WTF is w/feminized genetics,

[englishrick]

^^^^^alot of cannabis is carring intersexed traits!!,,,,but you just dont see them!!,,,,,this is because when things are heterogeneous, a masking effect is hiding the intersexed expreshions,,,,

 

[Tom Hill]

Hempy, I agree about the reasons given, it's not always the grower screw-up - that's often a bullshit cop-out. So is "oh, some plants just throw some nanners at the end of the cycle, it's normal". It sure as hell isn't the reversal method itself either, you're wrong about that. It's the genetics, always has been, always will be. -T

 

[englishrick]

sometimes supirior genotypes are also carrieing genes that create intersexed expreshion,,

it is the job of the breeder to capture the suiprior genotype and through progressive selection adapt a seedline to a target enviroment

whats the problem?

 

[10k]

people please discuss the topic without the verbal abuse.
It's a pita to clean out off topic attacks between members

 

[TheGerm]

By the way, I got the wrech up the ass thing just thought it was f*cking stupid. I dont give a shit if people buy, sell or stick fem seeds or whatever you want to call them up their asses. I just think their a marketing ploy and bullshit and thats just an opinion. Like all the other opinions on here, there just opinions.

Hey Tom, I thought you said you were checking out of this thread 2 pages ok ? What happened, the charm of this thread was to much to keep you away ? Just asking buddy.

Why aren't more of you guys with all your genetic expertise out ending some forum of human suffering instead of speanding hour after hour on a canna-site ? Again, just wondering. Peace, love and hope to all .

TheGerm

 

[Dalaihempy]

Hempy, I agree about the reasons given, it's not always the grower screw-up - that's often a bullshit cop-out. So is "oh, some plants just throw some nanners at the end of the cycle, it's normal". It sure as hell isn't the reversal method itself either, you're wrong about that. It's the genetics, always has been, always will be. -T

Tom as i see things there is a lot of research still to be done to fully understand the plant we call cannabis.


Cannabis has a self preservation triga tom i have seen it many times i have seen a single seed form on a plant that grew to over 14 ft not just once and i have even seen a female plant have a small branch start to grow out of no were on the main steam that grew out a small male flowers on this branch but once removed it did not grow back or did any flower produce a seed.

There is a big difference between the behavior of a hermaphrodite that will show its self in a female plant as it sexs or half way threw a flowering cycle to a plant that will produce a single seed.

It has to be a hormone that is trigged by the female plant to kick in for its preservation yet what do we know about this nothing.

Fact is we all claim to know a lot but we don't know shit in reality.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Hempy, the unwarranted banning of DDT has been directly responsible for the deaths of millions...repeat MILLIONS of innocent people. You bring it up because your mind is very narrow and you think the DDT thing fits, and I won't argue about DDT with you because....well...what would be the point? It was a fine example of knee-jerk policy pushed forth by folks who thort they knew what they were talking about. When looked at, we can directly link these assholes to the deaths of others. Great plan.
The banning of DDT had a very, very global warming taste to it. Knee-jerk reaction to speculative white papers. Not much more. Death of millions as a result.

How many times can we look through these pages and find folks bitching about seeds not being viable? Many times...it happens on a daily basis. Many would possibly not buy seeds from a vendor that someone reported seeds not popping. However, most seasoned growers look at those reports and pretty much figure the reporter is fucked up somehow.
They fucked up their seeds for what ever reason, and right away they want to blame the breeder and tell everyone about how they have a 98% germination rate on everything they touch...so it has to be the seeds.
These folks need to gain some knowledge and then give it another go.

Now, let's go through and find out just how many folks really are complaining about fem seeds being more hermie prone than regular seeds. I don't seem to see all the reports folks are claiming exist. Where are all these reports these people keep using as ammo for their unwarranted campaign? I say it should be put on the shoulders of those making the claims.

The Germ, you sachet in here throwing stones at ICMag from the very first day. Talking about how you were warned about how people are here, and you stated a couple of times you found it to be true. Well, you were more than likely warned by another asshole who also decided to sachet in here and show how fucking stupid and ill mannered they are.
What you have brought to the table so far is SQAUT. Nothing of substance, and mostly just thuglife relies. I suggest YOU figure out what the fuck you want out of this place, and not worry about what others want or need from this place. Just who the fuck do you think you are? I say, go find a nice thuglife nuthug to join up with. You don't seem to really want to be involved in the real conversations. You only want to be a cheerleader for the ignorant. Albeit you did find the right thread for a few of your constituents...as this one has a few loons that just don't get it. Just like stagger lee, the only reason he even gets replied to is because he started the thread. I'm sure he thort it was going to be a gang-up pile-on against feminized seeds, and that most would simply chime in with him about how fucking lame they are...but what he didn't realize is, that this place is full of knowledgeable people, including some of the pioneers of cannabis. The folks here are not fooled easy, and are a bit more of an adult crowd than maybe was hoped for. Folks here tend to want the truth about things, and have the desire to actually research things rather than depend on thuglife bullshit for everything they have to offer up.
Anyone who brings thuglife bullshit and voodoo to the table is going to be challenged here...and I for one and damn glad there is a site that has such people. Thuglife nut hugging sites are for thugs and nut huggers only.
So, you don't like the truth? You don't like to be challenged on anything you provide as fact? Then find another place to throw your worthless shit around. It just don't fly around here, except for with the few thugs this place will always have.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Tom as i see things there is a lot of research still to be done to fully understand the plant we call cannabis.

