Diary White Rhino & Friends. Fall 2021 Grow.

[PCBuds]

You might want to consider buying water.
I can get a gallon of distilled water for a buck, and I can get a 5 gallon bottle of RO water or spring water for about $3.

It would be nice to know what you're starting with.
That's why I like my chemical nutes and my RO water.

PS...
I just Googled that you can boil hard water to soften it.

PSS...
You should get some seeds from ReikoX.
I kick the shit out of them and they just keep growing. Lol

 

[44:86N]

You know aliceklar, it's all just one big experiment, anyway. And there is always something to improve on or learn.

If you do have hard water, stepping it down is not a problem, nor is testing your pH (API pH Test Kit for aquariums).

Most of what you have going on there looks pretty good, really. There may even be multiple things going on. The coco plants might be potassium deficient. MJ1, MJ5, and MW3 in your 12/16 pic for sure. That yellowing between the veins.

I think nitrogen results in a swifter and more even yellowing, as it is trans-located to the new growth faster.

Are your temps low or high? That does effect nutrient uptake. As does the H2O temperature when watering. Ambient room temp is best for your water, not fresh out-of-the tap cold.

Also, the MJ5 at the top of the page, the older pic when it was younger. THAT looks like nitrogen deficiency, and also maybe over watering, or even like it is fighting off a pythium infection.

Have you checked the roots yet? This is another thing I do all the time, if it is possible. Take the plant out of the pot and check out the roots or the moisture content. There have been plenty of occasions when I couldn't exactly tell if a plant needed water until I took it out of the pot. 90% of the time, they do not need that drink.

I have found that by around week 5 or 6 post germination, most of what I have grown likes a good bump of a balanced general purpose feed, like a 20-20-20 around 200ppm. Then watch how they respond. I only use that formula once or twice, and then go on to other formulas, like the Cal/Mag 15-5-15 and a GP 20-10-20. I do like to think of my cannabis fertilizer program, both veg and flower, as a bell curve of usage/dosage.

 

[aliceklar]

You might want to consider buying water.
I can get a gallon of distilled water for a buck, and I can get a 5 gallon bottle of RO water or spring water for about $3.

It would be nice to know what you're starting with.
That's why I like my chemical nutes and my RO water.

PS...
I just Googled that you can boil hard water to soften it.

PSS...
You should get some seeds from ReikoX.
I kick the shit out of them and they just keep growing. Lol

Thanks PC I've already got a 250 litre water butt sitting in my front room Just need to find the motivation and the daylight hours when I can saw a chunk out of my guttering downpipe and install it. At this latitude, this time of year, whilst I'm working, there aint many of those hours... I reckon if I start cutting my tap water 50/50 or 40/60 with rainwater, most of my problems will disappear (well, I mean, my weed growing problems... I have 99 others lol)

Will check ReikoX 's stuff out. What I've seen you growing looks vigorous for sure. but I'm not allowed to buy any more seeds at the moment . From the TRSC I still have some original Johaar to grow out and back up, and more Afghan mix, and some Nanda Devi, and Syrian and Malawi Gold... and want to do another Highland Thai run... and I have a whole fuckton of F1s that are calling to me (Danceworld x white Rhino, & Medical Mass x Highland Thai are calling my name). and from RQS I have Sour Diesel and Shogun that I havent popped yet. and... and... all the other crosses and experiments I have going.

yeah. once those are done, and I'm letting myself buy seeds again, I'd like to try out Edpurt and New Caledonian and Zamaldelica from dubi (ACE), and some of VerdantGreen 's ChemD & White Rhino stuff, and (if/when they open shop again) Lullaby x Blockhead & Schnazz #3 from Chimera. But not yet.

 

[aliceklar]

You know aliceklar, it's all just one big experiment, anyway. And there is always something to improve on or learn.

If you do have hard water, stepping it down is not a problem, nor is testing your pH (API pH Test Kit for aquariums).

Most of what you have going on there looks pretty good, really. There may even be multiple things going on. The coco plants might be potassium deficient. MJ1, MJ5, and MW3 in your 12/16 pic for sure. That yellowing between the veins.

