WTF is w/feminized genetics,

[Tom Hill]

You guys need to understand how many times we (Hyb, CharlesX, Hoos, Kopite, etc, etc, etc) have been through this friggen groundhogs day. It gets very frustrating round about the 180th time. Hoosier is always there, and I personally thank him for doing his part in trying to straighten out this fuggin mess. If you guys who may be starting to get it, actually did your part, I think you may find us backing off a bit, that would be great. I know I am very tired of this debate that was settled long ago, but, some here just refuse to stay straight after they've been straightened out. It's like a fucking "who's on first" thingy, makes my head hurt.

PS, thank you Gerrit for your input. The torch gets heavy, doesn't it. -T

 

[DocLeaf]

It means that your comments are absolutely baseless when you say things like "female seeds are ok to grow but don't breed with them" - and you say that a lot. -T

What means,, ? please make yourself clear. There's a "quote" application.

We have bred with feminized seed clones,, to test the waters ,, but we would ALWAYS advise new breeders (and even the old ones) to work with regular/normal seed stocks.. with male plants first.

Whoever sprayed a feminized plant with CS to make more seeds??? Step up first,, it's our understanding you cant,, becuase there's no Y to play with in a XX x XX set up.!!Otherwise what ppl gonna do,, pull a male plant out their *** to make seeds with? This is my point,, yo'll cant make sustainable seed lines from feminized genetics,, because you need male plants to do it with. That's basic.

We've grown plenty feminized seeds from plenty different breeders to base judgement on observation on recent movements,, not hearsay... (like when things in the biz aint doing so good,, whose the doc they'll tell ya to grow see? to prop ya name into some photo frames,, n make yo some p's). Greenhouse fem. lines (pre Kush n Cheese) were OK, so was Magus, so was RQS and others,, while some like Dinafem and Sweet Seeds got a thumbs down these ends,, such is life but,, they dont all grow well for everyone. Pon we learn we grow an all that...

Peace n flowers

 

[mule420]

I'm new to this if you cant tell On my upcoming breeding project I think I'm going to do it many ways... M/F P1 of reg seed, then a P1 fem reg seed hit with CS, then a p1 Feminized seed hit with CS. I will label the three types of pollen, and go from there. I will be using subcool genetics to cross breed for fun and seeds, and I would like to use landrace genetics just to have some seeds from when I was a kid... Some people collect guns and bullets, I collect seeds and bongs, I just spend way to much right now on seeds so that's the main goal of my breeding, seeds for me and a few friends!


If anything I said sounds stupid or incorrect please by all means help me and point it out nicely

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Doc, just a thought...
If a person is going to undertake a breeding project, then I would assume them to be versed in the art of growing the plant. In essence, a new breeder is more than likely going to be (or needs to be) a competent veteran grower. And as such, I would feel comfortable in giving instructions to such a person on how to formulate and utilize sex forcing solutions.

And, it is of my hack opinion that new breeders have a far greater chance of failure when using the regular M/F scheme for the project. And by failure, I mean not being able to accomplish what you want in the end resulting seeds and plants.
It is far more complicated to end up with a high percentage stable line using a M/F scheme as opposed to a F/F scheme. It is even more complicated to explain to a person how to go about the procedure of stabilization of a line using males, than it is using a F/F forcing plan. Not to mention the time and steps saved using a forcing program.
I think all of the same considerations with selection come into play in both schemes, but the forcing scheme is far faster, easier, and IMO far more dependable. Especially in light of the work required to find paternal stock. New breeders would fair much better, and with much better results, if they selected from potential females to provide for both the maternal as well as the paternal.
If anything at all, the numbers say I am right...and I think many of us realize that this all boils down to numbers.

 

[Tom Hill]

Doc, don't play games with me, you heard me loud and clear. You are one of the ones that should've been straightened out long ago, yet crap still runs through you faster than a Christmas goose.

(Doc) "Whoever sprayed a feminized plant with CS to make more seeds??? Step up first,, it's our understanding you cant,, becuase there's no Y to play with in a XX x XX set up.!!"

Good lord dude, you really don't know what you are talking about, Mentor. Do cannabis a favor and save your advice for you and you.

(Doc)"Otherwise what ppl gonna do,, pull a male plant out their *** to make seeds with? This is my point,, yo'll cant make sustainable seed lines from feminized genetics,, because you need male plants to do it with. That's basic."

Try to follow Doc. You can quickly create homozygous female seedlines via forced reversal/pedigree/progeny testing, then use said seedlines as recurrent parents in a M/F backcrossing scheme if you have such need for the Y. Feel free to pull the donor male out of your *** if you like, lol, makes no difference to me. -T

 

[hoosierdaddy]

mule420...
I typed lots and removed it...
let me just suggest that you find a stable IBL to play with, and leave subcools work to grow and smoke. I promise you it will be a better bet.

 

[freefields]

Doc, don't play games with me, you heard me loud and clear. You are one of the ones that should've been straightened out long ago, yet crap still runs through you faster than a Christmas goose.

