why not breed with fem'd seed?

[hoosierdaddy]

Hmmm....I'm thinking that enviro stress may well effect the growth of a certain phenotype, but to actually effect the phenotypical representation (or genetic map), would take generations to achieve.

 

[DocLeaf]

Phenotype = the climatic influence as observable over the genotype.

As you say , give x10 growers the same genetic clone and they will each get different phenotypical results based on environ.

The term "pheno" is BS.!!

In horticultural terms individual plants from a Genus species cultivar are called "specimens"..!

Hope this helps

Doc????? come on now. NOBODY takes a pic of 100 plants in pots but only shoots the last 20 of them! Lets see that pic.

We do... we're not crazy ,, the corner of a bed u'll do! (just in case pigs catched the camera) :wink:

Those old images got deleted not long after they got uploaded for Growdoc to look at. Besides we got nothing to prove here,, ask about,, used to work off x500 seed packs as standard practise when at S.P.E.C. (s.ome p.lace e.lse c.rew)

These days I n I strictly homegrowing again , nah commercial

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

"Have you ever seen a single genotype (clone) grown in 10 different growrooms, or outdoors vs. indoors? or that same clone given no fertilizer and then one given fertilizer? One with bad mites and one with none?"

Exactly my point, haven't you? If 10 different GOOD growers grow the same clone in relatively low stress environments, the results will be amazingly similar. I've seen it and I'm sure many others here have too. I've grown a clone of something that was obviously the same as commercial sourced one grown by someone with reasonable chops. It's exactly that observation that proved it to me. Of course, if you're comparing less than expert growers to other less than expert growers, I'm sure you'll see you're big impact of the environment on the phenotype. Lets face it, environment shapes phenotypes, ok. But, it does it through stress. Like any other crop, remove the stress and you come closer to fully realizing the genetic limitations.

 

[DocLeaf]

Mr G - all members of the LGA have grown a few Cheese clone... indoor, outdoor, glasshouse, organic, chemical, over compost, coco, and NFT... SOG, LST, Standard, Super-cropped and Seeded. We all got slightly different results

Edit: Shinobi also won the LGA Cup with the same Cheese cut

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

Slightly doesn't count! I call it...no backsies. No seriously, I know what you guys are saying, I don't mean to come off all contrary. But, people are always giving too much credit to the environment and not enough to the genes. It's that way in all of farming. Farmers don't want to learn about delicious Prudunce Purple tomatos they just want to stick with Better Boy. Anyone who's grown both side by side won't keep trying to feed that Better Boy some kind of magic fertilizer, they'll just switch to PP.

 

[DocLeaf]

Well we all still had Cheese sure ,, and it didn't turn into WhiteWidow .. but the bud density, resin profile, taste and smell were all VERY different in each sample to a regular cheese smoker's eyes, nose, and throat

Anyhow lets get this back on track. Why not breed with fem. seeds? People can breed with feminized seeds, but the long-term effects of future inbreeding from the same feminized seed stocks are, as yet, unknown to the cannabis community.

How come we've never seen a feminized F2 line for sale

Peace out

 

[DocLeaf]

people are always giving too much credit to the environment and not enough to the genes.

I agree with that ^^^

As Growdoc says its 50% Grower 50% Genetics ! If the genetics are below standard then the grower is fighting an uphill battle from the start. These days we compost as many seedlings as we grow-on,, based on genetic health.

Also I got a question please:

What happens if a chem-head sprays a feminized plant with chemicals? Does it make male flowers?

Thanks

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

Thanks Doc. I'm just saying if you guys experienced BIG differences, maybe you should learn to remove the stresses that limit genetic expression. It's all about experience, the longer you grow and breed the more you see the power of nature over nurture. It works the other way too. Since you want to see plants express themselves as individually as possible, you naturally gravitate towards the lower levels of stress that allow the maximum expression of genetic variation. Each plant is cared for and observed as an individual rather than part of a commercial crop.

I wouldn't say there was anything wrong with breeding feminized seed, if I thought it was actually possible. I don't mean mechanically, of course I understand that. I mean actually breed in the sense of selection. If there's limited selection available, that's great for the grower, but crappy for the breeder who might have improvements in mind. Every batch of feminized seeds I've grown has produced a bunch of very similar plants. I have no reason to believe that they are any other way for other people. That's one of their appeals, uniformity. I understand that uniformity might be a beginning breeders main goal, but it's one they'll probably move to a less important position after a few short years.

 

[DocLeaf]

Some of Franco's fem. lines (GHSco) are open bred somehow (smart fem. breeding).
This is why the AUH#2 and AUH #3 show variation between specimens from the same feminized seed pack. So,, it is possible to maintain diversity in a fem. line... if you know what you are doing

Edit: We guess (my mistake) that GHSco crossed some parents from base stock. Then introduced pollen from separate clones in the line back onto the parent to make these fem. lines display variation. Franco had us scratching our heads for nearly a year over this.. his fem breeding methods are cutting edge

 

[hoosierdaddy]

So, if I sts several different sisters, and use the pollen to dust yet another selected sister, haven't I just did what we have done with males in an open pollination of select males w/ a select mother?