I think nitrogen results in a swifter and more even yellowing, as it is trans-located to the new growth faster.

Are your temps low or high? That does effect nutrient uptake. As does the H2O temperature when watering. Ambient room temp is best for your water, not fresh out-of-the tap cold.

Also, the MJ5 at the top of the page, the older pic when it was younger. THAT looks like nitrogen deficiency, and also maybe over watering, or even like it is fighting off a pythium infection.

Have you checked the roots yet? This is another thing I do all the time, if it is possible. Take the plant out of the pot and check out the roots or the moisture content. There have been plenty of occasions when I couldn't exactly tell if a plant needed water until I took it out of the pot. 90% of the time, they do not need that drink.

I have found that by around week 5 or 6 post germination, most of what I have grown likes a good bump of a balanced general purpose feed, like a 20-20-20 around 200ppm. Then watch how they respond. I only use that formula once or twice, and then go on to other formulas, like the Cal/Mag 15-5-15 and a GP 20-10-20. I do like to think of my cannabis fertilizer program, both veg and flower, as a bell curve of usage/dosage.

Thanks for the reflections, 44:86N ! Every day is a school-day.

Temps are OK - minimum 21C and around 25C most of the time. Floor is well insulated and not cold (its an indoor grow on an upper floor). Water sits for a couple of days before use to off-gas, is around 18-19C. Havent tried taking any of the newbs out of their pots to check roots yet, but I can see white root growth emerging from the drain holes.

Water issues I hope will be fixed by installing a water butt & cutting my rock hard tap with rainwater. pH has been on point for the past few weeks - I've been adjusting with nitric acid initially to take the 7.5 tapwater down to about 6, and then making fine adjustments with citric acid after adding nutes (I'm using Canna A+B @ 1ml-2ml each per litre) to bring it down to 5.5-5.7. It comes out at about 6 or 6.1. ppm in is about 800-1000

Still finding my way with watering in a coco/perlite mix. Lots of conflicting advice out there - some say let it dry a bit, others recommend constant soaking. I'd been expecting to water daily, but has been more like every 2 or 3 days as they are just not drinking that fast and I'm wary of drowning them. I'm watering to run-off, with nutes in every watering. Maybe increase the ventilation? Extractor fan is on about 6 x 15 minutes per day. Its pretty overpowered for the modest size of the cupboard, even on low setting.

The plants that are doing the best are the ones in pure perlite, which get watered twice daily. After that, the plants that had been rescued earlier from crappy compost and repotted in taller pots with coco/perlite are the healthiest looking (SQxA, GG, White Rhino)

 

[44:86N]

Still finding my way with watering in a coco/perlite mix. Lots of conflicting advice out there - some say let it dry a bit, others recommend constant soaking. I'd been expecting to water daily, but has been more like every 2 or 3 days as they are just not drinking that fast and I'm wary of drowning them. I'm watering to run-off, with nutes in every watering. Maybe increase the ventilation? Extractor fan is on about 6 x 15 minutes per day. Its pretty overpowered for the modest size of the cupboard, even on low setting.

The plants that are doing the best are the ones in pure perlite, which get watered twice daily. After that, the plants that had been rescued earlier from crappy compost and repotted in taller pots with coco/perlite are the healthiest looking (SQxA, GG, White Rhino)

Yes, keep in mind that sometimes the conflicting advise is mostly due to getting the order of advice a little mixed up.

You can also think of your water routine as a bell-curve -- less and lightly early on to pull the roots down into the media and tone them; a little dry down will also tone the stem growth. When your plants have fully rooted out the pot, and have sized up, you will be approaching the "curve up" on the bell, and can certainly pick up on the watering. That late cycle veg into the first 3 to 4 weeks of flowering will be peak watering, then, as the growth slows and the flowering takes center stage, you begin to wind down on the watering and the feeding.