(Doc) "Whoever sprayed a feminized plant with CS to make more seeds??? Step up first,, it's our understanding you cant,, becuase there's no Y to play with in a XX x XX set up.!!"

Good lord dude, you really don't know what you are talking about, Mentor. Do cannabis a favor and save your advice for you and you.

(Doc)"Otherwise what ppl gonna do,, pull a male plant out their *** to make seeds with? This is my point,, yo'll cant make sustainable seed lines from feminized genetics,, because you need male plants to do it with. That's basic."

Try to follow Doc. You can quickly create homozygous female seedlines via forced reversal/pedigree/progeny testing, then use said seedlines as recurrent parents in a M/F backcrossing scheme if you have such need for the Y. Feel free to pull the donor male out of your *** if you like, lol, makes no difference to me. -T

Thankyou Tom, that is a very concise and cogent way of refuting the crap that doc spews.

Even me, who's just learning about the subject of sexual expression in cannabis can guffaw out loud at the stupid statement about their being no Y chromosone in a plant grown from femmed seeds so can't be selfed itself!

I just treated a cutting with a homebrew concoction of CS and a couple of other things, I was gonna start a thread to document it, but seeing the amount of crap flying in this thread i won't bother, I'd love to have feedback and advice from guys like Tom, Raco and Gerrit, but there's no way of keeping the idiots and haters out of the discourse and they just ruin things.

 

[Honkytonk]

So, we got 2 sides here, 1 saying Cannabis can't do without the Y chromosome and the other saying the opposite.
Would one of you gentlemen be so kind and tell me what the Y chromosome actually does? So that we all can see what a feminized seedline is 'missing'?
Obviously, all you guys must know this or else you're just people posting about stuff on the internet without any clue what you're talking about.
And while you're at it, please explain why we need the idea of intersexed genes to explain sex reversal of cannabis under stress. Is there any evidence of the existance of those genes?

 

[mule420]

mule420...
I typed lots and removed it...
let me just suggest that you find a stable IBL to play with, and leave subcools work to grow and smoke. I promise you it will be a better bet.

Now that I think about what you said. Most of subcool's stuff is hybrid and might have some crazy hidden unstable or unwanted pheno's if I tried a cross...

I was planning on doing the backcross/cubing thing with any F1's I grow out. So if I backcrossing to F-4 could that make a stable IBL or P1 correct?

Do you have a stable strain in mind? I grow sativa most of the time for me, and a couple of my care give E's like the indica.

Fem seeds or reg? I care less as my first time they are getting the CS treatment... Then when I have more space I can work on the males maybe, we will see how it goes...

 

[Kangativa]

I`m a new grower and do outdoors.
That why I think fem seed will be a better choice because frankly it pisses me off to cary a very heavy bag with soil, dig holes, water frequently and then founding that the plant in the hole is a male :|

I`m not a breeder and I look only for the fem plants for buds (I`m sure most of the guys here are like me) so that`s my opinion.

Actually this year is my first grow so I don`t know much but I thought I should share my opinion

Hi mate....Really in this day and age there is no reason you should be putting males in the ground unless you need them for breeding. You can use so many different methods to sex plants out, artifical light, starting seeds early are just a couple.
What happens if you grow female seeds and on the off chance they hermie and you miss it.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

So, we got 2 sides here, 1 saying Cannabis can't do without the Y chromosome and the other saying the opposite.
Would one of you gentlemen be so kind and tell me what the Y chromosome actually does? So that we all can see what a feminized seedline is 'missing'?
Obviously, all you guys must know this or else you're just people posting about stuff on the internet without any clue what you're talking about.
And while you're at it, please explain why we need the idea of intersexed genes to explain sex reversal of cannabis under stress. Is there any evidence of the existance of those genes?

lol...listening to some one would think I was a monster, rather than a gentleman...but, I can give it a hacks perspective.

The Y chromosome provides the genetic map of a mated pair with what it needs to produce male progeny. Without the Y chromosome to use in the recombination of genes, all slots are filled with X chromosomes and nothing is available to produce males. So, basically the Y chromosome makes boys.

The importance of the intersex gene is evident in light of the fact that when a female/female breeding is done, there is no Y chromosome involved at all, so there is no way a male can exist.
But we see fully developed stamen being produced by females that have no Y chromosome...and how can that be? The intersex genes and their triggers. Without them existing in the genetic map somewhere, there is no chance of seeing even forced stamen.
Now that opens another can o' worms concerning if a true female can be forced to produce stamen or not...of which I am in the camp that says a truly dioecious female cannot be forced to produce stamen, no matter the amount or type of stress.
Some have speculated that trully dioecious of the species does not exist.


The work of Sarath and Mohan Ram should be googled and absorbed by those who are passionate for the truth.

Chemical induction of male flowers is thus a
means of producing guaranteed female plants or of
maintaining gynoecious lines through the production of
seeds following selfing in female plants. If properly
exploited, this technique should be highly rewarding in
crop improvement programmes.

