are getting mixed up is, Feminization as a breeding tool and companies who sell ONLY fem seeds i know it's a much bigger picture than that but when we syphon out all the politcs and bullshit we are left with the FACTS and the people who have used these techniques, Tom you have changed my opinion on Feminization as a breeding tool i can now see where you are coming from before this thread i was ignorant to say the least, Thank you for educating inquiring minds..

 

[darwinsbulldog]

Alot of good information in this thread i think what people are getting mixed up is, Feminization as a breeding tool and companies who sell ONLY fem seeds i know it's a much bigger picture than that but when we syphon out all the politcs and bullshit we are left with the FACTS and the people who have used these techniques, Tom you have changed my opinion on Feminization as a breeding tool i can now see where you are coming from before this thread i was ignorant to say the least, Thank you for educating inquiring minds..

yeah i second that, thanks tom for educating me as well!

 

[BENJI]

I think all of the same considerations with selection come into play in both schemes, but the forcing scheme is far faster, easier, and IMO far more dependable. Especially in light of the work required to find paternal stock. New breeders would fair much better, and with much better results, if they selected from potential females to provide for both the maternal as well as the paternal.
If anything at all, the numbers say I am right...and I think many of us realize that this all boils down to numbers.

Great post think im starting to get a grasp on this now..

 

[DocLeaf]

Doc, just a thought...
If a person is going to undertake a breeding project, then I would assume them to be versed in the art of growing the plant. In essence, a new breeder is more than likely going to be (or needs to be) a competent veteran grower. And as such, I would feel comfortable in giving instructions to such a person on how to formulate and utilize sex forcing solutions.

And, it is of my hack opinion that new breeders have a far greater chance of failure when using the regular M/F scheme for the project. And by failure, I mean not being able to accomplish what you want in the end resulting seeds and plants.
It is far more complicated to end up with a high percentage stable line using a M/F scheme as opposed to a F/F scheme. It is even more complicated to explain to a person how to go about the procedure of stabilization of a line using males, than it is using a F/F forcing plan. Not to mention the time and steps saved using a forcing program.
I think all of the same considerations with selection come into play in both schemes, but the forcing scheme is far faster, easier, and IMO far more dependable. Especially in light of the work required to find paternal stock. New breeders would fair much better, and with much better results, if they selected from potential females to provide for both the maternal as well as the paternal.
If anything at all, the numbers say I am right...and I think many of us realize that this all boils down to numbers.

Good post

 

[spearzy]

i think on the book reading thing,experience is what makes you a good grower no one is ever going to read a book and become instantly good everyones grow area has its own + and - points learning to control your enviroment and how to work with your strains can realy only be learned through trial and error experience,half of the stuff ive learned isnt in the books or dvd,s but they are good to get you started on the basics,i bet you can learn more though on forums like these.

 

[darwinsbulldog]

hey noob question, can someone define F/F and M/F for me? i'm not down with the lingo lol

 

[DocLeaf]

hey noob question, can someone define F/F and M/F for me? i'm not down with the lingo lol

F/F = female x female (XX x XX) ,, aka feminized seeds

M/F = female x male (XX x XY) ,, aka regular seeds

..least we think that's what they mean

Hope this helps

 

[CFP65]

No there is definitely an X/Y determination happening. Selfing the homozygous (female) yields females, mostly. Selfing the heterozygous (male) yields the typical Mendelian ratio, mostly. What happens outside of mostly is where you guys are on to something but this too (threshold effects, hormone production, modifying factors etc) must also be under genetic control, because it differs from plant to plant given the same environment - mostly

I don't subscribe to the black and white theory of "either it has "intersex" genes or it doesn't" either.-T

Question: is that mendelian ratio ment as female/male/hermie ratio?