About a decade ago, I read a study on water usage by plants grown in pots in peat-based mixes. I think it was out of Stanford. There is a zone, a ratio between air space and water content, where a plant can most efficiently uptake the water and nutrients. That zone is 60% moisture content to 40% air space. This zone, and the percentiles of space then slide past each other, trading places as the water content is reduced and the air content increased --- above 60% air content and below 40% water content, plants have a harder time up taking the H2O. This is why I say let your media go at least 70% dry, especially on recently potted plants. This is probably why your plants in total perlite are doing well, the ratio is probably close to 50/50 almost all the time. That's basically a passive hydroponic system.

Remember that the roots of plants uptake oxygen and give off CO2 and other waste gasses. Roots don't photosynthesize, they cellular metabolize. They have to breath.

 

[44:86N]

And oh yeah.

I meant to mention that API pH Down for freshwater aquariums is a mild sulfuric acid. I've used a few different acids over the years, and find sulfuric is the best. You will also be supplementing sulfur.

You will just kind of have to feel out the dosage.

 

[aliceklar]

And oh yeah.

I meant to mention that API pH Down for freshwater aquariums is a mild sulfuric acid. I've used a few different acids over the years, and find sulfuric is the best. You will also be supplementing sulfur.

You will just kind of have to feel out the dosage.

Thanks 44! In what ways is sulfuric better? have not heard of that one being used for weed pH before. Nitric seems to do the trick nicely of breaking through the crazy high calcium carbonate concentration in my tapwater (whereas citric only seems to have a very time-limited effect before the pH creeps back up again - which is why I use Nitric as my primary amendment, and citric to get the last fine tuning)

Btw, thanks also for the "bell curve" analogy. that makes so much sense! Plants are a process, not static things... so of course their needs change over time! lightbulb!

 

[44:86N]

Thanks 44! In what ways is sulfuric better? have not heard of that one being used for weed pH before. Nitric seems to do the trick nicely of breaking through the crazy high calcium carbonate concentration in my tapwater (whereas citric only seems to have a very time-limited effect before the pH creeps back up again - which is why I use Nitric as my primary amendment, and citric to get the last fine tuning)

Btw, thanks also for the "bell curve" analogy. that makes so much sense! Plants are a process, not static things... so of course their needs change over time! lightbulb!

Well, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Sulfur is a critical micro nutrient for plants. And, sulfuric acid is cheap and very effective, too.

If you are using Nitric acid, you will be supplementing extra nitrogen, but really not much to make any difference.

After reading what f-e said in another thread about coco earlier today, I looked into the different deficiencies again, and what you have there is most likely magnesium related, not potassium. My bad.

Potassium deficiency will eventually lead to leaf tip and edging burn/necrosis, which also looks a lot like fertilizer burn.

whereas citric only seems to have a very time-limited effect before the pH creeps back up again

Are you measuring the pH of the soil? How are you doing that? Or the water?

Do a professional water test, if you have not. It will show you everything in your water, including organic load, which is a big factor for my well, which is in a rural agricultural area.

If you go with JR Peter's, and let them know what kind of acid you are using, they will give you a specific dosing amount, for the pH you want. Your well water won't change that frequently, so just once can dial it in for a long time.

Yeah, thinking about things in terms of bell curve in relation crop production helps. It was a light bulb for me, too. Even in what we like to think of as controlled environments, everything is constantly changing and dynamic, if you are dealing with living things, and you have to respond appropriately to get your plants to grow up to their full potential.

 

[aliceklar]

First few grafts I did seem to have taken... so I tried a few more. Experimenting with different sizes, ages, lengths, immature leaves. It is very reminiscent of cloning, but easier in some ways as you dont have to pamper them for weeks afterwards. Sharp blades are sharp. Caution! Had an accident when grafting on to the GG & took off a fan leaf. Better than a finger

Host: SQA2 - smaller of the two Sherbet Queen crosses but same form and similar vigour to bigger sibling.
Scions: Medical Mass; Green Gelato; Purple Bud

So cuts of all the known fems backed up on one nice vigorous rootstock. Sex of SQxA2 undetermined - have already got some cuttings in coco/perlite, and this and other cuttings will go in a glass of water into flower to find out.

Host: SQA1 - Burlier of the two. Backed up with its sibling & both the BSGxAfghans. So - no idea of the sex of any of them yet. other cuttings in progress to clone and sex.