 

[freefields]

If you behaved like a gentleman, hoosier, it would be easier to absorb your info.

So what you're saying in that last post is that female plants, lacking the Y chromosone can only be induced to grow male flowers because they carry an intersex gene?

If 'true' females do exist, they are extremely rare, isn't it more likely that all cannabis carries the gens required to produce both male and female flowers?

Obviously the genes for growing male flowers aren't carried exclusively by the Y chromosone.

I asked Tom a few pages back if there were any known desirable traits/genes that were exclusively carried by the Y chromosone, he replied that many think there are none that are exclusive to the Y chromosone.

If that is the case, then there is no need for the Y chromosone unless you want a male plant, and I don't see the need for males now the technology and knowledge to make females produce pollen is commonplace.

 

[Honkytonk]

lol...listening to some one would think I was a monster, rather than a gentleman...but, I can give it a hacks perspective.

The Y chromosome provides the genetic map of a mated pair with what it needs to produce male progeny. Without the Y chromosome to use in the recombination of genes, all slots are filled with X chromosomes and nothing is available to produce males. So, basically the Y chromosome makes boys.

So if that's all Y does, what's the discussion about?

The importance of the intersex gene is evident in light of the fact that when a female/female breeding is done, there is no Y chromosome involved at all, so there is no way a male can exist.
But we see fully developed stamen being produced by females that have no Y chromosome...and how can that be?

Well, if I told you that the cells which grow into flowers are sexually bi-potent. They carry the genetic code for male and female flowers. Whether they grow into pistils or stamen is decided by the presence or absence of the male or female hormone.
So, we do not need Y for anything else than to bring genetic code that either suppresses the female and/or promotes the male hormone. would you believe me?

The intersex genes and their triggers. Without them existing in the genetic map somewhere, there is no chance of seeing even forced stamen.
Now that opens another can o' worms concerning if a true female can be forced to produce stamen or not...of which I am in the camp that says a truly dioecious female cannot be forced to produce stamen, no matter the amount or type of stress.
Some have speculated that trully dioecious of the species does not exist.

If the genetic code that grows flowers is not controlled by dominance of one sex hormone over the other but by a threshold mechanism we wouldn't need the 'intersexed genes' idea at all.
But well, that's just noise on my part...

 

[freefields]

Well, if I told you that the cells which grow into flowers are sexually bi-potent. They carry the genetic code for male and female flowers. Whether pistils or stamen grows is decided by the presence or absence of the male or female hormone.
So, we do not need Y for anything else than to bring genetic code that either suppresses the female and/or promotes the male hormone. would you believe me?

That makes sense to me, the genes for both male and female flowers are always there and controlled by hormone levels. This will be why a substance that blocks the female hormone will make a female grow male flowers. Do you have a source you can cite to confirm what you say? If so, please post it as it's something I would find very interesting.

If the genetic code that grows flowers is not controlled by dominance of one sex hormone over the other but by a threshold mechanism we wouldn't need the 'intersexed genes' idea at all.
But well, that's just noise on my part...

I'm a little lost here, are you saying that the genes for male/female flowers are controlled by hormones, and what determines the production of male or female flowers depends not on which hormone is present in greatest quantity, but by which hormone is present in sufficient quantity to reach a threshold level?

This is leading me to think that there isn't such a thing as an intersexed genetic trait at all.

 

[Honkytonk]

@freefields:

... which hormone is present in sufficient quantity...

Yes. Stress induced sex change could also be a result of TOO MUCH of a certain (stress) hormone that triggers negative feedback regulation.

 

[freefields]

I'm a little confused still, if both male and female plants have the same genes for flower production and those genes are controlled by hormones, then why does the Y chromosone even exist?

It isn't carrying exclusive genetic info, and it isn't the reason for why some plants are male, then why does it exist?

What I mean is, a female is XX and a male is XY, why aren't all cannabis plants XX if the sex determination is hormonal and not genetic?

 

[englishrick]

ive got the Rachet ,,,,Toms got the Monkey Wrench

oh,,,,and some people say the Ychromozone is part of a mechinizm that is used to repair deletrious mutations within a line

i keep asking "what has the Y got that the X hasnot"?

 

[Tom Hill]

No there is definitely an X/Y determination happening. Selfing the homozygous (female) yields females, mostly. Selfing the heterozygous (male) yields the typical Mendelian ratio, mostly. What happens outside of mostly is where you guys are on to something but this too (threshold effects, hormone production, modifying factors etc) must also be under genetic control, because it differs from plant to plant given the same environment - mostly

I don't subscribe to the black and white theory of "either it has "intersex" genes or it doesn't" either.-T

 

[freefields]

You lost me now guys.

Don't suppose there is a simple way of explaining the mechanism behind the sexual expression in cannabis?

 

[Tom Hill]

Hehe, no, there isn't. What there is are several theories on rather diverse mechanisms ranging from X/Y to what you guys were just getting into. Cannabis is not alone with this conundrum either.