why is watering down sativas still a thing?

[Orange's Greenhouse]

Most of the people here don't go to dispensaries. In fact most of us do go to the breeder.. and lots of us distinctly search for unique and rare plants. Dispensaries purchase from commercial grows and their top priorities are flower time, yield and bag appeal. Actual quality of high and flavor are barely a consideration.

Glad that you completely missed the point I was trying to make.
In the example you called me out for it was not 'directly from the breeder' but rather found in a fridge.
And I wasn't thinking that a community of mostly non-US growers are regular customers of dispensaries.

 

[bigtacofarmer]

Ok. No more stupid politics in the thread

 

[phunkeeboodah]

i learned to avoid sativas on the ontario cannabis store's value menu. always racy, not a true sativa high

 

[eastcoastjoe]

Ok. No more stupid politics in the thread

I’ll meet you in the speakers corner

 

[bigtacofarmer]

I’ll meet you in the speakers corner

Someday... Maybe. Mostly a dimwit echo chamber. Sorry I got started here. You know how I feel and vote.

 

[numberguy]

How is that relevant? Anecdotal evidence is at the root of this believe.

To be clear, I'm not disputing that you can experience different subjective effects. I'm questioning if that difference is due to the plant (especially with such ill defined categories such as indica and sativa) and not tied to other factors, such as taste, the story connected to what you're consuming and dose.

You ask at the right place, this is where you can find some who actually have much experience with this. As growers and breeders some of us have decades of experience smoking and growing thousands of plants and lots of varieties. When I test each plant that I grow it is in the same setting at the same time of day same pipe ect, ect, so the set and setting are not factors, the only thing that changes is what I ate earlyer and I am a day older. I can tell you with 100% certainty that each plant is different in effect, when you get up to the stronger ones it becomes difficult to notice the differences but they are there, they require multiple tests to evaluate. Yes there are individuals who can not feel or know the differences, I found out long ago that I can not rely on others to test plants, in the early years I would try and only get [its ok] for every one tested. I chalked that up to expense they did not want me to increase prices. As the years went by, I realized others were affected by other issues which made them not able to detect differences in weed, examples are seriously injured people, laying in a hospital for extended periods affected there ability to differentiate, super heavy smokers have a hard time with it too, and there are others who can only feel the strongest of affects sometimes this group do not know they are affected and think everyone is like them or others exaggerate the affects to them. I hope this helps you to understand.

 

[Orange's Greenhouse]

Did you read what you wrote?
From the three aspects drug (that includes dosage), set and setting you're only changing 2 so it is always the same.
When people tell you there's no difference... you brush it aside and know that you are right despite evidence of the opposite?

But your attitude towards weed is best described with your own words:

[Some] think everyone is like them or others exaggerate the affects to them

 

[nepalnt21]

When people tell you there's no difference... you brush it aside

well yeah (not saying i speak for the other guy, just giving my 2c), cause you're making absolute statements based upon your experiences. which is short- sighted.

if you had said something like "i personally don't notice much of a difference..." ya know? that makes more sense, right?

and then implying everyone else is basically blowing hot air or it's a placebo... it's patronizing and silly.

 

[Chi13]

For exotic sativa Chasers looks is bottom of the list.

Top to bottom of list for me

1. High

I've only got one criteria.

 

[numberguy]

Did you read what you wrote?
From the three aspects drug (that includes dosage), set and setting you're only changing 2 so it is always the same.
When people tell you there's no difference... you brush it aside and know that you are right despite evidence of the opposite?

But your attitude towards weed is best described with your own words:

You came here and asked, that you dont want to hear any answers speaks volumes. they never said no difference and neither did I.

 

[Ca++]

Our individual abilities to taste things, are as varied as our individual abilities on the sports field. We just can't see the differences, at all, so don't imagine there to be any. We fall across a spectrum, and are quite evenly spread, from can't taste anything, to can taste things that are still in the cupboard. The can't taste group (of which a third of us belong) simply don't realise they are missing out, and if they can't smell something others can, will just shrug it off as the others imagining it, or being weird. Never accepting their abilities are simply weak.
I have a connoisseur friend (or so he claims) who fell to pieces when I put about 10 jars out at a session, to see which would be that years outdoors. He even questioned why I had done it. I had started the mums early, and flowered cuts to assess them. It seemed logical enough to me, but like our orange here, he actually can't tell one thing from another. He just spent the night avoiding any decision making, and questioning what we were doing. Wanting to put it away and smoke the indoor. Which oddly enough, this was. He just didn't see it that way, as his decision making process is faulty.