Again, it's only speculation that I am missing any good genetic material by not using male chromosomes, and I am introducing diversity to the next group using the various females. (females that I have a pretty damn good idea about as well...unlike the male that requires a certain degree of faith)

I can't see it taking too many months to figure that out???? Or am I missing some sort of Franco majic here?

 

[lost in a sea]

LIAS: "sorry vanxant but i do fully understand meiosis.

a femmed girl,

has an x chromosome from her mother and an x from the dad, which comes from his mother."

>>>NO im sorry, that is NOT meiosis. Please review the process of cell division known as meiosis.


.

i dont have to go through explaining the different stages of meiosis, for your approval!

there was a full stop at the end of that initial statement, and a 2 line gap. next time i'l somehow try to make it more obvious im talking to everyone and not just you.

i was simply saying, sorry, but i do understand meiosis ....

i think maybe one or two peeps in here are low on smoke or summit??

there is no reason to not breed with femmed seeds, but that depends on what you trying to produce in those seeds, as to whether it is the best course of action.

if your breeding something, and not just making ,practically, genetic clones of an initial mother in seed form..... then you want future diversity to select from, without bringing in some new males x chromosome to your line, so you kinda want as many males from the same generation that the initial femmed girl came from, just because its then really easy to try and reintroduce the initial X chromosomes back into the line. if you are selfing a girl and hitting sisters or clones of the girl you've selfed, then your not really breeding, because your not selecting and improving, nor introducing new information to improve the line, to then go on to select through and refine.

it totally depends on what you want to do in the future. if its a short term project because your happy with the mother and you just want to encapsulate that girl but in seed form, then you just want to self the girl and like you say use the pollen on a sister or clone.

but to me, to be breeding with something, you have to want to change a plants genetics from its initial state, into a new form that you predetermin(or discover) .

 

[~Mac Lee~]

i heard that it is not good to breed with fem'd seed,can someone please tell me why?and explain it to me like i'm 5 years old!

I breed an old school JOINT DOCTORS mtf x lowrider wit FEMALE SEEDS ww back in the day, and they turned out like shit dunno if it was because of the AF gen or what. But i had mutants out the azzzzz my wife even said SHIIIIT get rid of them fcks LOL never made it to flower but i got a shit load of seeds....

 

[VanXant]

1. There is NO decrease in AUTOSOMAL genetic diversity by using feminization.
2. Feminization doesnt just mean selfing a plant. It can also be an outcrossing.
3.lost in a sea doesnt understand meiosis. If he did he would acknowledge that the same genes are distributed through femxfem matings as distributed by m x f matings, sans the Y, which is only present in males.
4.Environmental stresses are never completely removed from outdoor grows. You dont control the weather. Environment is part of the equation (GxE=P)and is very much part of the Phenotype. Breeders who dont take environment into account are introducing 'experimental errors' into selection. EVERY living organism is a result of genes AND environment, not just genes.
5.'individual' is a better word to describe a single plant in a population, than 'pheno' or 'specimen'.
6. hoosierdaddy has it right.

 

[GMT]

Van, where do you stand on the concept of epigentical phenotype shifting following femminisation? Where the stress caused by the reversal process of one mother is sufficient to create an epigenetic impact causing the expression of phenotypes which wouldn't normally be expressed in that seed line without that stress event. This alteration (being a temporary one) would then mean that any selections made upon phenotype expression in the offspring would be dubious at best, and the traits could not become true breeding as after a couple of genertions the epigenetic impact would fade and these phenotypes would no longer be expressed but get replaced by the "normal" phenotype for those genes in that environment. Do you feel that the genes from the "unstressed" female would be more likely to become dominant in that case, counteracting the effect, or do you feel that the stress levels involved in femminisation are insufficient to be considered to have an epigenetic impact at all?

 

[Skrappie]

I'm new to the ways of the cannabis,

I've had less then 10 cycles so my questions may be sophomoric,

why is everyone equating breeding with fem seeds to selfing?

IF i took (female) bubblegum to (female) sweet tooth, using any number of chemical methods to produce male flowers from a branch of one...or even both, then use the resulting pollen on the female plants.

How is that not breeding? Why would the plants come out "more or less the same"

I understand but disagree with the theory of genetic diversity being bottlenecked by using females to breed.

I dont understand when someone mentions using females to breed it is automatically assumed that the female was stressed by some "normal" methods (light leaks, old age) or that you're just selfing.

Also if some traits are only represented by a males
how are they transferred to your female plants?
if they are transferred to future females, (which is the reason some people stick to using solely malexfemale breeding methods) then how are the traits only represented by males?

Genetic diversity is one thing, crafting a plant that other stoners want to grow and smoke is another. I don't think using either as the compass in your breeding regime is "bad"

Please forgive my simple understanding of this complex discussion.

 

[bbing]

some traits are sexed linked....an inter-sexual plant will not necessarily preserve these traits or will they?

we chase alot of recessive alleles no?
please consider epistasis

Some remarks from some folks I have immense respect for are sounding a bit Lammarkian.