Then why the fuck don't you research it?
You bring nothing to the table but fable and fantasy, and call for research. You bring up things, then offer up papers of totally unrelated issues as backup. Seems the only thing you really have to offer up are the claims folks make about fem seeds being hermie prone, yet you haven't shown us a fucking one of those reports. Not a one.

See, I had to ask the OP several times to post up quotes from the books he was touting. I knew if he did, we could get down to the root of the issue. And basically we did get to that root, which is that some of the books he was touting simply are wrong, and others he simply misunderstood or didn't comprehend. Nothing more nothing less. By him finally offering up the quotes that he was basing his thread on, we found the root of the problem. He probably doesn't think so, but it was found and I completely understand where he is coming from now.
Why don't you post up the evidence you have now, hempy. We will get to the bottom of those claims as well.

 

[elmanito]

Hempy, the unwarranted banning of DDT has been directly responsible for the deaths of millions...repeat MILLIONS of innocent people. You bring it up because your mind is very narrow and you think the DDT thing fits, and I won't argue about DDT with you because....well...what would be the point? It was a fine example of knee-jerk policy pushed forth by folks who thort they knew what they were talking about. When looked at, we can directly link these assholes to the deaths of others. Great plan.
The banning of DDT had a very, very global warming taste to it. Knee-jerk reaction to speculative white papers. Not much more. Death of millions as a result.

If you're meaning the million deaths caused by malaria, i think you have to read your papers again.Because of the low cost of DDT (Pyrethrin is much more expensive but less harmfull) is still used till today to eliminate the malaria parasite, even though it is not fully supported by the WHO.

Namaste

 

[Karma Genetics]

 

[THC123]

Hey at least some breeder that doesn't give in to the money making hype , respect Karma!

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I really didn't want to get into the DDT debate, because that is a whole other can of worms.
I used the example because it fit the model of knee-jerk reactionary government policy.
But if I were to debate the issue, I would start by saying it would be hard to deny that deaths (along with other detrimental issues including hunger) have occurred as a direct result of the DDT ban.
The means far outweighed the ends with that issue.

 

[hubcap]

Hey at least some breeder that doesn't give in to the money making hype , respect Karma!

many have stated the very same thing before and have 'eaten their words.'
no offense at all meant to karma . just sayin....
i could name more than 4 or 5 breeders that have adamantly claimed to 'never' delve into the feminized game, only to be currently offering them. i need not name them. the educated know of whom i speak.


that being said.......
the opinions discussed in this thread (between the bullshit and side tracking) are quite interesting.
its cool to see so many respected members that have very differing opinions on this whole debacle.

-cap

 

[Dalaihempy]

DDT info read it.

The U.S. Ban on DDT
A Continuing Success Story

Why was DDT banned originally in the U.S.?

The pesticide DDT was banned in the United States in 1972 because it contributed to the near extinction of birds, including the bald eagle and the peregrine falcon. DDT is a persistent chemical that becomes concentrated in animal tissues, rising in concentration in animals that are higher in the food chain. It is particularly toxic to fish, aquatic invertebrates and insects (including some that are beneficial). While not immediately toxic to birds, DDT causes long-term reproductive problems by causing eggshells to weaken and crack, threatening the survival of many bird species. Because of its chemical nature, once DDT is applied in a field or other environment, it remains in an active form for decades. People throughout the United States still carry DDT and its metabolites in their bodies, 30 years after the pesticide was banned in this country. Most other developed countries have also banned DDT, but it is still used in many developing countries.

Did the U.S. ban on DDT do any good?

Since the nationwide ban took effect, there has been a gradual decline in DDT levels in humans and in wildlife. There has been no resurgence of malaria or any of the other diseases that DDT was used to fight in the United States. Moreover, farmers have found effective alternative means to control insect pests. The DDT ban is one of the very few actions directly responsible for the recovery of species once in danger of extinction, including the peregrine falcon, the bald eagle and the brown pelican. It also has clearly helped other bird species that were not yet endangered but whose populations were declining due to DDT. As Russell Train, chairman emeritus of the World Wildlife Fund put it, "The banning of DDT was one of the most important legal victories ever won for wildlife."
http://www.edf.org/article.cfm?ContentID=4407


One more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT

 

[Gerrit]

Hey at least some breeder that doesn't give in to the money making hype , respect Karma!