The ex was blatantly tipsy after half a larger, but to her, their was no effect until for some reason she couldn't get up off the floor. Then we have the guys saying the trips didn't work, while they can barely keep it all together. Or the pills didn't, but they love you. Some people are right blunt tools. They really do find all weed the same, and to them, it is.
Obviously it's not. We have identified a number of components that effect us, and other that don't, but modify one's that do. All of these come in different ratios from plant to plant, or may not even be measurable. Science totally backs up what anybody that's ever had cannabis should know.
A study that everyone liked the best tasting cookies, didn't need to be made. If they are all cookies, but one smells better, then obviously it's the one people want. You would have to have a poor sense of smell to choose another. Cookies stand out feature is the taste, so if you are in the 3rd of us that can't appreciate that, then cookies isn't outstanding. You are likely to make lists of desires from your weed, that don't include taste. If you put taste high on your list, you likely have a good sense of smell, so see it as a necessary pleasure. It would them be hard not to like cookies. As it would be hard for them to like something that tastes bad.

We are all individuals. To some of us, yes, all weed is the same. I just don't know how these people can try and preach it's true though, instead of realising they are blunt tools.

 

[ojd]

I've only got one criteria.

But as mentioned by others some tastebuds of people are not the same of others so don't experience the flavours as well or at all like others do , and some don't care I guess ? , but that doesn't make sense to me but each to his/her own.

For me exotic Cannabis has exotic taste not just exotic High.

I say to my friends I love weed as long as it has 1 of the 2 factors( Grail is both) at A plus standards

Potency/flavour

I've had strains like Soma's NYCD Red Grapefruit cut that had a very light High , but the taste was so special I can never get bored of that taste , loved to smoke it back in the day ( not seen it in well over a decade)

Then had G13 hybrids with G13 dominant phenos that didn't taste good at all( not bad but mediocre), but was insanely strong and special, 3 x as strong as your next strongest jar.

Both of these types I enjoy and seek

But best ever jars are both taste/High and that's the Grail, but either of 2 above have great value for me , for smoking and breeding.

 

[Rgd]

Old people tell us that 40 years ago everything was better

we say that some stuff was way better..most wasn’t

no one says what you just said

and this new stuff is just a fad and soon everyone will come to their senses.

we realize that its ea$y to grow glitzy weed that gets yah whacked for a bit
and we would dump all our hard to grow sativas if the new stuffs ..did anything for us

I just find it difficult to take such a materialistic position. With the human experience, especially drug effects, being so subjective the most important factor of weed is leaflet widenese?

leaf wideness seems to possess sedation and lack of lofty creative thought patterns and long lasting energy.

what we laugh at is defining great weed by the way it smells and tastes.. before high

 

[hamstring]

I think lots of consumers are fooled by the name game and bag appeal hype. Someone told them bud density and purple was a sign of quality. But they are slowly learning the difference. Took me a while to see a picture of a frosty brown string of calyx and consider that appealing. But once you know you know.

And some people get out of work and want to smoke a bowl of something that makes them not want to move. Some people do not want weed that makes them think. These people will likely never hop on the sativa bus.

I saw quite few others agree, so I knew I didn't understand or couldn't comprehend what you said. I have decided to take a break from looking for a good sativa pheno and your post interested me.

I have now grown and smoked around 5 or 6 sativas or haze strains in the last 3 years. Some designed for outdoor northern climates and others for indoors including two of Aces offerings including, A5KH. Either I have a different body chemistry, and I have no problem admitting it could be body chemistry, or a potent sativa is a a oxymoron.

I only dry vape now so I have enjoyed many of the sativa strains I grew, but I ain't huffed nothing potent. Smoking would only reduce potency for me. And, yes I am the type of rope smoker who enjoys potency . Not only potency, but it matters to me.

So if you are saying, "Sativas just don't pack the same punch as a indica or indica hybrid", I am listening, because its takes a lot of time and work pheno hunting for something with potency.

EDIT: I did't read much of the thread until after I posted. Don't want to give the impressions I am taking anyones side. I only report on my own experiences, I have no dog in this hunt, just an old guy looking for information.

 

[Ca++]

Potency.. it's open for debate. If you want to trip away into mild visuals, then a good narrow leaf might be the only way. So there is just no argument for broadleaf being as strong. It can't even do it.
At the same time as your wobbling about like you are drunk, you're at least on your feet and trying though. The broadleaf might of melded you with the furniture. So is that stronger. The narrow leaf can't even do it.

Stereotypically, each involves effects that are attributed only to that group. There is common ground, but that offers nothing to talk about. What we notice most about long narrow leaved plants, is the outstanding fact you can end up tripping. Wanting to do things. Actually achieving some of them to.
The broadleaf is very unlikely to power you up, and much more likely to act as a power down switch.

Wanna get high? I doubt you do tbh, but that's when you smoke narrow leaf plants.
Wanna get mangled up? You are not alone. Find some broadleaf. It should be easy. It's all we see unless we make an effort.