 

[VanXant]

GMT,

Treating a healthy clone with STS is not a 'stress'. It's a short-lived hormone therapy.

(I think) if there were any discernible epigenetic effects, it would be that future plants will not produce male flowers without an STS 'cue'., no? Would that be a bad epigenetic trait for drug cannabis?
So, no I am not concerned about epigenetic effects from feminization induced by chemicals. Its not like its a constant environmental parameter...
I would tend to be more concerned about the effect of poor indoor growroom environments for ~100 years, causing appreciable epigenetic effects in our plants.

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

Talking about the interaction of environment with the phenotypic expression of cannabis is a tricky subject, too many variables. Even talking about 'stress' itself is tricky because cannabis, being the tough weed that it is, usually takes a number of insults before it shows a 'symptom'. That's why diagnosis of problems is so complicated. There's actually four things wrong already.

I'm surprised to hear people who have experience with breeding cannibis talk about environment as if it really mattered all that much. I always thought that the reason breeders join the fun in the first place is because they come to understand the ultimate superiority of the gene over the growroom.

in my experience, the expected phenotypes of so-called stable plants breed above the tropics will simply not be there if grown in the equator. there is no debate about this issue, as I am tired of popping famed lines bred for a long vegetative day, which the equator/tropics simply cannot provide ever.

lets take skunk number one, where was this bred? what latitude?

when I grew it in the tropical andes, at around 2000mts elevation above sea level (6000 feet), the results were nothing at all like all the beautiful vigorous plants I had seen pictured everywhere, and although the resulting flowers were good, they did not match that well the consistent descriptions of the resulting buds when grown in similar latitudes as it was originally bred in.

environment plays a direct role in vigor and overall phenotype expressions, this is true outdoors and specially when we factor in the latitude.

how much money are seed companies making by selling stock bred at northern lats to equatorial/tropical outdoor growers? just reg seed, not even counting fem... oh man, you have no idea how many famed seeds have failed the test of this environment.

this is also why I have come to believe that the introduction of dutch genes into Colombian outdoor strains was never possible in their pure form, and so they had to cross the dutch genes to the well adapted sativas of the area, either way, the resulting offsprings of many dutch-genes selfed (that is, f1 x f1) in the tropical andes will not result in more well adapted plants; although in some cases they do adapt, but it is in the case of hybrids that contain genes that may have come initially from a similar tropical latitude.

do not even get me started on how well do indoor-bred plants with a long vegetative day do outdoors here oh the horror...

there is a lot of be said about environment and phenotypes when I think about it... take lines like malawi gold and swazi red, these come from below the equator, in places where there is more variation in photoperiod than in colombia for example, and when you take those genes above the equator into the tropical andes, they will express themselves considerably different than how they express themselves back in southern africa. however, these genes when reproduced in the tropical andes, do adapt at a fast rate, which when compared to some of the highly inbreed dutch-lines, gives one a lot to think about.

but this is way off topic...

great thread btw...

and I tend to side with the bias DocLeaf has, ital is vital afterall.

peace all

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

I would like to share my experience with this subject. I am not a breeder but I do enjoy crossing plants to find something new, only for myself now because of what I’m going to discuss. I’m am not technical on all the terms so bare with me. I had 4 packs of the Very Berry Surprise. I selected three females from these. Tested them with several types of stress including light leaks and had no signs of hermies. I test all my plants with stress. I used 2 G13 X Blueberry Sativa male to cross this with. The males were used on Bubble Gum, Oaxacanna, Bubble Dust, Hash Plant and Sour Cali. I never had the first hermie from any of these and I have grown out 3 generation of these crosses. I had three friends helping at this time.
When I did the VBS X G13BS I selected 2 males and backed cross them to the 3 VBS mothers. Tested them without problems. Selected 2 males from these and backed crossed them again to the VBS mothers. When I grew these out everything was female and hermied around week 5 ruining everyone’s crops. The pollen that created this was also used on several other strains also produced the same results. I had no males only female hermies.
I still have a little more to go when I crossed the VBS X G13BS to them selves making F1, F2 and F3 I ran into hermies in the F3 generation, although these did produce males some of which turned hermied. If anyone could tell me what happened or how to fix this I would appreciate it. You will have to give time to respond because I cant type. I still have about 300 seeds of the first VBS X G13BS left. Pictured below. It sure was good smoke. I cant figure out were I made a bad selection at or if these are separate problems.
Thanks Organic Monk.

hello Organic Monk,

there are many variables to consider here... to begin with, you are working with lines that are already poly hybrids, so their stability is unknown, specially the resulting off-spring. moreover, you do not know for sure the history of the parent stock nor breeding techniques used to make the poly hybrids you used as parental lines for your crosses.

and this goes further to show that there are no guarantees when breeding or in science, at any given day, all your accepted axioms can be challenged by newly observed phenomena.

there are few predictions to be made when the whole occupation relies on trial and error.

peace

 

[DocLeaf]

I've got another question...

How long does a feminized plant keep as a mother for? Or as a clone line?

Answer: not very long.. because they get played out real quick!

We don't see many fem. "keeper" clones about ... (after 12 months old),, please throw up photos if you have one