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but that's exactly what it is, marketing or in other/your words, money making hype, it's just aimed at the other side of the spectrum, those customers that fear or dislike the feminised seeds for some sort of moral reasoning, or largely based on ignorance.

No disrespect for Karma, as he is indeed one of the more modest and down to earth kind of people here, but an ad like that does not have anything to do with integrity or "proper breeding", it's advertising and nothing more.
In terms of preserving/protecting the gene pool or integrity levels, there is much more to gain by discussing why most focus on selfing and/or pollinating the same "prize cut", not even because they have actually seen/recognised traits of interest, but only because it's "hot" at the moment. (kush, og whatever, diesel, cheese, dog, or anything fancy)
How can any "breeder" put his signature into something if at least half his/her work is based on the selection of OTHERS, don't they even know how to pop a seed themselves?.

@ Dalaihempy, You seem to have taken a very strong stand against feminised seeds based on the experience from OTHERS too.
Although I can understand that you value the information that is posted about feminised seeds, your interpretation of that info is shaky to say the least i.m.o..

The only thing I agree on is that indeed there are more hermaphrodites REPORTED from feminised seeds than from regular but...., that does not have to mean its a fact that fem lines actually contain more hermaphrodites than regular lines.
There are many factors that can play a role in this.

For example, an early hermaphrodite which shows male flowers on the first nodes but would revert back to female dominance further in life, would most likely be classified as male and disregarded if found within a regular line.
But a similar plant would be reported as a hermaphrodite within a female line, just because people do not expect or accept it when anything other than a female comes from those seeds.
Another common difference is that feminised plants are often put into flower at a very young age and often have to go through stress like topping bending or (the horrible i.m.o.) supercropping.
Most regulars however, are grown at least to a certain age so sex will show itself, and at the same time it's more common to hold back the original mom, and use cuttings for flowering which make they can be flowered at a smaller size and without added stress factors to reduce their height.
Aside Ethylene there are many more substances (sorry, can't come up with a better word in English) that play a role in the sexual expression of cannabis, many of those are also produced by the plant to combat/resist stressful situations.
He he, it's all they can do as they can't run away lol.

So far, I have found no proof at all that any of my female lines show a higher rate of hermaphrodites than the regulars, more the opposite.
There is also no indication at all that the vigour or quality is compromised by the feminisation process/technique.
I have to admit that the amount of plants that are evaluated leave quite a bit of room for "statistical error", but at least I have some practical experience on the subject.

Your arguments against feminised seeds carry as much weight as the moralistic arguments most politicians have against cannabis/drugs in general.

Fact is that sexual expression within cannabis is a complex matter and notoriously unstable.
I can't grasp what exactly is going on on a molecular level either, but until someone comes up with some real scientific backing or at least a well founded theory why it's dangerous or bad, I don't take them very serious.

Lastly, for reasons stated above, it's my opinion that anyone that claims to have "hermaphrodite free" lines, whether they are feminised or regular is either lying, ignorant, or more skilled and lucky than I could ever imagine to be possible.

Done with the rant now, thanks for listening.

 

[THC123]

Well the only reason that i dislike fems is cuz i actually like being able to get males to make other crosses etc

this femenising is there so that a : people can get the females they always wanted without worrying about males

b. for the seed companies to saveguard their genetics

but i think it is fucked up that seedbanks are slowly going all femenised , that's why i am opposed at least give us a choice

that's why i respect breeders who say no to fem or seedbanks that still give us the choice

 

[Gerrit]

Hi THC,

I can understand your point but it's no reason to dislike feminised plants/seeds.
If you dislike the fact that many have stopped producing/selling their regular lines well, that is a different subject on which I agree.
It might be influenced or even initiated by the upcoming of the female seeds, but the presence of them does not necessarily eliminates the existence of regular lines.
One does not have to say no to fem. in order to maintain the regular, you can and many still have, both.

 

[BrianBadonde]

i believe DJ`s Mutant Factor is because he used too many single male selections,,,,,his populations were not big enough to stop it getting the Mutant Factor,,,i see it as 1:1 to the extreem..amazingly inbreed!!!,,,,but despetly needing a boost to stop this mutant factor....works amazingly in ourcrosses,,,

For the record, even though its already been stated plenty of times on this site, DJ DID NOT BREED CHOC THAI. and in crosses that contain OPT ie half the Choc Thai the mutants are prevalent!. On a side note DJ states he does 1:1 mating for the release of "seedlots" ie seeds that will resemble what he wants and being homogenous (ie look the same) hence he uses a BC in there too. he hasn't stated he just does lots of 1:1 matings.