People use the leaf width to describe plants, when they accept there is only Sativa. Not Sativa and that other stuff. There is no other stuff. It is Cannabis Sativa. All of it. If you want to say otherwise, you need to define the line between them. It should be a clear line, with nothing crossing over it. Botanically speaking, it's all Cannabis Sativa. I do accept the notion of Indica and Ruderalis, and will speak of them, and take people seriously that also use the terms. It really is just wishful thinking though. And better linguistically, than talking leaf.

 

[ninox33]

They are a long time evolved in isolation, short time blended into hybrids. The nomenclature would have been better along the lines of afghanica (for indica), indica (for sativas), siberiaca? (ruderalis) and sativa for hemp. All different species (species can interbreed).

Perhaps further evolutions to C. indica americas for Colombian & Mexican strains, C. indica asiatica for SE Asian strains etc. All interesting debates. Genetics if possible now, would be interesting, but not by big pharma.

As a low tolerance every day vaper with Covid wiped tastebuds, obviously the high is critical. Like them all, sativa for brekky and parties, hybrids to smile, indica for sleep and medicating.

If you find what you like and can access it, that’s the desire. Cannabis operates on a very individual level compared to other drugs, is my thoughts.
Some great points of view expressed by all.

 

[Orange's Greenhouse]

well yeah (not saying i speak for the other guy, just giving my 2c), cause you're making absolute statements based upon your experiences. which is short- sighted.

if you had said something like "i personally don't notice much of a difference..." ya know? that makes more sense, right?

and then implying everyone else is basically blowing hot air or it's a placebo... it's patronizing and silly.

I have anecdotal evidence. I say that anecdotal evidence is insufficient. The thread get's presented exclusively anecdotal evidence. And the argument is not settled.
How am I patronizing?

 

[bigtacofarmer]

I saw quite few others agree, so I knew I didn't understand or couldn't comprehend what you said. I have decided to take a break from looking for a good sativa pheno and your post interested me.

I have now grown and smoked around 5 or 6 sativas or haze strains in the last 3 years. Some designed for outdoor northern climates and others for indoors including two of Aces offerings including, A5KH. Either I have a different body chemistry, and I have no problem admitting it could be body chemistry, or a potent sativa is a a oxymoron.

I only dry vape now so I have enjoyed many of the sativa strains I grew, but I ain't huffed nothing potent. Smoking would only reduce potency for me. And, yes I am the type of rope smoker who enjoys potency . Not only potency, but it matters to me.

So if you are saying, "Sativas just don't pack the same punch as a indica or indica hybrid", I am listening, because its takes a lot of time and work pheno hunting for something with potency.

EDIT: I did't read much of the thread until after I posted. Don't want to give the impressions I am taking anyones side. I only report on my own experiences, I have no dog in this hunt, just an old guy looking for information.

I think it's a different type of potency as well as isolating a good phenotype. Or even a simple difference in how what we consider to be high. If you consider how many people have grown and bred faster flowering plants than longer flowering plants, I don't know how many generations further along modern breeding is with that fast ones. But definitely several. So finding a potent hybrid is definitely easier. And the expectations are also different. For me I consider high and low to be different things. Just for language sakes. So I generally do not refer to being super couch locked and stoned out of my mind as being high. I do understand that is what lots of people do call high. I tend to split it simply by does it lift me up (high) of knock me down. I definitely prefer the up types most of the time. I like the motivation, visual enhancement, mood elevation, trippy, introspective and occasionally even the speedy types of high. And only for a day ender or good movie (don't really look at television much) do I want anything that takes away from my energy (I have kids for that). I live an active lifestyle most of the time. I think it is also perspective. What makes me feel high as a kite on a long bike ride does not always feel as potent lounging around the house. Lots of my friends that are not as active think sativas are weak because they want to be super stoned and knocked down. But smoke a haze joint with them before work or some activity and try come back amazed telling me how ridiculous it was. So everyone has different tastes, experiences and usual different plants.

 

[exoticrobotic]

i'm really tired of the dispensaries in my area being saturated with commercial hybrids and LITERALLY ZERO real sativas, and then to see these attitudes from a bygone era still muddying the overton window when it comes to cannabis.

i'm really glad to see so many booming sativa threads on icmag, but when will the market finally settle on the correct answers on diversity?

I hope there is a market for extreme sativas but the length of time and dedication they take to grow well means it will be more than double the price of standard buds.

The real canna aficionados and lovers of sativas mostly decide to grow their own but even then, 18 weeks for a grow?

With the space i have and the time it takes that may not be enough smoke for me until the next 18 weeks have passed so i may be looking to water down the extreme flower time whilst trying to keep the high.

 

[mexcurandero420]

Back in the days 1983 R wrote an article in High Times to stop using Indica's.