Host: Green Gelato (RQS, fem). Similar form and leaf feel to the SQAs, bit smaller. Doesnt hate me too much after trying to kill it. Nice little scion of BSG x Johaar - seemed to take really quickly. relatively sturdy (tho still green and sappy) bit of stalk, with the tiniest budding leafy side branch - so minimal transpiration. Suspect this will be female. Will need to keep any eye on it as the seed plant is a rapidly sprouting beast I've had to prune again today.

 

[44:86N]

That's super cool work, aliceklar! Intriguing way to pick up and shorten the crop time.

Thanks for sharing!

 

[aliceklar]

That's super cool work, aliceklar! Intriguing way to pick up and shorten the crop time.

Thanks for sharing!

Cheers 44. This is only my second go at grafting (my first attempts last grow failed - I think partly because of low humidity, partly because of low temps, partly because the plants were not in a healthy rapid growth phase). Am inspired by growers such as Darpa and zif. Not sure if all this most recent batch will take - the Purple Bud scion is very small, and I messed up the tape holding the join (too high - both me and the tape lol). Still, its not as difficult as I imagined before I'd tried it, especially if both scion and host are growing well at the time of grafting, and the join is clean.

I'm doing this partly so that I can back up more strains / phenos in a small space, partly so that I can do multi-strain single-plant SCROGs. It seems like a game-changer for breeding - making it more feasible to keep multiple males as well as females. I always aim to grow for variety rather than quantity, but thats a problem because its harder to keep plants in small pots healthy. With Multiple phenos/strains on a single rootstock, I hope to get the best of all worlds - quality, quantity, and variety (at the cost of some extra work and extra vegging time).

 

[bigpeter]

multi-strain single-plant SCROGs..

Now that does sound interesting.

 

[44:86N]

I'm doing this partly so that I can back up more strains / phenos in a small space, partly so that I can do multi-strain single-plant SCROGs. It seems like a game-changer for breeding - making it more feasible to keep multiple males as well as females. I always aim to grow for variety rather than quantity, but thats a problem because its harder to keep plants in small pots healthy. With Multiple phenos/strains on a single rootstock, I hope to get the best of all worlds - quality, quantity, and variety (at the cost of some extra work and extra vegging time).

I like the way you think! Anything and everything we can do to keep our own personal carbon footprints down!

That's a beautiful and elegant solution.

Way to go!!!

 

[zif]

Cheers 44. This is only my second go at grafting (my first attempts last grow failed - I think partly because of low humidity, partly because of low temps, partly because the plants were not in a healthy rapid growth phase). Am inspired by growers such as Darpa and zif. Not sure if all this most recent batch will take - the Purple Bud scion is very small, and I messed up the tape holding the join (too high - both me and the tape lol). Still, its not as difficult as I imagined before I'd tried it, especially if both scion and host are growing well at the time of grafting, and the join is clean.

I'm doing this partly so that I can back up more strains / phenos in a small space, partly so that I can do multi-strain single-plant SCROGs. It seems like a game-changer for breeding - making it more feasible to keep multiple males as well as females. I always aim to grow for variety rather than quantity, but thats a problem because its harder to keep plants in small pots healthy. With Multiple phenos/strains on a single rootstock, I hope to get the best of all worlds - quality, quantity, and variety (at the cost of some extra work and extra vegging time).

Happy to hear your grafts are working! Isn’t it odd that it’s barely mentioned in most grow books? Once you see how easy it is, man, it’s a game changer.

Not a scrog, but five plants grafted together, flowering as one. At one week:

And 2.5 weeks of 11/13:

 

[aliceklar]

After reading what f-e said in another thread about coco earlier today, I looked into the different deficiencies again, and what you have there is most likely magnesium related, not potassium. My bad.

Potassium deficiency will eventually lead to leaf tip and edging burn/necrosis, which also looks a lot like fertilizer burn.

Are you measuring the pH of the soil? How are you doing that? Or the water?

Do a professional water test, if you have not. It will show you everything in your water, including organic load, which is a big factor for my well, which is in a rural agricultural area.