A major difference in the two is that what we're looking at (appears male), stands out much more in a female selection program and this is yet another argument in favor imo. Plants of the very same sexual predicament (intersexed plants that appear male) are more camouflaged in a M/F program, but they are there none the less, and likely very often used for breeding as well.

In this light, and with much stronger arguments too imo, could we not go on a rampage about how folks who use M/F programs are fucking everything up, lol? Justa jab -T

Tom hill ~

Nice Jab, there-in lies the problem, most people breeding and tossing out their so called strains are doing more damage than "feminization" ever will, though the term gynoecious is much better, a proper breeding program will incorporate many different techniques not one or the other but many.

 

[BrianBadonde]

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but that's exactly what it is, marketing or in other/your words, money making hype, it's just aimed at the other side of the spectrum, those customers that fear or dislike the feminised seeds for some sort of moral reasoning, or largely based on ignorance.

No disrespect for Karma, as he is indeed one of the more modest and down to earth kind of people here, but an ad like that does not have anything to do with integrity or "proper breeding", it's advertising and nothing more.
In terms of preserving/protecting the gene pool or integrity levels, there is much more to gain by discussing why most focus on selfing and/or pollinating the same "prize cut", not even because they have actually seen/recognised traits of interest, but only because it's "hot" at the moment. (kush, og whatever, diesel, cheese, dog, or anything fancy)
How can any "breeder" put his signature into something if at least half his/her work is based on the selection of OTHERS, don't they even know how to pop a seed themselves?.

@ Dalaihempy, You seem to have taken a very strong stand against feminised seeds based on the experience from OTHERS too.
Although I can understand that you value the information that is posted about feminised seeds, your interpretation of that info is shaky to say the least i.m.o..

The only thing I agree on is that indeed there are more hermaphrodites REPORTED from feminised seeds than from regular but...., that does not have to mean its a fact that fem lines actually contain more hermaphrodites than regular lines.
There are many factors that can play a role in this.

For example, an early hermaphrodite which shows male flowers on the first nodes but would revert back to female dominance further in life, would most likely be classified as male and disregarded if found within a regular line.
But a similar plant would be reported as a hermaphrodite within a female line, just because people do not expect or accept it when anything other than a female comes from those seeds.
Another common difference is that feminised plants are often put into flower at a very young age and often have to go through stress like topping bending or (the horrible i.m.o.) supercropping.
Most regulars however, are grown at least to a certain age so sex will show itself, and at the same time it's more common to hold back the original mom, and use cuttings for flowering which make they can be flowered at a smaller size and without added stress factors to reduce their height.
Aside Ethylene there are many more substances (sorry, can't come up with a better word in English) that play a role in the sexual expression of cannabis, many of those are also produced by the plant to combat/resist stressful situations.
He he, it's all they can do as they can't run away lol.

So far, I have found no proof at all that any of my female lines show a higher rate of hermaphrodites than the regulars, more the opposite.
There is also no indication at all that the vigour or quality is compromised by the feminisation process/technique.
I have to admit that the amount of plants that are evaluated leave quite a bit of room for "statistical error", but at least I have some practical experience on the subject.

Your arguments against feminised seeds carry as much weight as the moralistic arguments most politicians have against cannabis/drugs in general.

Fact is that sexual expression within cannabis is a complex matter and notoriously unstable.
I can't grasp what exactly is going on on a molecular level either, but until someone comes up with some real scientific backing or at least a well founded theory why it's dangerous or bad, I don't take them very serious.

Lastly, for reasons stated above, it's my opinion that anyone that claims to have "hermaphrodite free" lines, whether they are feminised or regular is either lying, ignorant, or more skilled and lucky than I could ever imagine to be possible.

Done with the rant now, thanks for listening.

thank you for posting, one thing that has been a pet hate of mine for a while is the lack of breeders in the cannabis world that come out and speak, it has to be said many are hacks in this area, kudos for yourself and of course Tom Hill for entering debates like this and being open.

 

[englishrick]

For the record, even though its already been stated plenty of times on this site, DJ DID NOT BREED CHOC THAI. and in crosses that contain OPT ie half the Choc Thai the mutants are prevalent!. On a side note DJ states he does 1:1 mating for the release of "seedlots" ie seeds that will resemble what he wants and being homogenous (ie look the same) hence he uses a BC in there too. he hasn't stated he just does lots of 1:1 matings.

but dont you agree ,,??,,,,,,,if DJ used more males in his final breeding ,,,he might give us some repair mechinisms too,,,so maybe we could avoid the mutant factor without having to outcross?