So... do you think it is a magnesium deficit? Or an excess of something else that might be locking Mg out?

In terms of measuring the pH, I havent done a soil test - I've been measuring run-off. I have a meter - its a reasonably good quality one intended for use with aquariums, etc. Most of my plants are now in either perlite or a coco/perlite mix.

I've got a full water analysis from my water company, key components as follows:

Ammonium as NH4 0.17 mg/l
Nitrate as NO3 32 mg/l
Sulphate as SO4 54 mg/l
Calcium Carbonate CaCo3 265 mg/l
Copper as Cu 0.02 mg/l
Magnesium 5 mg/l
Sodium 34.5 mg/l
Chloride as Cl 50 mg/l

 

[aliceklar]

Happy to hear your grafts are working! Isn’t it odd that it’s barely mentioned in most grow books? Once you see how easy it is, man, it’s a game changer.

Not a scrog, but five plants grafted together, flowering as one.

Am a fan of your chimeras, zif. And is that composite plant a Chimera chimera by any chance?

 

[zif]

Am a fan of your chimeras, zif. And is that composite plant a Chimera chimera by any chance?

I made S1s from an excellent NL2 x Chem D bx mom I found in seeds by Chimera. The rootstock and three scions are different examples of that S1. I also put on an old Durban Poison x mystery bagseed cross I made around '99!

 

[PCBuds]

So... do you think it is a magnesium deficit? Or an excess of something else that might be locking Mg out?

Calcium Carbonate CaCo3 265 mg/l

Magnesium 5 mg/l

I think it's a deficit.

When you were watering with tap water, the Calcium in the Calcium Carbonate wasn't available to the plant.

Then when you started using lots of PH down there was lots of Calcium ions available to the plant, but the Magnesium level was still low.

By the time you started adding Epsom Salts the damage to the leaves was already done, with some plants being more sensitive to the lack of Magnesium.

I think you're on the right track with the Epsom Salts but it might be hard to know how much to use.
Perhaps you can find out how much Calcium is released by how much acid is used?


This is the label of my CalMag.
The ratio of Calcium to Magnesium is 10 to 3.

That's my take on it anyway (and remember, I make shit up. Lol)

 

[aliceklar]

I made S1s from an excellent NL2 x Chem D bx mom I found in seeds by Chimera. The rootstock and three scions are different examples of that S1. I also put on an old Durban Poison x mystery bagseed cross I made around '99!

Your grafts are so cool. Am loving this. Love the history that plants have too - bagseed seems to play a central role in most peoples weed experience . These things go deep. Not just a product, but a living line, passed hand to hand, grown with love, since the first ancestor threw some of those aromatic herbs on a fire and got the giggles.

Also thinking how apt "chimera" is as a word for a grafted plant.

chimera
noun. An organism, organ, or part consisting of two or more tissues of different genetic composition, produced as a result of organ transplant, grafting, or genetic engineering.

 

[aliceklar]

I think it's a deficit.

When you were watering with tap water, the Calcium in the Calcium Carbonate wasn't available to the plant.

Then when you started using lots of PH down there was lots of Calcium ions available to the plant, but the Magnesium level was still low.

By the time you started adding Epsom Salts the damage to the leaves was already done, with some plants being more sensitive to the lack of Magnesium.

I think you're on the right track with the Epsom Salts but it might be hard to know how much to use.
Perhaps you can find out how much Calcium is released by how much acid is used?

The ratio of Calcium to Magnesium is 10 to 3.

That's my take on it anyway (and remember, I make shit up. Lol)

That makes sense. I make the ratio 10 to 3, too. I guess maybe half of that 265mg/l CaCO3 would become available as Calcium Nitrate Ca(NO3)2 after the Nitric acid? less? I dunno. My chemistry is basic at best. I'm going to carry on with foliar spray and with some Epsom salts added to the nute mix. Aiming for c +20 or 30 ppm from the Epsom salts. Might also increase the dosage of the Canna A+B. Canna A is 0.4% Mg, Canna B is 1.1% Mg. so overall 0.75% Mg.